Possible record 1886 Type1 Brown Indian Head Cent 2 2

[Ron Smith]

This coin is truly stunning and is head and shoulders better than any I have seen of this date and designation. No it isn't a proof coin although the strike would make you think so, Incredible color and luster. Near flawless. I have looked at the highest graded of this date and designation and this blows it away. I'm getting ready to send it in.  Any thoughts.

[Mohawk]

I have a thought but you're not going to like it.......the top grade for a brown 1886 Type 1 at NGC is a single MS 67 BN.  I don't think that the spots on the obverse of your coin will let it reach that grade.  That said, though, I'll gladly let someone more versed in this series chime in on whether I am correct in my assessment or not.

At any rate, welcome to the forum!!

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mohawk

[Ron Smith]

Those two small spots are it. Look at the 67 that was graded. It has nowhere near the luster strike or color of this one. Those two little dots. could not bring this coin down that much. Personally the graded 67 looks way over graded to me. It is in an old holder and graded many years ago. My opinion of course. I have been dealing with Indians for about 30 years.

 

[Mohawk]

On 8/27/2021 at 12:13 AM, Ron Smith said:

Those two small spots are it. Look at the 67 that was graded. It has nowhere near the luster strike or color of this one. Those two little dots. could not bring this coin down that much. Personally the graded 67 looks way over graded to me. It is in an old holder and graded many years ago. My opinion of course. I have been dealing with Indians for about 30 years.

 

Spots can absolutely kill the grade on copper coins.  I know this from experience working in a brick and mortar shop and submitting coins there as well as submitting other copper coins on my own.  You asked for thoughts and I shared mine, and that's honestly what I think.  I just wanted to share so that maybe I could help you avoid disappointment if you send this coin in to NGC.  I honestly have no interest in looking up the MS 67 as this is not an area of numismatics that interests me.  But I could be wrong, and I wish you luck with your coin.  I'm sure someone with more expertise and interest in Indians will chime in though.  I'd be happy to be wrong here.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mohawk

[Ron Smith]

Here is the 67. Lifeless nowhere near the strike luster or color. Which one would you want. This one even looks blotchy 

[Ron Smith]

I guess I might as well show my 98 proof and my 1902 while I'm at it. I think these should come back pretty good as well.

[Ron Smith]

A couple more hopefuls Not big on Large cents but this one caught my eye. I rarely find raw ones this nice. The 95 Indian is a great coin except the discoloration reverse on the N but I think the rest of the coin should carry it.   

[Ron Smith]

My 98 The obverse is near flawless hopefully it carries the reverse which has slight toning for a 65 Red The 92 Hoping for a 65RB as it is lightly toned

[Ron Smith]

Actually acquired bookend 1900's from a guy who had a roll of these. We will see how it goes

[Ron Smith]

A real nice brown 1885 Great luster some red poking through and not a spot on it. The 91 has a couple of spots but the strike luster and color not to mention a hard one for me to find in the raw for less than a hundred bucks I had to have it. 

[MarkFeld]

A few opinions...Based on the images of the 1886, my guess is 66. I wouldn’t bother to try to compare it to the already-graded MS67, which could look noticeably different and better in hand.

The color of the 1855 cent looks off to me. I hope I’m wrong, but it looks recolored/QT.

The 1898 cent looks RB, not RD.

 

Best of luck with the submission.

[RWB]

I agree on the 1855 cent. The "pure copper" used at that time (from Crocker Brothers, Corp.) has noticeable impurities, so it does not "age" the same as copper we see today. Every batch of planchets from Crocker Bros. was slightly different in composition. This can be very helpful in authentication - and a very simple way to show original 1840s half-cents from later novodels ("restrikes") from 1869.

[Ron Smith]

Hi. The luster on the 1855 is extremely high. The pics don't do it justice and there is some nice flashy red coming through on the reverse very original hard to see in the photos so the odds of it being recolored don't seem too high. A recolored coin would look more dull and I doubt they would recolor just one side. The patina on this one is really super.  

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 12:04 PM, Ron Smith said:

Hi. The luster on the 1855 is extremely high. The pics don't do it justice and there is some nice flashy red coming through on the reverse very original hard to see in the photos so the odds of it being recolored don't seem too high. A recolored coin would look more dull and I doubt they would recolor just one side. The patina on this one is really super.  

Obviously, I’m not viewing the coin in hand, but the color of both sides looks off in the pictures. And many recolored coins look plenty bright/lustrous. 

[Ron Smith]

A couple of different shots

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 12:23 PM, Ron Smith said:

A couple of different shots

That looks better, but I can’t unsee what I saw in the previous images and it still looks a bit off to me.😉

Perhaps the color is fine - I hope so. Best of luck.

[RWB]

You'll find out when it is carefully examined.

[Coinbuf]

Good luck with your submissions, I hope you will stop back and update us with your results.  I'm questioning a couple myself, however trying to judge surfaces and even color from photos can be tricky and even more so when in flips.

[Mohawk]

On 8/27/2021 at 12:32 AM, Ron Smith said:

Here is the 67. Lifeless nowhere near the strike luster or color. Which one would you want. This one even looks blotchy 

Which one would I want?  Me personally?  Neither one, to be perfectly honest.  If I had either one, I'd sell it and put the funds into my Roman coin collection.  However, and you're not going to like this again......I do think the MS 67 example does look nicer, insofar as I can evaluate it from the photos provided.  But that's just going on photos on a computer......in hand, it could be a completely different story.  But, that said again, best of luck with your submission.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mohawk

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:12 PM, Mohawk said:

Which one would I want?  Me personally?  Neither one, to be perfectly honest.  If I had either one, I'd sell it and put the funds into my Roman coin collection.  However, and you're not going to like this again......I do think the MS 67 example does look nicer, insofar as I can evaluate it from the photos provided.  But that's just going on photos on a computer......in hand, it could be a completely different story.  But, that said again, best of luck with your submission.  

What about the MS67 looks nicer to you? 

[Mohawk]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:16 PM, MarkFeld said:

What about the MS67 looks nicer to you? 

Well, first off, I don't see spots like on the OPs coin.  I really don't like those spots on the OPs coin. They're the first thing my eye is drawn to when I see the OPs coin.....and that's not a good thing. Secondly, and this is just from the photos posted, which as you know aren't ideal for proper evaluation, I like the color better on the MS 67.  And, to me personally, the MS 67 is just more appealing....I just like its look better.  As far as strike goes, both the OPs coin and the MS 67 look about equal, so that's not a factor in my feelings here.  But, like I said before, it could be a completely different situation were I to have the coins in hand.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mohawk

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:20 PM, Mohawk said:

Well, first off, I don't see spots like on the OPs coin.  I really don't like those spots on the OPs coin.  Secondly, and this is just from the photos posted, which as you know aren't ideal for proper evaluation, I like the color better on the MS 67.  And, to me personally, the MS 67 is just more appealing....I just like its look better.  As far as strike goes, both the OPs coin and the MS 67 look about equal, so that's not a factor in my feelings here.  But, like I said before, it could be a completely different situation were I to have the coins in hand.

Thank you. I feel as though I don’t really have much of an idea regarding what the 67 looks like.

[Ron Smith]

Here is a 66 Variety 2 next to mine. Sorry guys you can say all you want. There is no way to say the coin on the left could look better than mine on the right. Luster strike and color far superior to the the one on the left. You could take pictures of the one on the left all day or put it under a scope and not change that. You take away those couple of little dots you have a 68. This coin is struck like a proof. You can go through the achieves in Heritage auctions and there are no business strike 86 browns that look like this. There are a couple of proofs that look similar that are brown 66 but that is it. Color luster and strike beat out two very minor spots.  

[jtryka]

I have no expertise in copper, but would be fascinated to see what grades come back from whoever you submit to.

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:41 PM, Ron Smith said:

Here is a 66 Variety 2 next to mine. Sorry guys you can say all you want. There is no way to say the coin on the left could look better than mine on the right. Luster strike and color far superior to the the one on the left. You could take pictures of the one on the left all day or put it under a scope and not change that. You take away those couple of little dots you have a 68. This coin is struck like a proof. You can go through the achieves in Heritage auctions and there are no business strike 86 browns that look like this. There are a couple of proofs that look similar that are brown 66 but that is it. Color luster and strike beat out two very minor

None of us will be grading your coins, so you’re wasting your time trying to convince us of anything. That’s especially true when assessments must be made based upon images.

[Mohawk]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:04 PM, MarkFeld said:

None of us will be grading your coins, so you’re wasting your time trying to convince us of anything. That’s especially true when assessments must be made based upon images.

Yep.  We're definitely at a point where the OP needs to just submit the coins and prove us right or wrong. 

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:10 PM, Mohawk said:

Yep.  We're definitely at a point where the OP needs to just submit the coins and prove us right or wrong. 

I don’t even consider it a matter of right or wrong, when assessing cons from images. We’re limited by what we’re presented with.

[Mohawk]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:33 PM, MarkFeld said:

I don’t even consider it a matter of right or wrong, when assessing cons from images. We’re limited by what we’re presented with.

Very true and very good point.  Images can only give us so much information and they can be manipulated.  There is no substitute for having the coin in hand.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mohawk
Typo

[zadok]

natural color versus questionable color is not a chasm easily jumped across...

[Ron Smith]

I'm pretty much done here guys but I do have a few things to say. To those that say that the 67 1886 is superior to mine I guess my question to you is while the pictures I presented to you of my coins are so close they sit on your eyelids you choose to defend pictures of a coin that is so far away it's hard to make out much of anything. Let me ask you this. If those two microscopic brown dots that you say destroy my coin were on that coin in the 67 holder would you be able to tell from the distance that holder was away that you choose to defend. That was the exact picture used by Heritage Auctions. I did blow up the 67 and there are light and dark patches all over it. If you were to break it out I would bet it wouldn't get a 65. If the pictures you show of a coin are only taken from a distance there is good reason for it. They are trying to hide something. I guess I came on here for opinions which I was given. Now I will give mine. Coins in old holders on almost every occasion I have bought them and I have been dealing in Indians almost exclusively for over 30 years  have been over graded. Long before grade manipulation was ever thought of back in the mid 80's when this craziness started loose grading was no big deal. Once the number of highly graded coins from each year were established grading became much more strict in order to keep the prices high for those in shall we say the elite class. Obviously if you flood the market with a bunch of 66 or 67 graded coins it drops the price and the bigshots that spend all of the money with the supposedly  top notch coin grading companies get pissed off watching the value of their precious investments tumble. What better way to stop that then tighten the grading. Go on Heritage Auctions and look for yourself. A high majority of the top graded coins are in old holders. Are they better than the coins graded today. Nope. Not even close. Most likely worse. Its all about the money.  

Edited August 27, 2021 by Ron Smith
miss spelling