New to ancient coins and wanted to know real or fake? 0

[Jeremymundo]

[Jeremymundo]

Anyone know what they could be worth? 

[JKK]

Probably real. It would be fairly tough to duplicate that crudulation, which is common enough with ancients. I'm not going to start looking them up for attributions and cost comparison without weights and diameters, so let me know when you have posted those.

[Mohawk]

On 8/28/2021 at 7:25 PM, JKK said:

Probably real. It would be fairly tough to duplicate that crudulation, which is common enough with ancients. I'm not going to start looking them up for attributions and cost comparison without weights and diameters, so let me know when you have posted those.

I agree with everything Jonathan said.....especially when he said we need weights and diameters.  Those are vitally important when attributing ancients.  Get those posted up and we'll see what we can do.  

~Tom

Edited August 28, 2021 by Mohawk

[James Zyskowski]

Welcome   Try to remain patient and up load pictures and weight. There’s a lot of knowledgeable people here and sometimes a little humor. This can be a good experience 🤠

[Jeremymundo]

Thank you i really appreciate the advice i will as soon as i get home. 

[Jeremymundo]

[JKK]

Kindly convert those to mm, if you will.

In the meantime, I took a stab at the obvious Tarentine piece. Problem: that design is not found in Wildwinds under Calabria/Tarentum. If you go looking there, you'll see that people riding dolphins are the main motif, and that hardly any of them have such a clear legend. This is making me curious, though a part of me is thinking there must be another place in the Greek-speaking world with the same name, because 'Tarentinion' is quite clear and means 'of the Tarentines' as I understand it.

[Jeremymundo]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:14 PM, JKK said:

Kindly convert those to mm, if you will.

In the meantime, I took a stab at the obvious Tarentine piece. Problem: that design is not found in Wildwinds under Calabria/Tarentum. If you go looking there, you'll see that people riding dolphins are the main motif, and that hardly any of them have such a clear legend. This is making me curious, though a part of me is thinking there must be another place in the Greek-speaking world with the same name, because 'Tarentinion' is quite clear and means 'of the Tarentines' as I understand it.

 

[RWB]

Just an observation - the die work seems inconsistent with authentic pieces and portraits are exceptionally - excessively - clear for bronze/brass.

[JKK]

Okay. The zoomed in shots help a fair bit. Those are very large, and I think too large to be authentic. For one thing, it's really weird they are all in the same size range, and it's a very uncommon size for bronze in all those cases. The putative Gordian sestertius, given a closer look, does not display legend consistent in style with authentic pieces. I couldn't find the piece with the Tarentine legend at all, and I think the correct Greek would be Tarention. Don't know about the third piece at all, but by now I'm suspecting fakes in all three cases. What made me more credulous at first was the grubby residue, which I'd have thought would take some patience to fake effectively, but perhaps they're that good nowadays.

In any case, I wouldn't call it conclusive, but my diagnosis would be doubtful authenticity. I've got portraits that clear, but the rest of it is just too fishy.

[JKK]

Thank you, by the way, for your prompt cooperation in providing the requested measurements. Since you're new to ancients, here is why they are important. In the case of Roman imperial bronzes, especially third century and later, we have to know the size of the coin to know its denomination category, which is where we find the list of known bust/legend/type/exergue combinations. So, knowing the coin was an AE1 in size (for example), that means I'm not digging through the AE2s, the AE3s, etc. If I'm going through Sear, there may be a series of coins all with similar descriptions, differing only in size. Weights are also important to examine consistency with known authentic examples.

Your best online resource for ancient Greek and Roman coinage is Wildwinds. A browse through there will help you to see why those metrics would be important. Since most of the coins shown there have measurements, if you're trying to attribute a coin and you find one that looks much like it, you'd look to see if weight and diameter were consistent.

As for print references, the most bang for the buck is Rasiel Suarez's Aorta, at least when used copies are not prohibitively spendy. It covers Roman imperial up to 476 in the West, and up to a point around 400 in the East, after which I guess Ras decided the classification of Byzantine was outside the scope. If you lift weights, it's not unreasonable to think of getting ERIC II, which is the size of the old Seattle yellow pages in their heyday. It's larger, easier to read, the pics are color, and it covers Byz stuff as well. Pretty nice considering it can be cheaper than Aorta. For Greek, there's no cheap easy way; the two volumes of Sear's Greek Coins will both run you neighborhood of the price of a nice denarius (maybe $50-70).

My advice, if you like European ancients (the rest of the world does have its own ancients, of course), is to stick with Wildwinds and spend your money on coins rather than books at first. You will know when the lack of books has become a serious hindrance, and can then decide on references that better support your specific interests. For example, if you like Afghan jitals, you simply have to have Tye's Jitals. If you don't give a rip about jitals, you can do without the book (or make do with the freebie type catalog). Nearly every numismatic category has these decisions to make.

If you're thinking of buying a coin in person, and you wonder whether it's authentic, how you ask the dealer that question is critical. It's not like here, where people commonly post their own created phonies (not saying you did so) and want us to be dunces and help improve their fakery. If you ask the question rudely, the dealer will be put off. They would not sell known fakes, ergo, they believe all their coins authentic, ergo, "How do I know it's real?" insults either the dealer's knowledge or integrity. Not your best look for learning, right? So my way of phrasing it is always: "So, please help me to understand. What about this coin confirmed for you that it was authentic?" If they get crabby about that, they're probably just the Grumpy McGrumperton dealer type, and you should buy from someone else.

[Hoghead515]

Very interesting thread. @JKK i really enjoy reading your responses in these threads about ancients. It helps answer some of the questions ive had rattling around in my mind. Not only do you help the OP's who ask about them but, you also help people like me as well. Thank you sir. 

[JKK]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:34 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Very interesting thread. @JKK i really enjoy reading your responses in these threads about ancients. It helps answer some of the questions ive had rattling around in my mind. Not only do you help the OP's who ask about them but, you also help people like me as well. Thank you sir. 

Glad to help. It's only right, since people who still know tons more than me have helped me get this far.

[Jeremymundo]

Thank you i really appreciate your time in helping these coins really had me stumped. The lady i got them from for doing work for her didnt know much about them beside that her dad found them with his metal detector and he passed away so i couldnt ask him any questions. 

Only thing im kinda confused on is they look to be silver under the crudy residue. I can take some better picture if it would at all help . 

Again i wanna thank all of you for your time.  

And another question what do i do to comfirm they are fakes. 

 

[JKK]

On 8/29/2021 at 3:28 PM, Jeremymundo said:

Thank you i really appreciate your time in helping these coins really had me stumped. The lady i got them from for doing work for her didnt know much about them beside that her dad found them with his metal detector and he passed away so i couldnt ask him any questions. 

Only thing im kinda confused on is they look to be silver under the crudy residue. I can take some better picture if it would at all help . 

Again i wanna thank all of you for your time.  

And another question what do i do to comfirm they are fakes. 

 

They might or might not be silver, but they look like bronze to me. Definitely do not clean them, in case you were wondering. If they happen to be real, the crudulation is actually beneficial in that it makes the details pop more. I have a number of Greek coins in that situation and you couldn't get me to clean them at bayonet point.

To authenticate them, you'll need a more experienced numismatic resource than me (not terribly hard to find). One way would be to send them in for grading, understanding that this will be an expensive method. You could also go to a coin show, find an antiquarian, and ask him or her to give you an opinion. It would be the proper behavior in such a case to buy at least one coin from that dealer, or better yet, enough to equal what it would probably cost to send them in (my guess is about $150 for the three).

[Jeremymundo]

Its hard to tell from the picture but looks to be silver i could be wrong. I think i will send them in for grading just to make sure they arent authentic even tho you probably are right .  Thank you for answer all my questions. 

[JKK]

Good luck. It's possible you could be pleasantly surprised. I hope that you are. If you are, please post the slabs so I can learn a little.

[Jeremymundo]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:26 PM, JKK said:

Good luck. It's possible you could be pleasantly surprised. I hope that you are. If you are, please post the slabs so I can learn a little.

Thank you and i most definitely will.  

[Oldhoopster]

I dabble in ancients but am no means an expert.  However, I'm concerned about the uniform size of the planchets as well as the each coin being nicely centered.  That is very unusual and gives me a reason to be concerned.   Also, if I recall correctly, the Naxos coin may be worth 6 figures and has been extensively copied.

I would wait for more input before sending them in, and  would be surprised if they were authentic.  Just my opinion

[Jeremymundo]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:41 AM, Oldhoopster said:

I dabble in ancients but am no means an expert.  However, I'm concerned about the uniform size of the planchets as well as the each coin being nicely centered.  That is very unusual and gives me a reason to be concerned.   Also, if I recall correctly, the Naxos coin may be worth 6 figures and has been extensively copied.

I would wait for more input before sending them in, and  would be surprised if they were authentic.  Just my opinion

It's really hard to say especially with the only info I have on the coins is from a sweet old lady I got them from , my mom's older friend had them and I used to do handy man stuff around the house for her for years and I never once charged her any money and one day she came and got me after I was finishing  up building some ramps for her house to make it more wheel chair friendly and she said I got something I wanna show you .

she then told me how her dad loved rock hounding and metal detecting and that she had some of his treasures that he was really proud of digging up and said he would always bring them out and show his friends and then she said I've been waiting for the right person to give them to there was also a really cool ring that I still have I'll post a picture I know nearly nothing about it but it is really neat . So at least I do know that she thought they were something really special and I just cherish that she chose to leave them with me regardless if they are real or fake. She did say tho that her dad said they  were silver coins. 

[Jeremymundo]

Heres the ring

[Just Bob]

That ring looks familiar. Did you post it  in another thread here, or on another forum?