Any advice for becoming a dealer at coin shows? 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/24/2021 at 6:50 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Paramount, which has since changed its name but still on West 57th Street, was robbed twice. A single salesperson however vigilant, is insufficient

There's another coin shop besides Stacks (which I believe is moving downtown to save $$$) on W. 57th Street ?  Successor to Paramount, which was big in the 1960's and 1970's ?

Paul Wittlin and David Akers workred there for many years.  Wow.....

[Crawtomatic]

On 8/22/2021 at 9:53 AM, RWB said:

So, give it a try.

BTW - once you get behind the table you become an "instant expert" to potential customers.

This "instant expert" perception is most likely true.  That would explain the dealers I've encountered that put me off once I hear them talking authoritatively about a topic or item even if incorrect.  Certainly not limited to numismatics but with so many different avenues of collecting, classifying, and researching nobody is expected to be an expert on each.  I'd be far more impressed, and likely to do continued business, with a dealer who said something was outside of his expertise but either suggested or introduced me to somebody else at the show who knew more on the subject.

[RWB]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:54 AM, Crawtomatic said:

I'd be far more impressed, and likely to do continued business, with a dealer who said something was outside of his expertise but either suggested or introduced me to somebody else at the show who knew more on the subject.

Ah....greed Trumps honesty.

"Instant expert" happens on both sides of the table. The dealer assumes he/she is knowledgeable because they are on the sell-side of the table. The customer assumes that anyone selling coins (not "cons") at a show MUST know about the coins being sold - otherwise they would not be selling coins.

[JKK]

Speaking as someone whose annual job is to help dealers get set up for a coin show, and who is an exhibitor at a non-coin show:

Fill out your registration properly so the show can get your name badges correct and have them waiting.

If you don't like the lights the show provides (and you often should not), bring your own. Lighting can be crucial.

Order a couple of chairs for the front of your booth. Some of your buyers are greatly ancient, or disabled, or really fat, and appreciate a place to rest. If you have an area for people to go through coins, such as a foreign junk can, have a chair there. You might think that this leads to abuses, as in people sitting there just to waste your time. If that happens, you can ask them to move on, but it is more likely to get you more engagement. If of course you're as autistic as half of our *spoon* dealers, then definitely avoid the chairs so that you can treat the customers with disconnected scorn.

Don't overgrade. Overpricing is one thing; overgrading is another. I think a couple of our dealers grade for the Make-a-Wish Foundation.

Don't bug out early on the last day. Your show presenters will hate you. If you think *spoon* them, not my problem, I have news for you. Even just as a customer, I have great contempt for the early quitters.

[Henri Charriere]

@JKK  As someone who has never been to a coin show or convention in my entire life, allow me to weigh in here...

Is it possible there may be a valid reason for an early departure? 🤔

Rush hour traffic, compromised nite vision, unfamiliarity with access routes, a wife (or husband's) ultimatum, a noticeable dearth of prospective customers or foot traffic at one's table, general fatigue exacerbated by the prospect of an inordinately long trip home, security concerns?

Maybe what's needed is a simple, non-intrusive exit poll.  Looking at things from my perspective, come January in New York City, I have one mission: in the absence of the handful of coins the Set Registry gods have determined I require, I will quickly gather information and develop leads. Who knows, it is within the realm of possibility a teenager may be roaming the aisles totally unaware he has a Rooster, certified and encapsulated, with a grade of MS-68 (unique in the annals of TPGS) his grandfather gave him -- and I will happen to be the very first person he runs into. I will get "Just Bob," the undisputed King of "Fair Market Value" on the wire, negotiate a price, thank the young fellow profusely, and head for the nearest exit door. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

[MarkFeld]

On 8/26/2021 at 3:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@JKK  As someone who has never been to a coin show or convention in my entire life, allow me to weigh in here...

Is it possible there may be a valid reason for an early departure? 🤔

Rush hour traffic, compromised nite vision, unfamiliarity with access routes, a wife (or husband's) ultimatum, a noticeable dearth of prospective customers or foot traffic at one's table, general fatigue exacerbated by the prospect of an inordinately long trip home, security concerns?

Maybe what's needed is a simple, non-intrusive exit poll.  Looking at things from my perspective, come January in New York City, I have one mission: in the absence of the handful of coins the Set Registry gods have determined I require, I will quickly gather information and develop leads. Who knows, it is within the realm of possibility a teenager may be roaming the aisles totally unaware he has a Rooster, certified and encapsulated, with a grade of MS-68 (unique in the annals of TPGS) his grandfather gave him -- and I will happen to be the very first person he runs into. I will get "Just Bob," the undisputed King of "Fair Market Value" on the wire, negotiate a price, thank the young fellow profusely, and head for the nearest exit door. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Table holders leave early for various reasons. In many cases, it’s a business/financial decision, as they believe they can get more done back at the office, so time is better spent there. In other instances, it’s a quality of life decision - perhaps they prefer to spend more time with family and/or friends and/or doing something else, rather than stay at the show.

I can understand why attendees don’t like it when dealers leave early. But as long as the contract with the show organizer/promoter doesn’t require staying until a particular time, I feel that the table holder should be free to leave when he wants to. He’s the one who pays the fee for the table and is there to do business. If he thinks it’s worthwhile to stay, he will and if not, he won’t. 

 

 

[RWB]

The central question (related to above) is:"What is the purpose of the coin show/bourse?"

[MarkFeld]

On 8/26/2021 at 5:27 PM, RWB said:

The central question (related to above) is:"What is the purpose of the coin show/bourse?"

The answer depends upon from whose point of view you’re asking.

[RWB]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:34 PM, MarkFeld said:

The answer depends upon from whose point of view you’re asking.

No. A "show" is defined by its organizers and promoters, others merely assume it aligns with their own point of view.

[MarkFeld]

On 8/26/2021 at 5:59 PM, RWB said:

No. A "show" is defined by its organizers and promoters, others merely assume it aligns with their own point of view.

You asked “What is the purpose of the coinshow/bourse?" The organizers and promoters have a a purpose for putting it on and different attendees have different purposes for attending. What’s your point?

[Henri Charriere]

If I attend, it will be for one purpose only: Any French Roosters?... Any French Roosters?... Any French Roosters?... (you get the idea.)

If I get a hit, or promising lead, it will have made the entire trip abundantly worthwhile.  Having committed the holdings of a handful of major Rooster contenders to memory, I will gladly obtain the business cards of dealers to pass along to collectors who may very well appreciate the gesture to move up a notch or two in either of the two top Set Registries.

[zadok]

On 8/26/2021 at 4:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@JKK  As someone who has never been to a coin show or convention in my entire life, allow me to weigh in here...

Is it possible there may be a valid reason for an early departure? 🤔

Rush hour traffic, compromised nite vision, unfamiliarity with access routes, a wife (or husband's) ultimatum, a noticeable dearth of prospective customers or foot traffic at one's table, general fatigue exacerbated by the prospect of an inordinately long trip home, security concerns?

Maybe what's needed is a simple, non-intrusive exit poll.  Looking at things from my perspective, come January in New York City, I have one mission: in the absence of the handful of coins the Set Registry gods have determined I require, I will quickly gather information and develop leads. Who knows, it is within the realm of possibility a teenager may be roaming the aisles totally unaware he has a Rooster, certified and encapsulated, with a grade of MS-68 (unique in the annals of TPGS) his grandfather gave him -- and I will happen to be the very first person he runs into. I will get "Just Bob," the undisputed King of "Fair Market Value" on the wire, negotiate a price, thank the young fellow profusely, and head for the nearest exit door. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

contracting to become a coin "dealer" n to set up at a coin show is just that a contract with both the show promoter n the attending public...the show advertises set hours n the general public makes their plans to attend based on that premise...its not supposed to be "about" the dealer its supposed to be "about" the paying public...the dealer assumes the inconveniences for the conveniences of the attendees...virtually all of the above excuses should be taken into consideration before deciding to be the contracted "dealer" n if he/she cant meet their obligations dont become a "dealer"...in n increasing number today many of the "dealers" only do the shows to be able to buy before the general public enters the show n to make their wholesale transactions with other dealers without any consideration for the paying customers that follow...in other words its all bout the money n the average collector is n after thought...those "dealers" dont deserve the title or any of the respect that goes with being a true conscientious dealer that stays the course n honors his/her commitments n their customers.....

[MarkFeld]

On 8/26/2021 at 7:56 PM, zadok said:

contracting to become a coin "dealer" n to set up at a coin show is just that a contract with both the show promoter n the attending public...the show advertises set hours n the general public makes their plans to attend based on that premise...its not supposed to be "about" the dealer its supposed to be "about" the paying public...the dealer assumes the inconveniences for the conveniences of the attendees...virtually all of the above excuses should be taken into consideration before deciding to be the contracted "dealer" n if he/she cant meet their obligations dont become a "dealer"...in n increasing number today many of the "dealers" only do the shows to be able to buy before the general public enters the show n to make their wholesale transactions with other dealers without any consideration for the paying customers that follow...in other words its all bout the money n the average collector is n after thought...those "dealers" dont deserve the title or any of the respect that goes with being a true conscientious dealer that stays the course n honors his/her commitments n their customers.....

Sorry, but I don’t agree that a dealer who buys a table at a show necessarily has a “contract” with the public. That is, unless there’s a provision in the show contact about staying until a certain time. Likewise, the public doesn’t have a contract with the dealer, either. They need not attend the show, go to amy particular dealer’s table or do business with them.

This type of debate has been going on for many years, and at this point, most show attendees are aware that not all dealers stay for the entire show.

And yes, as part of their business, some dealers go to shows and try to make money - that doesn’t make them greedy or bad people.

You mentioned the “paying customers”, but what about the far greater expenses that the dealers incur? Depending upon the show, it can be thousands of dollars, considering table fees, plane, hotel, etc.

I realize that I might sound as if I don’t care about collectors, but that’s not at all the case. I’ve been an advocate for collectors for over 40 years. But I have much bigger issues with the anti-hobby, anti-collector behavior of some dealers than the fact that they might leave shows early.

Edited August 27, 2021 by MarkFeld

[GoldFinger1969]

My astronomy club puts on a world-class expo and vendor show each year.  The tendency has been for some dealers -- esp. those who have long drives back home or trips to the airport -- to start packing up on the 2nd day of the show which is Sunday.

We didn't like it because the Sunday-only ticket buyers (but also the 2-day buyers) didn't like the aesthetics of folks packing up by 1 PM on a day when the show hours are 10 - 5 PM.   It's not a good look.  It's disrespectful to the 1-day ticket buyers.  

So...we asked them to stop and push it back closer to 3 PM.  The dealers realized it was in everybody's interest to keep the show's integrity intact.

Edited August 27, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:27 PM, RWB said:

The central question (related to above) is:"What is the purpose of the coin show/bourse?"

Provide a safe and secure venue for window shopping -- and an opportunity for @VKurtB to demonstrate his photographic skills. 😉

[MarkFeld]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

My astronomy club puts on a world-class expo and vendor show each year.  The tendency has been for some dealers -- esp. those who have long drives back home or trips to the airport -- to start packing up on the 2nd day of the show which is Sunday.

We didn't like it because the Sunday-only ticket buyers (but also the 2-day buyers) didn't like the aesthetics of folks packing up by 1 PM on a day when the show hours are 10 - 5 PM.   It's not a good luck.  It's disrespectful to the 1-day ticket buyers.  

So...we asked them to stop and push it back closer to 3 PM.  The dealers realized it was in everybody's interest to keep the show's integrity intact.

Some shows have come up with (what I think are pretty good) ways of dealing with potential empty tables when dealers leave, prior to the end of the show. As one example, some sell one-day tables at discounted rates.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/26/2021 at 9:46 PM, MarkFeld said:

Some shows have come up with (what I think are pretty good) ways of dealing with potential empty tables when dealers leave, prior to the end of the show. As one example, some sell one-day tables at discounted rates.

Or put them all near one another which is usually not the optimal traffic-wise location.  You want a premium location with the attendees ?  Then you stay to the end or near the end.

We're not giving prime locations, premium tables, to folks packing up late-morning on Sunday. 

[RWB]

A simple approach is for the sponsor to require dealer active presence during specified dates and times. Violation means forfeiture of a security deposit, or public display of those who left w/o approval, or no future invitation. Once several promoters enforce similar conditions, dealers will stay and at minimum occupy the space.

Using fill-in is another useful way to use vacated space; however, if the original dealer has a contract and made payment for 3 days, and leaves after 2 days, reselling the same space will require an additional contract provision including how to determine that a table renter has actually forfeited some of their time.

Personally, I disagree with Mark's dealer-is-dominant approach. IF - IF - a bourse is intended for collectors, then the rules must benefit collector attendance, regardless of any dealer inconvenience. A clear contract, with clear statements of purpose and appropriate enforcement should solve the problem. ON THE OTHER HAND - if a bourse is intended for dealers' benefit, then the logic changes, and no one should complain if one, some, or all of the dealers vanish in the dark of night. (See 1984 treatise of Robert Irsay on skipping town under cover of darkness.)

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:43 AM, RWB said:

A simple approach is for the sponsor to require dealer active presence during specified dates and times. Violation means forfeiture of a security deposit, or public display of those who left w/o approval, or no future invitation. Once several promoters enforce similar conditions, dealers will stay and at minimum occupy the space.

Using fill-in is another useful way to use vacated space; however, if the original dealer has a contract and made payment for 3 days, and leaves after 2 days, reselling the same space will require an additional contract provision including how to determine that a table renter has actually forfeited some of their time.

Personally, I disagree with Mark's dealer-is-dominant approach. IF - IF - a bourse is intended for collectors, then the rules must benefit collector attendance, regardless of any dealer inconvenience. A clear contract, with clear statements of purpose and appropriate enforcement should solve the problem. ON THE OTHER HAND - if a bourse is intended for dealers' benefit, then the logic changes, and no one should complain if one, some, or all of the dealers vanish in the dark of night. (See 1984 treatise of Robert Irsay on skipping town under cover of darkness.)

I have no issue with the suggestions in your first two paragraphs and my approach has nothing to do with “dealer is dominant”.
My approach pertains to what dealers sign up for when they purchase tables. And their right to conduct their business as they choose, as long as they adhere to their agreements, including any applicable code of conduct.

A bourse should be intended for the benefit of both collectors and dealers, as they’re each somewhat dependent upon the other.

Edited August 27, 2021 by MarkFeld

[zadok]

On 8/26/2021 at 9:29 PM, MarkFeld said:

Sorry, but I don’t agree that a dealer who buys a table at a show necessarily has a “contract” with the public. That is, unless there’s a provision in the show contact about staying until a certain time. Likewise, the public doesn’t have a contract with the dealer, either. They need not attend the show, go to amy particular dealer’s table or do business with them.

This type of debate has been going on for many years, and at this point, most show attendees are aware that not all dealers stay for the entire show.

And yes, as part of their business, some dealers go to shows and try to make money - that doesn’t make them greedy or bad people.

You mentioned the “paying customers”, but what about the far greater expenses that the dealers incur? Depending upon the show, it can be thousands of dollars, considering table fees, plane, hotel, etc.

I realize that I might sound as if I don’t care about collectors, but that’s not at all the case. I’ve been an advocate for collectors for over 40 years. But I have much bigger issues with the anti-hobby, anti-collector behavior of some dealers than the fact that they might leave shows early.

ur disagreement is expected...after all just below ur name on this forum is ur chosen identifier...."dealer"...n to each is his/her own...as for the over head at the shows thats part of the cost of doing business as in any business n is know well in advance...many dealers choose to call themselves "professional numismatists" even though the hobby has no official certification or accreditation authority, my premise would be if they want the respect associated with that designation then it must be earned n departing shows early for self interests doesnt demonstrate a professional attitude...just my opinion...

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:44 PM, zadok said:ur disagreement is expected...after all just below ur name on this forum is ur chosen identifier...."dealer"...n to each is his/her own...as for the over head at the shows thats part of the cost of doing business as in any business n is know well in advance...many dealers choose to call themselves "professional numismatists" even though the hobby has no official certification or accreditation authority, my premise would be if they want the respect associated with that designation then it must be earned n departing shows early for self interests doesnt demonstrate a professional attitude...just my opinion...

My disagreement wouldn't be any different if I were a collector. I’ve been a collector, off and on for decades, worked with collectors for 40 years and can easily see things through the eyes of a collector.

Clearly, many dealers aren’t professional and don’t deserve respect. But I wouldn’t respect a dealer less for departing a show early (again) as long as he hadn’t agreed to remain the entire time. There are plenty of respectable dealers who leave shows early, just as there are others who stay the entire time, who might be less worthy of respect. 
 

[zadok]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:54 PM, MarkFeld said:

My disagreement wouldn't be any different if I were a collector. I’ve been a collector, off and on for decades, worked with collectors for 40 years and can easily see things through the eyes of a collector.

Clearly, many dealers aren’t professional and don’t deserve respect. But I wouldn’t respect a dealer less for departing a show early (again) as long as he hadn’t agreed to remain the entire time. There are plenty of respectable dealers who leave shows early, just as there are others who stay the entire time, who might be less worthy of respect. 
 

everyone has their own priorities, standards, biases n boundaries as it should be....ours r just different.....i personally dont patronize nor buy from dealers that r repetitive early departers regardless of their inventories....

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:03 PM, zadok said:

everyone has their own priorities, standards, biases n boundaries as it should be....ours r just different.....i personally dont patronize nor buy from dealers that r repetitive early departers regardless of their inventories....

Fair enough. When I had my own business, I declined to do business with certain dealers, based on their business practices. So maybe our views aren’t that different.

[Henri Charriere]

It's beginning look like I am either an imbecile or insufficiently_thoughtful_person, whichever is worse.

I was totally unaware tables were "purchased" or "bought" and am unable to gauge the relative ratings regulating "business practices" beyond the Better Business Bureau.

If I "rent" a table in advance, and either do not show up or leave early, who here is the victim?  Who is the inevitable loser? If Quintus Arrius fails to show, who cares? If a well-recognized dealer with an impeccable reputation is MIA, that may be cause for action or alarm. A good p.r. person or spokesman authorized to speak for attribution will steadfastly claim his client's absence is due to a scheduling conflict, sickness, or my personal favorite: a prior commitment. My only question is: Is this enough of a problem to make an issue of?

[MarkFeld]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It's beginning look like I am either an imbecile or insufficiently_thoughtful_person, whichever is worse.

I was totally unaware tables were "purchased" or "bought" and am unable to gauge the relative ratings regulating "business practices" beyond the Better Business Bureau.

If I "rent" a table in advance, and either do not show up or leave early, who here is the victim?  Who is the inevitable loser? If Quintus Arrius fails to show, who cares? If a well-recognized dealer with an impeccable reputation is MIA, that may be cause for action or alarm. A good p.r. person or spokesman authorized to speak for attribution will steadfastly claim his client's absence is due to a scheduling conflict, sickness, or my personal favorite: a prior commitment. My only question is: Is this enough of a problem to make an issue of?

Depending upon the show, the cost for a table/tables can be hundreds or even many thousands of dollars. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by MarkFeld

[zadok]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It's beginning look like I am either an imbecile or insufficiently_thoughtful_person, whichever is worse.

I was totally unaware tables were "purchased" or "bought" and am unable to gauge the relative ratings regulating "business practices" beyond the Better Business Bureau.

If I "rent" a table in advance, and either do not show up or leave early, who here is the victim?  Who is the inevitable loser? If Quintus Arrius fails to show, who cares? If a well-recognized dealer with an impeccable reputation is MIA, that may be cause for action or alarm. A good p.r. person or spokesman authorized to speak for attribution will steadfastly claim his client's absence is due to a scheduling conflict, sickness, or my personal favorite: a prior commitment. My only question is: Is this enough of a problem to make an issue of?

since u havent, dont n prob wont attend a true coin show it would be diff to give u insight into the complexities, expectations n responsibilties of either attending or doing a coin show...lets just say a true coin show isnt anything like a flea market...if it was ur first coin show no one would care, if it were ur umteenth n u had established customers some mite care, if u were one of fifty dealers that decided to just skip the show yes it would be n issue...but in ur case u most likely wouldnt miss much, since i see very few if any roosters at the coin shows i attend...at the recent ana show i saw just one on the floor....

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:27 PM, MarkFeld said:

Depending upon the show, the cost for a table/tables can be hundreds or even many thousands of dollars. 

Well, that certainly differs from the scores of flea markets and street affairs I had attended since the 1960's. The flea markets and fairs were free. One occupied half a city block in midtown Manhattan. The cost of admission was one (1) dollar. A very large, presumably very expensive condominium now occupies every square inch of its formerly unpaved lot. Google's cam car cannot seem to keep up with all the daily changes.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:53 PM, zadok said:

since u havent, dont n prob wont attend a true coin show it would be diff to give u insight into the complexities, expectations n responsibilties of either attending or doing a coin show...lets just say a true coin show isnt anything like a flea market...if it was ur first coin show no one would care, if it were ur umteenth n u had established customers some mite care, if u were one of fifty dealers that decided to just skip the show yes it would be n issue...but in ur case u most likely wouldnt miss much, since i see very few if any roosters at the coin shows i attend...at the recent ana show i saw just one on the floor....

I am afraid I knew none of this.  There is an international coin show in Manhattan, with quite reasonable admission prices the vast majority of our members will not attend, but I will be there, likely with my wife as she does not permit me to go anywhere by myself (citing our contract and agreement, a reference to our marriage license).  If I am unable to find a Rooster I need there are sure to be knowledgeable dealers who will be happy to provide business cards and point me helpfully in a productive direction. Hopefully, I will be able to fit in the suit and shoes I wore only once to tie the knot at "City Hall," long ago moved to a vacated office of the state Department of Motor Vehicles nearby.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:27 PM, MarkFeld said:

Depending upon the show, the cost for a table/tables can be hundreds or even many thousands of dollars. 

If I buy or purchase a table, may I assume it is mine to fold up and take away with me when all is said and done and the bell retrieved from some famous shipwreck is rung at the end of all festivities?

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

On 8/21/2021 at 12:35 PM, RWB said:

With a lot of surplus coins, you could try a local show. Organize what you have, determine what to display, and price aggressively to draw customers and interest. Don't rent more table space than you (or with a helper) can supervise and sell from. Track all sales and item requests that you could not fulfill. Make your table space attractive and interesting - not merely a copy-cat flat space among all the other copy-cat flat spaces. If there's a curtain behind your backup table, use that space to attract attention. You might love to "talk coins" but you are there to sell (and possibly buy) - most of the coin talk will be limited to individual items. 20 seconds is the maximum time you will have to engage a potential customer. Recognize that a large proportion of those visiting your table will be poorly informed or ignorant of coin terminology....it's what they are and you can't change that in 20 seconds.

When the show is over, make a cold business examination of what sold-what sat, revenue vs time and expense. Unfilled requests will help you understand the potential buyers at this show and to make estimates for future shows.

PS: Know your inventory.

PPS: Be careful in what information you share with other dealers. Before, during and after.