Possible record 1886 Type1 Brown Indian Head Cent 2 2

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:14 PM, Ron Smith said:

I'm pretty much done here guys but I do have a few things to say. To those that say that the 67 1886 is superior to mine I guess my question to you is while the pictures I presented to you of my coins are so close they sit on your eyelids you choose to defend pictures of a coin that is so far away it's hard to make out much of anything. Let me ask you this. If those two microscopic brown dots that you say destroy my coin were on that coin in the 67 holder would you be able to tell from the distance that holder was away that you choose to defend. That was the exact picture used by Heritage Auctions. I did blow up the 67 and there are light and dark patches all over it. If you were to break it out I would bet it wouldn't get a 65. If the pictures you show of a coin are only taken from a distance there is good reason for it. They are trying to hide something. I guess I came on here for opinions which I was given. Now I will give mine. Coins in old holders on almost every occasion I have bought them and I have been dealing in Indians almost exclusively for over 30 years  have been over graded. Long before grade manipulation was ever thought of back in the mid 80's when this craziness started loose grading was no big deal. Once the number of highly graded coins from each year were established grading became much more strict in order to keep the prices high for those in shall we say the elite class. Obviously if you flood the market with a bunch of 66 or 67 graded coins it drops the price and the bigshots that spend all of the money with the supposedly  top notch coin grading companies get pissed off watching the value of their precious investments tumble. What better way to stop that then tighten the grading. Go on Heritage Auctions and look for yourself. A high majority of the top graded coins are in old holders. Are they better than the coins graded today. Nope. Not even close. Most likely worse. Its all about the money.  

If you believe that after a certain point, “grading became much more strict in order to keep prices high...”, how do you explain the obvious gradeflation over a period of many years, which has been apparent to so many market participants? And often (if not usually) that gradeflation has led to lower, not higher prices. Your viewpoint has been largely contradicted by grading, population reports and prices.

[Woods020]

I gotta agree with Mark on this one. What you are saying is completely contradictory to the often discussed gradeflatation that has occurred. I can’t say I’ve been in it nearly as long as either of you, but everyone talks about grades loosening. People pay more for coins in old holders thinking they will upgrade simply because they were graded before the loosening. Not to say that is a smart move but one done every day. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Woods020

[Mohawk]

Ron,

I'm seeing a lot of sour grapes here.  I do not think you honestly wanted opinions.  You wanted opinions that agreed with yours......the title of your post, when combined with the content you've uploaded in this thread since, even screams that.......I mean "Possible record 1886 Type1 Brown Indian Head Cent"....what else can be inferred from the combination of that title and responses?  I think we were supposed to fawn all over your coin and tell you that you did indeed have some kind of record breaking coin.  But we didn't.  And when we didn't, you didn't like it and tried to sell it to us.  When Mark said that we weren't the ones who would be grading your coins, he was telling the truth.  I don't work for NGC and neither does Mark nor Roger.  We don't have a dog in this fight.  I responded with the desire to honestly help you as best I could.  Everyone else did as well.  From where I'm sitting, someone expecting an MS 67 BN or better on that first Indian Cent was in for a disappointment.  Based on the pics you provided, I think Mark was generous with his MS 66.  I was thinking MS 65 BN.  And that is the honest truth.  That's what I would grade that coin.  A nice coin, but not a record breaker in any sense of the word.  Of course, I don't have the coin in hand, but based on your images, that's what I saw.

We see this kind of thing here a lot.  People come here and think they have some kind of big rarity or record high grade coin......and most of the time, they do not. This is that kind of situation.  It is what it is.  But your situation is a little different than the usual we see.  You still have a good coin.  It's no record breaker, but it's still nice to someone who likes Indian Cents.  Its value at MS 65 BN still makes it worth grading.  If I'm correct on the grade, $750 is a decent value for a coin.  If Mark is correct at MS 66 BN, then it's a $1500 coin per NGC Coin Explorer, so it's even better......Unless you already paid MS 67 money for it.  Then things aren't so good.  Grading it wouldn't be a waste of money, provided you don't already have MS 67 money into it..  I hope Mark is correct with that MS 66 grade for you, I honestly do.  I wish you luck with your submission.

[bsshog40]

It always gets me when someone posts a coin and asks for thoughts/opinions of the coin and then they don't like the feedback. As already mentioned,  coins are hard to grade by pictures and basically opinions are only what a person can give by the pictures provided. A coin can only be accurately graded in-hand. You have the coin and you say you have the experience,  so get it graded. No need to get upset by what others think, they are only providing what you asked for. 

[Mohawk]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:50 AM, bsshog40 said:

It always gets me when someone posts a coin and asks for thoughts/opinions of the coin and then they don't like the feedback. As already mentioned,  coins are hard to grade by pictures and basically opinions are only what a person can give by the pictures provided. A coin can only be accurately graded in-hand. You have the coin and you say you have the experience,  so get it graded. No need to get upset by what others think, they are only providing what you asked for. 

Well said Bsshog!!! All I can say is....

[RWB]

PS: Please....stop looking at the stupid label. Only the coins count. Look at them - very carefully and be critical. There's a post elsewhere where a coin labeled "MS-64" was rejected by CAC and the owner told by JA it was AU -- a "BU rub" or "cabinet friction" nonsense label. Fact was, the TPG likely screwed up and the owner is stuck.

There is no such thing as an Uncirculated coin "with rub" or "with lite cabinet friction." It's horse hocky; donkey dust; fresh dino poo!

[Mohawk]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:06 PM, RWB said:

PS: Please....stop looking at the stupid label. Only the coins count. Look at them - very carefully and be critical. There's a post elsewhere where a coin labeled "MS-64" was rejected by CAC and the owner told by JA it was AU -- a "BU rub" or "cabinet friction" nonsense label. Fact was, the TPG likely screwed up and the owner is stuck.

There is no such thing as an Uncirculated coin "with rub" or "with lite cabinet friction." It's horse hocky; donkey dust; fresh dino poo!

And again......

[MarkFeld]

On 8/28/2021 at 7:06 PM, RWB said:

PS: Please....stop looking at the stupid label. Only the coins count. Look at them - very carefully and be critical. There's a post elsewhere where a coin labeled "MS-64" was rejected by CAC and the owner told by JA it was AU -- a "BU rub" or "cabinet friction" nonsense label. Fact was, the TPG likely screwed up and the owner is stuck.

There is no such thing as an Uncirculated coin "with rub" or "with lite cabinet friction." It's horse hocky; donkey dust; fresh dino poo!

Maybe the TPG didn’t screw up and it’s unlikely that the owner is “stuck”.

[RWB]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:24 PM, MarkFeld said:

Maybe the TPG didn’t screw up and it’s unlikely that the owner is “stuck”.

Rather, it's unlikely that JA invented abrasion on the "MS-64" coin, and the owner is decidedly stuck if he bought the coin at MS-64 pricing. If it were sent to the TPG by the owner, then he is still out the possible expense of having it re-evaluated, and clearly out the emotional stress of having a "nice coin" shot down by an impartial expert -- one who very likely took far more time to make an examination than the TPGs indentured staff.

[MarkFeld]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:03 PM, RWB said:

Rather, it's unlikely that JA invented abrasion on the "MS-64" coin, and the owner is decidedly stuck if he bought the coin at MS-64 pricing. If it were sent to the TPG by the owner, then he is still out the possible expense of having it re-evaluated, and clearly out the emotional stress of having a "nice coin" shot down by an impartial expert -- one who very likely took far more time to make an examination than the TPGs indentured staff.

Regardless of what JA thinks of it, if the owner of the coin offered it for sale at the going rate for an average MS64 example, it would likely sell. That’s because enough people have confidence in PCGS’s opinion for the coin to be liquid at the assigned grade. Consequently, the owner is not “stuck”.

[RWB]

He is stuck. Any collector with some portion of a brain will look at the coin, not the label, and offer AU value for the coin - that is all it is "worth." What you suggest is a "pass it to another sucker" approach. A thoroughly disreputable arrangement to any real numismatist would immediately reject. Just as in real estate, if "you" know something about what is being sold, it MUST be disclosed. Will that happen? Not with the approach implied.

Edited August 29, 2021 by RWB

[MarkFeld]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:20 PM, RWB said:

He is stuck. Any collector with some portion of a brain will look at the coin, not the label, and offer AU value for the coin - that is all it is "worth." What you suggest is a "pass it to another sucker" approach. A thoroughly disreputable arrangement to any real numismatist would immediately reject. Just as in real estate, if "you" know something about what is being sold, it MUST be disclosed. Will that happen? Not with the approach Mark suggests.

We don’t know what the coin looks like or what others would think of it. 
I didn’t suggest anything - I mentioned the realities of the marketplace. And unlike you, I’m not going to judge PCGS or the coin, as I haven’t seen it. 

[dleonard-3]

Beautiful group of cents.  No matter what they grade out as, I would be proud of them.

[Conder101]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:20 PM, RWB said:

He is stuck. Any collector with some portion of a brain will look at the coin, not the label, and offer AU value for the coin

But there are a lot of collectors that will look at the label and not the coin and they WILL pay the MS-64 price.  So he isn't "stuck" the greater fool theory still works, at least until the slab becomes well enough known that greater fools are harder to find.  At which point it gets sent back for regrading.  If the grade drops he get compensated under the guarantee, if it doesn't drop it has new "clothing" and serial number and the greater fool race begins again.

Is this a good thing, no probably not, but it is how the real world tends to work.

[Henri Charriere]

This is precisely why I love this Forum!  Dare I infer the obvious? Only two days to debate the matter and nearly four months later -- Covid-19 notwithstanding -- a captive audience awaits the results with baited breath.

Regardless the outcome, the thread elicited a remarkable breadth of knowledge and intriguing revelations including the use of the term business strike by a collector of coins from a bygone era when such a term was not used.  Even more fascinating is the priceless command performance put on by @RWB!  Overlook the "horse hockey" and "indentured staff" and try to recall the last time any member delved deep enough into an element, in this case, copper, to suggest, like DNA, it has its own unique signature. Absolutely 💯% correct!  

To the OP:  You are not alone. We have all experienced the agony of defeat but at the end of the day you still have your impressive collection of Indians and yours is the only opinion that matters. 😉 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:12 PM, Mohawk said:

If I'm correct on the grade, $750 is a decent value for a coin.  If Mark is correct at MS 66 BN, then it's a $1500 coin per NGC Coin Explorer, so it's even better......Unless you already paid MS 67 money for it.  Then things aren't so good.  Grading it wouldn't be a waste of money, provided you don't already have MS 67 money into it..  I hope Mark is correct with that MS 66 grade for you, I honestly do.  I wish you luck with your submission.

How much does an MS67 sell for ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:07 PM, Coinbuf said:

Good luck with your submissions, I hope you will stop back and update us with your results.  I'm questioning a couple myself, however trying to judge surfaces and even color from photos can be tricky and even more so when in flips.

Nice-looking coins....not familiar with them but some decent pics....impossible to grade from the pics given the lighting angles and somewhat blurry shots among the group, but few of us take really great pics.

Ron....let us know how the coins come back. 

[Coinbuf]

On 12/14/2021 at 8:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Nice-looking coins....not familiar with them but some decent pics....impossible to grade from the pics given the lighting angles and somewhat blurry shots among the group, but few of us take really great pics.

Ron....let us know how the coins come back. 

At the time the OP posted this thread there was only one MS67 in BN, now there are 5 in 67 and one in 68.   I have no way of knowing if the op's coin is one of those 5 new high grade examples that have been added or not as he has not updated with his results.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:00 PM, Coinbuf said:

At the time the OP posted this thread there was only one MS67 in BN, now there are 5 in 67 and one in 68.   I have no way of knowing if the op's coin is one of those 5 new high grade examples that have been added or not as he has not updated with his results.

Wow....how did the population grow that much in 15 months ?

[Coinbuf]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:26 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow....how did the population grow that much in 15 months ?

Not 15 months only 3 months, which is a very short timeframe for such a big pop increase at the top to me.   The reason, I do not know but I have to suspect gradeflation is a part of it.

[Morpheus1967]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:00 PM, Coinbuf said:

At the time the OP posted this thread there was only one MS67 in BN, now there are 5 in 67 and one in 68.   I have no way of knowing if the op's coin is one of those 5 new high grade examples that have been added or not as he has not updated with his results.

It's not.  He hasn't even sent them in yet.  Now thinks it's a 66.

New Thread

[MarkFeld]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:33 PM, Coinbuf said:

Not 15 months only 3 months, which is a very short timeframe for such a big pop increase at the top to me.   The reason, I do not know but I have to suspect gradeflation is a part of it.

It could be multiple submissions of the same coin, with the submitter(s) not having turned in the old grading labels.

[Coinbuf]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:36 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

It's not.  He hasn't even sent them in yet.  Now thinks it's a 66.

New Thread

 Wow I had not seen that because he posted in the ask NGC section and I don't look thru that too often, classic.

 

On 12/14/2021 at 12:33 PM, MarkFeld said:

It could be multiple submissions of the same coin, with the submitter(s) not having turned in the old grading labels.

Could be a possibility if the same submitter used walkthru tier, although those 5 fees would take a big bite out of the new value (assuming that the one 67 made it to the now top pop 68).

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:33 PM, Coinbuf said:

Not 15 months only 3 months, which is a very short timeframe for such a big pop increase at the top to me.   The reason, I do not know but I have to suspect gradeflation is a part of it.

Wow, you're right....I thought this thread started in August 2020, it was only 3+ months ago.

I'm no expert on this coin, but for ANY TYPE....isn't it unheard of to have the high-end population experience such a huge boost in population so quickly ?   I mean, the population probably laid at 1 forever, right ?

You wonder if not gradeflation if a hoard may have been found and nobody announced it for fear of depressing the price ?   

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:33 PM, MarkFeld said:

It could be multiple submissions of the same coin, with the submitter(s) not having turned in the old grading labels.

For such a rare coin that would stick out, wouldn't you think you're not going to fool them or get lucky after submitting it just once (maybe twice) ?  I mean, after a while, they recognize the same coin and it's NOT going to get upgraded unless all the regular graders quit or are out sick and a bunch of newbies come in and overgrade it.

[Coinbuf]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:47 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For such a rare coin that would stick out, wouldn't you think you're not going to fool them or get lucky after submitting it just once (maybe twice) ?  I mean, after a while, they recognize the same coin and it's NOT going to get upgraded unless all the regular graders quit or are out sick and a bunch of newbies come in and overgrade it.

You would think so and for some coins that might be true if the retries are very close together.   But here is a real world scenario, I have a coin that was in PCGS MS66 which I felt was under graded and tried to upgrade twice myself over a year with no luck.   I then had a promenade dealer of the series agree to try it for me, first try went MS66+, second try it went to where it is now at MS67.   Those two second tries were within three months, however I will admit that the coin was not super remarkable or toned in such a way that it would stick in a graders mind.

My single experience is not unique and crackout dealers do this all the time if they feel the coin will make it and there is enough price appreciation between the two grades

[MarkFeld]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:47 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For such a rare coin that would stick out, wouldn't you think you're not going to fool them or get lucky after submitting it just once (maybe twice) ?  I mean, after a while, they recognize the same coin and it's NOT going to get upgraded unless all the regular graders quit or are out sick and a bunch of newbies come in and overgrade it.

It happens more than you’d (apparently) think.

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/14/2021 at 1:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow....how did the population grow that much in 15 months ?

Ditto top tier Roosters.  🐓 

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:19 PM, MarkFeld said:

It happens more than you’d (apparently) think.

I have had my share of disappointments but the very thought of resubmitting never occurred to me. I accept the portion dealt out to me and try to view the coin from the grader's perspective. I set aside the attributes and examine the deficits more closely. That's how I learned everything I know about my series. 🤔  [And I still feel my 30x loupe is not equal to the task. 😉] 

[MarkFeld]

On 12/14/2021 at 7:21 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I have had my share of disappointments but the very thought of resubmitting never occurred to me. I accept the portion dealt out to me and try to view the coin from the grader's perspective. I set aside the attributes and examine the deficits more closely. That's how I learned everything I know about my series. 🤔  [And I still feel my 30x loupe is not equal to the task. 😉] 

If you want to try to get a grader’s perspective, (temporarily) toss that 30x loupe.