Counterfeit 1793 Wreath dye break?'s
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29 posts in this topic

Hey all  :)

Right to the point, 4x Dye Breaks, 2 obverse & 2 reverse that I've found so far, ok maybe 5 or 6 sorry all the thin hair has a few breaks x2 strands super minor, in my opinion.

I've said that this would be impossible to replicate, so I've added a few pictures.

Obverse few in the hair & one in the leaf sprig which broke off and is now in-between two of the leafs.

One reverse right side top leaf which looks like it broke off in two pieces jettisoned to the left top leafs, then the other right under the top right leaf, which it also looks like it jettisoned to the left top leafs.

So my question is, are these Dye Breaks?

So I'll give this a whirl of course I'm not super savvy, that and we would change it to whatever names work best. :)

"Mint Dye Break Impact Lighting" not this scenario for it would've been pressed.

So like "Mint Rod Impact Lighting" we are using mint coinage accessories or counterfeit accessories, Mint Rod really isn't a rod I might be wrong, I'm thinking it's like a nail punch made of Sterling Silver with the mark engraved into it to strike/impact the coins mint mark,, 
Dye break isn't truly being impacted cause this one is being pressed together and a piece snaps off or in this case pieces, thus reflecting the same light that is shown in blurry pics for mint rod impact lighting minus the perfect round , just dye breaks seem to work different so off angles pictures work too pick up the light reflections with clarity, there is 2 breaks on the reverse that light up, where clean breaks are I was able to pick up a reflection.

So right off, I know the dye impact is wrong in this scenario, for this one was pressed.

Of course this is all opinion,

Of the three reverses mine is in the middle.

Thanks all

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First, the "1793 cent" you show is a fake. A counterfeit. Not made at the Philadelphia Mint. It should be stamped "COPY" to comply with law, or destroyed.

Second, the word is "die" not "dye." A die is a metal rod with a design engraved (or pressed) incuse into the metal. When hardened, a steel die is used to strike coins. It requires an obverse, reverse and edge die to create a struck coin.

Third, your phrase ""Mint Dye Break Impact Lighting" has no numismatic meaning at all. Explain what you are talking about so that others can respond in a reasonable manner. "Mint Rod Impact Lighting" is also meaningless. Explain.

Fourth, the thin straight lines are scratches in the die. The lumps are impacts in the die from some unknown object or possibly a small steel punch used by the counterfeiter to imitate berries and other parts of the design.

If this were an authentic coin, the discussion might be quite interesting. As it is, there is almost nothing of value it spending time explaining or trying to figure out what a crook did.

Edited by RWB
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I would respond, thou I can sense it's the same, therefore not even worth it.

I'll proceed the tale elsewhere, for this story is far from over.

Thanks all have a good one

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If you don't know the proper numismatic terms, then use simple, ordinary, English language to explain what you are trying to say.  Your posts just don't make any sense.  Your close up pictures are excellent however and demonstrate one thing very well.  Makers of fake coins that are made to sell cheaply and in large numbers, do not use the care in manufacture that the mint would use.  The "coin" shows an enormous number of scratches, bumps, dings, and blundered devices on the die that would never show up on a genuine mint product with any quality control whatsoever.

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On 8/29/2021 at 2:46 PM, JKK said:

So do any of you go to special museum exhibits? A club buddy of mine and I recently went down to Salem to catch the last day of the Gold of the Caliphs exhibit at Willamette U's art museum. This is right behind the Oregon State Capitol, so naturally there was an anti-vax and anti-mask protest going on, which we ignored. Anyway, it was a most impressive collection of early and middle gold coins, plus an example of the small beanlike silver coin (Lydia, I think) believed to be history's oldest coin issue. Most intriguing and impressive. Anyone seen any other good ones recently?

Man, does that sound cool!!! I'm totally and completely jealous!!! I love museums and I'll go to pretty much any museum displaying anything.  In the little village I live in, we have a clock museum that I've been to a bunch of times.  Sadly, I've never had the opportunity to see any coin exhibits in a museum.  I'd love the chance though!

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On 8/29/2021 at 11:54 AM, Mohawk said:

Man, does that sound cool!!! I'm totally and completely jealous!!! I love museums and I'll go to pretty much any museum displaying anything.  In the little village I live in, we have a clock museum that I've been to a bunch of times.  Sadly, I've never had the opportunity to see any coin exhibits in a museum.  I'd love the chance though!

They happen now and then. In this case it was worth an hour and a half drive (plus we got to hit a nearby coin place Jason likes; only coin shop I've ever seen owned and operated by a blind guy). I love pretty much all museums and they're one of the places where I'm totally okay with kids dashing about and making a little noise, so long as they don't hurt the exhibits or damage anything else. We were at the Idaho State Museum and there was a pack of first-graders running around like ring-tailed apes, and the docent came out to apologize to us. "Please, ma'am," I said, "the children are enjoying the museum. That is what they are for. Hopefully they will love it so much they will run home and ask their parents when they can go to more museums, and as time comes along, they'll better understand what they see. And one day, they will raise their own children to love the museum as they did long ago. So please, with respect, no apologies. This is how museums have a future." I guess she was used to stuffed shirts griping, but I think that's the absolute wrong attitude.

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When we went to visit my son at Princeton University, my wife wanted to visit the art museum.  I wasn't too keen on it, but went along. Now, the paintings didn't do much for me, but they had a display of Byzantine gold coins that were phenomenal.  Some of the other ancient displays were amazing as well, such as complete ancient tile mosaic floors.  I had a difficult time actually walking on them though!

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The university has a good collection of colonial and pre Federal coinage as well.  Unfortunately it is not on display.  It is supposed to be available for viewing to researchers, but I am sure it would take a lot of jumping through hoops to see them.

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On 8/29/2021 at 2:26 PM, l.cutler said:

The university has a good collection of colonial and pre Federal coinage as well.  Unfortunately it is not on display.  It is supposed to be available for viewing to researchers, but I am sure it would take a lot of jumping through hoops to see them.

Academia.edu beckons to you.

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If you are in Washington DC look up the fantastic Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine) collection at Dumbarton Oaks. Almost all  museums in Washington are free. also.

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I’ve actually yet to really spend time with the Smithsonian coin exhibit. I’ve been to the museums many times but just glossed over the coins. It was before I had a lot of interest. Next time I’m in DC and have time I’m going to make it a priority. I was in DC week before last but spent the little free time I had hitting a few coin shops. 

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On 8/29/2021 at 3:13 PM, JKK said:

They happen now and then. In this case it was worth an hour and a half drive (plus we got to hit a nearby coin place Jason likes; only coin shop I've ever seen owned and operated by a blind guy). I love pretty much all museums and they're one of the places where I'm totally okay with kids dashing about and making a little noise, so long as they don't hurt the exhibits or damage anything else. We were at the Idaho State Museum and there was a pack of first-graders running around like ring-tailed apes, and the docent came out to apologize to us. "Please, ma'am," I said, "the children are enjoying the museum. That is what they are for. Hopefully they will love it so much they will run home and ask their parents when they can go to more museums, and as time comes along, they'll better understand what they see. And one day, they will raise their own children to love the museum as they did long ago. So please, with respect, no apologies. This is how museums have a future." I guess she was used to stuffed shirts griping, but I think that's the absolute wrong attitude.

There are few things on this Earth which bring me joy like seeing young people enjoying a museum!!! It gives me such hope for the future when I see young people enjoying something positive, valuable and downright amazing like museums.  And you're right.....it's that exact thing which ensures the future of museums.  I know when I was a child, nothing would excite me like a museum trip.  Many kids like amusement parks and things like that....but for me, it was museums that got me excited like that.  Museums and nature centers.  

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On 8/29/2021 at 3:41 PM, l.cutler said:

When we went to visit my son at Princeton University, my wife wanted to visit the art museum.  I wasn't too keen on it, but went along. Now, the paintings didn't do much for me, but they had a display of Byzantine gold coins that were phenomenal.  Some of the other ancient displays were amazing as well, such as complete ancient tile mosaic floors.  I had a difficult time actually walking on them though!

It all would have done it for me, but the Byzantine coins.......that would have been the highlight of the visit!! Those and the other ancient coins, of course.  I'm a complete sucker for a good ancient....but you guys already know that ;)

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On 8/29/2021 at 6:31 PM, RWB said:

If you are in Washington DC look up the fantastic Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine) collection at Dumbarton Oaks. Almost all  museums in Washington are free. also.

I've never been to D.C., but if I do get there, Dumbarton Oaks is the absolute top of my list to see for the exact reason you mention, Roger.    I've seen photos of some of their Eastern Roman Empire collection online....but pics are just pics.  Actually being in the room with the artifacts....now that's when the magic happens!

The Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History is right up there, too.  I love fossils and ancient life.......just as much as I love coins, actually.

Edited by Mohawk
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On 8/29/2021 at 3:38 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Princeton has a wonderful Graphic Arts Department that frequently exhibits banknotes. I happened to be in the area in 2010 and caught an exhibition "Money on Paper" one of the better exhibits I've viewed. Princeton has also published many, many papers on banknote design, engraving and manufacturing. It's one of my go to resources for banknote info.

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I keep the exhibit catalog with me at work, just to flip through it from time to time.

My office is about a mile from the Princeton campus. I’ll check it out next time I’m there. Pre covid I was living there but we went virtual long term which I am more than happy about. 

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On 8/29/2021 at 7:45 PM, RWB said:

If you love "fossils and ancient life" you should also visit Florida. They are all over the place, and so are real zombies!  :)

My downstairs neighbor is a transplant from Florida and, man, does he have some stories!!!! I think I'll stick to the fossils and ancient life in museums!!  

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On 8/29/2021 at 10:31 PM, Mohawk said:

My downstairs neighbor is a transplant from Florida

...well, don't let 'em take root.....! You'll end up with iguanas dripping from the neighbor's branches! Wheres Audrey II when needed?

:)

Edited by RWB
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Wow that’s the most successful takeover I have ever witnessed and I thank you!  
We have a guy in our little town who single handily has built a model railroad museum and it’s turned into a full sized one. Situated next to the operating railway the man just never said no!  Thanks everyone!  This forum gives life lessons. 🤠James Z

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HEY!!  just because i have a littl moss growing on me doesnt mean that i am not still moving!!  hahhaahah!

Edited by JT2
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