THE MARCH OF THE GOLDEN ROOSTERS 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

I, Quintus Arrius, have been seriously thinking about transferring my entire #1 ranked collection of 🐓 to NGC, a move that will necessarily entail time, money 💰 and the expense and risk associated with mandatory cross-grading.

I have given this idea a considerable amount of thought and would like the membership here, unless expressly unlawful and illegal and against the NGC rules, regulations and guidelines, to freely share their thoughts both pro (and con, if they can summon up the courage to do so).

Accordingly, speak up, or forever hold your pieces.

[Fenntucky Mike]

I see no benefit in crossing the coins due to an affinity of NGC, if you want them to reside here they could do so most comfortably in a Custom Registry set. If you were confident in your grading skills and anticipated a straight cross with some increases MAYBE, but even then I doubt it would be worth the expense. If purely for your own enjoyment and contentment, realizing you probably would not recoup 🐓 your investment and possibly devalue the set, that's entirely up to you. But I get it. 

[Revenant]

On 7/23/2021 at 5:28 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I see no benefit in crossing the coins due to an affinity of NGC, if you want them to reside here they could do so most comfortably in a Custom Registry set. 

He keeps referring to it as his #1 set - except it looks like in the NGC registry he's only 50% complete and not in the Top 3. I get the impression that seeing that #1, if he can get it, means a lot to him.

I think if he does it, it all crosses and he gets his #1 he'll feel like it was worth every penny when that award icon shows up in January.

If his grades come up short and he is a few points shy of winning after downgrades I suspect he'll be playing a sad song.

I mean, for what it's worth, I spent about $140 in grading fees + shipping both ways just to get my 10Gs reholdered to make them look pretty together, so I kinda get it, but I think for him it's more of a gamble since I wasn't crossing.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Revenant

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Every PCGS coin I've ever bought I crossed over to NGC, every one of them crossed successfully, and a couple upgraded to a +.

I wanted them all to fit together tightly and having the same holders made that possible.  There's no slop to them, the way they stack in two columns of seven each… side by side.  Then, too, I like the presentation appearance of NGC's holders.  They look classy to me; scratch resistant gloss, bold black print descriptions, and a white background around gold, especially if you have a few CAC beans, really dresses them up.

PCGS just doesn't do it for me.

[Morpheus1967]

On 7/23/2021 at 9:43 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Every PCGS coin I've ever bought I crossed over to NGC, every one of them crossed successfully, and a couple upgraded to a +.

And yet I have tried to cross over, and only 1 of 4 would cross at the same or higher grade, so YMMV.

QA, can you provide a link to your registry set?  Or anyone?  Not sure where to look for it.  All I know is it's French, gold, and something about chickens.  

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 7/23/2021 at 10:14 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

QA, can you provide a link to your registry set?  Or anyone?  Not sure where to look for it.  All I know is it's French, gold, and something about chickens.  

LOL, this has to be it. Europe, French 20 Francs Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1899-1914) All Time Set: Rooster Roster (pcgs.com)

Very nice QA. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Fenntucky Mike

[Morpheus1967]

On 7/23/2021 at 10:43 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

LOL, this has to be it. Europe, French 20 Francs Gold Rooster, Circulation Strikes (1899-1914) All Time Set: Rooster Roster (pcgs.com)

Very nice QA. 

Thanks Mike.

Wow.  Absolutely stunning set QA.  I would definitely leave the collection in the slabs they are in.  

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 7/23/2021 at 10:14 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

And yet I have tried to cross over, and only 1 of 4 would cross at the same or higher grade, so YMMV.

QA, can you provide a link to your registry set?  Or anyone?  Not sure where to look for it.  All I know is it's French, gold, and something about chickens.  

I just checked my records.  I've only attempted two cross overs, one of which got a + upgrade, and then they both went on to successfully CAC.

So not much mileage to speak of.

[Henri Charriere]

The 🐓 "quandary," if it even exists, is one of my own making.  @Revenant I automatically assume every member is aware I started my collection here at NGC after a gentleman from New Hampshire inherited a small collection of coins and, sharing my dislike of PayPal, offered to sell his coin to me for wampum, among other things. I took him up on his offer and it was the very first time I held an NGC encapsulated coin in my hand.  At some point, it became clear to me that the "original" series was primarily available only thru PCGS, slabbed (raw was too risky in definitively finite MS grades) and only thru Europe.

Moving along, Custom Registry or hybrid compilations are against my religion and to those concerned about recouping one's investment, a question: How come nobody asks the climbers of Everest, many of whom knowingly risk their lives, how they intend to recoup theirs? Sherpas, or guides cost upwards of $75,000 (and that's exclusive of airfare, equipment, food and lodging?)  Anyone entering this hobby now should know going in that unless they are in it for the long haul, they are not going to strike it rich (otherwise numismatism would be inundated with collectors and investors and that is simply not the case, given enough distance.

I am sure all of you have viewed my #1 ranked Rooster Roster at PCGS with a link thoughtfully provided by @Fenntucky Mike.  The sad truth is though I have been awarded a plaque for "Best French Set," it is merely tentatively and provisionally the best now, but not the best possible. I had no real competition until the gentleman here at NGC I refer to as Mr. Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, for his patience, strategy, stamina and endurance debuted without fanfare at the #3 spot. Little-known incontestable fact: He presently is in possession of the highest graded 🐓 certified by any major TPGS 1912 MS-67+ There is no doubt in my mind that with the right network and cooperation he will unseat the #1 ranked member whose collection has lain dormant racking up awards for the past ten years without lifting a finger. @USAuPzlBxBob has come closest to expressing my feelings.

I think I will take the advice given me under advisement, maintain my standing at both NGC & PCGS and divest myself of the rest.  At age 70, my options are limited.  My thanks to all who've taken the time to respond.  🐓

[Henri Charriere]

Note to the congregation: while under the influence of prescribed painkillers immediately following surgery in January 2019, during which time my 🐓 collecting began, I picked up 8 or more of the 16 pieces in the series and came to believe I would be done in ninety (90) days.  My Cousin Vinny criticized the notion continuously failing to take into account I had subsequently determined the original eight were overseas, dominated by PCGS and made the decision to redirect my efforts at acquiring them, already encapsulated at whatever grade they were available. Right now, some 2-1/2 years later, that set is both the current and all-time finest, subject to being superseded by any other collector determined to build the best "possible" set thru endless upgrades.  Not that it should be of earth-shaking importance but "thinking" you may be able to accomplish a difficult feat within artificially established time limits, and "actually doing so," are two different matters. It remains to be seen whether given what's out there, immediately available for acquisition with little or no advance, is possible within my lifetime.    🐓

Edited July 26, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Rewording

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Go for it.

You already have all 16 coins, half of them are already in NGC MS 66 (higher grades than anyone else here, it seems, but you'll have to verify that by diligent browsing of who currently owns "what"), and none of your NGC competition have all 16 coins.

You're 70 years old, probably retired and can afford all of this, it can't cost too much to cross the others, life is short, so take the gamble.

Knowing that you lost a grade on five of your prior crosses, you could size up your final 8 to cross by comparing their appearances and current PCGS grades to the other crossed coins, their crossed outcomes, to guesstimate how you think things will fare on the remaining 8.

Goldfinger is missing the rarest date, 1900, he's got three MS 62, two MS 63, and one MS 64 in the lower eight, and you've got him beat from 1907 — 1914.

HiHo's best set has a 1902 MS 61, 1899 & 1901 at MS 62, 1904 & 1905 at MS 63, 1903 & 1906 at MS 64, but his 1900 has you definitely beat at MS 65.  You win on everything 1907 — 1914.

As HiHo states, NGC's EdgeView holders definitely are an advantage due to the inscriptions on the edges of all of these Roosters… another reason.

Then, retake your photos to standardize their lighting and sharpness — so they all look similar — and tell a story about each coin for each Owner's Comment.  You're done.

So, you'll get to Rank #1, here.

Lastly, keep looking for coins going forward that will improve your collection.  (Get HiHo to sell you his 1900 MS 65?)

[Henri Charriere]

@USAuPzlBxBob. I wish it were that simple...

My PCGS Set is complete.  My NGC's "short set" -- all so-called "restrikes, are consistent though I have 1/2-grades along with raw coins that have been sitting in my desk for two years.

There only a handful of 🐓 Registrants half of whom are serious contenders.  None wish to be contacted and I have no idea how.  (By the way, the majority of HiHo's "retrikes" are 67's. - so he definitely has me beat there, at least on NGC.

I know all the members who have the finest examples but I cannot reasonably expect HiHo to give up a 1900, the rarest in the series just because I need one too. Besides, I seriously doubt he will be receptive to compromising his standing to sole mine. More to the point, I would have no way to contact him. To my knowledge, he has never once spoken up which would afford me the opportunity to contact him.

I have a parallel collection of PCGS  🐓 Which would all have to be crossed to NGC, the vast majority of which were upgraded and left behind.

The gentleman ranked #3 at NCG can rightly claim he has the only certified MS-67+ in the entire world, but it would just be my luck to acquire it at considerable expense only to find out an unprecrdented MS-68 has surfaced. Most, if not all his "short set" (1907-1914 is composed of MS-67's.

How does one establish contact with people who do not wish to be disturbed?  Then there are those who have the highest graded coins, not in any Set Registry anywhere,  

I appreciate your input.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Addition of a critical line.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I hadn't looked at J.D. Foster's Set.  Yeah, he's got some Top Pops on the restrikes, MS 67 on a couple, and even an MS 67+.

If he felt challenged, he could submit them for CACs just to bump his scores on something.  But he's missing a few on the lower eight.

Still, if I were you, I'd cross the lower-eight coins, see how you fare, and stay actively in the hunt.

Their cool looking coins, and I like the brevity of their span… 16 coins.  My puzzle box holds two stacks of 7, and there is room to nest two other coins vertically, but laying on their side-edges, along the double-seven-stacks top edges.  But until this thread a few weeks ago, I never even knew about French Roosters.  Puzzle Box World has one puzzle box left that can hold 16 coins, and it's a dramatic box… very beautiful.  I think it's called a 54 + 1.  Paperwork goes in the lid, 16 NGC's go below, and a Bausch & Lomb 10x, Hastings Triplet Loupe magnifier with nickel plated swing away case can "nest" in the unoccupied corner.

You learn something new here all the time if you stay involved.

 

[Henri Charriere]

I appreciate your advice. Only a handful of the 47 collectors of Roosters 🐓 -- both here, and "over there -- are "active" and only one! has reached out to me.

[Mr.Bill347]

QA, would you consider a good looking raw coin?

https://en.ucoin.net/coin/france-20-francs-1900/?cid=30607

 

[Mr.Bill347]

Only EF but looks nice. Probably won’t meet your standards. Lol

https://www.ma-shops.com/cdma/item.php?id=873800

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2021 at 6:43 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

QA, would you consider a good looking raw coin?

https://en.ucoin.net/coin/france-20-francs-1900/?cid=30607

 

Holy cow!  I hate doing things under pressure, but I would be a fool to pass up on this opportunity. This is absolutely incredible! The rarest date in the series that is highly suggestive of an FDC grade. There is inherent risk of course, buying sight unseen, the offering being a possible hook to lure in interested parties, and worst of all our venerable @VKurtB's voice echoing in my mind: DO NOT BUY SIGHT UNSEEN! It's already nitefall overseas. Yes, I am interested. This "specimen" looks a whole lot better than my MS-64, the number of owners of which can be counted on one hand. Thanks for the tip!

[Mr.Bill347]

Boy am I surprised 😮. I’m glad I could suggest something that just may fill the void! Good luck. IMHO, I would keep your PGCS coins in the current state. Your still way ahead of the pack already. Glad you got excited about the link. Just proves the adage that “Even a blind squirrel finds a nut“ ( no pun intended !)

[VKurtB]

On 8/19/2021 at 6:11 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Holy cow!  I hate doing things under pressure, but I would be a fool to pass up on this opportunity. This is absolutely incredible! The rarest date in the series that is highly suggestive of an FDC grade. There is inherent risk of course, buying sight unseen, the offering being a possible hook to lure in interested parties, and worst of all our venerable @VKurtB's voice echoing in my mind: DO NOT BUY SIGHT UNSEEN! It's already nitefall overseas. Yes, I am interested. This "specimen" looks a whole lot better than my MS-64, the number of owners of which can be counted on one hand. Thanks for the tip!

If you’re up against “only” a 64, a raw coin that photographs nice is a low risk bet. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2021 at 7:01 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Only EF but looks nice. Probably won’t meet your standards. Lol

https://www.ma-shops.com/cdma/item.php?id=873800

 

No way this can be the same coin. EF, in the rarefied stratosphere of CDMA/MA-SHOPS, would be the reason my long-standing Want List didn't set off alarm bells. That is the prevailing price for EF roosters! A Mint State specimen, would command well over 1K. The last time a 1900-dated coin came up on my radar, Liberty Coins was selling an NGC Matte PF-67 for $24,400 two years ago. Very considerate of you to bring this to my attention! I appreciate it!

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2021 at 7:22 PM, VKurtB said:

If you’re up against “only” a 64, a raw coin that photographs nice is a low risk bet. 

It'll just be my luck to have it grade 64+. Has happened before.  The Big question is why is such a precious coin selling for barely more than melt? Gotta be two different coins. I have to amplify that resolution...

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2021 at 7:19 PM, Mr.Bill347 said:

Boy am I surprised 😮. I’m glad I could suggest something that just may fill the void! Good luck. IMHO, I would keep your PGCS coins in the current state. Your still way ahead of the pack already. Glad you got excited about the link. Just proves the adage that “Even a blind squirrel finds a nut“ ( no pun intended !)

Yes indeed, I got excited. This is like the 09-S-VDB of Roosters with only 615,000 minted that year of the 117 Million produced for the entire series. Oddly underpriced.

[Henri Charriere]

Not for nothing, but here's where that 30x loupe comes in handy though I did not need one in this instance. I have cumulative experience to rely on.

I got myself a few MS-67's to get an idea of what one of these coins is supposed to look like, up close and personal. I spent many hours poring over the details. I read some remarks from apparent owners discussing "varieties." Such as extended "nines" on the '14's. You get the picture. 

At first blush, the coin looks magnificent, but looking at it thru the eyes of a "grader," well, let's just say the fields are not pristine and the seemingly minor bruising and scarring and scuffling would weigh heavily against mint state status.  If the price of a coin sold by experts seems low, there would have to be a reason why. If it's too good to be true, it probably is. No way in the world an FDC coin would sell so cheaply. Nevertheless, all things considered, a nice coin!  Probably the nicest non-Mint State Rooster I have seen in quite some time. 🤔

[Henri Charriere]

I do not ordinarily share, much less broadcast, sensitive top-secret national security intelligence over the open airwaves, but, what the heck, I suppose an exception can be made...

Q:  What exactly does the Roostermeister, me, look for when examining a raw 🐓 for the first time, in the absence of formal grading instruction and training?  🤔  

A:  Good question! Believe it or not, I focus in on that area between the back of the Rooster's head and the leading edge of the tail.  I have noticed from experience -- you will not find this in any book! -- that if this area, the groove if you will, is untouched and chatter-free, you've got a top-tier specimen in your hand. I check the legends. If there is no evidence of bird strikes, you've landed yourself a big fish. I do not address wear because I have never seen a 🐓 in less than Mint State condition. No abrasion of any kind. Just light, medium or heavy meteor showers and how much original mint luster remains. That's it!  Nite all!  😉

[Henri Charriere]

A cautionary tale..

The current MA-SHOPS advertisement features selections of what appears to be scores of French 20-franc gold roosters in various grades of condion. 

The novice is obliged to tread this two-page listing cautiously.  There is a question as to whether I found a date I need because of the way the coin is decribed. EF/AU or AU/FDC is meaningless.

I shun half grades because experience has taught me a full-grade offering is inevitable. This leaves me with a coin described, I kid you not, as what I refer to as a hybrid. Remember, they use their own grading system.  For my purposes, a grade of FDC which fully embraces six (6) grades, the equivalent of our MS 65-70 is unhelpful.  I'd have a better shot at playing roulette.  Now when FDC is combined with AU or EF, you've got a real problem on two fronts: paying $500 - $600 for a coin gambling it will complement similarly hard-won coins on your Set Registry. There are collectors who would be delighted with the offerings made of a number of "originals" (1899-1906) and I would not hesitate to urge them to take a look, particularly those at more moderate prices.  It grieves me to say this but the availability of older dates in the higher Mint State grades are a rumor I have spent the better part of two years attempting to track down without success.  I wish my fellow 🐓 collectors the very best of luck!

Edited August 25, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/23/2021 at 8:03 AM, Revenant said:

He keeps referring to it as his #1 set - ...

Recognizing your standing here at NGC, I should have clarified my compilations more clearly. "Rooster Roster," is my No. 1 ranked set at PCGS. If it's any consolation to the gentleman presently ranked No.2 -- whose presentation if far more professional than mine, I would graciously set aside and allow him to assume the throne.

Unknown to most 🐓 collectors, fully half the dates in the 16-coin series are difficult to obtain, particularly in the highest Mint State grades in the U.S.  I am not reasonably proficient in other languages -- ghetto slang does not count -- and upping the ante, I am not risk-averse. Never have been, never will be. 

To whom it may concern, I began my compilation with NGC until I experienced a Eureka moment:  if you want French 20-franc gold roosters, what better place to begin your search than in Europe. I have heard complaints about higher European prices, fees related to conversion of dollars to Euros (or whatever currencies are involved) high bank wire fees and no guarantee you will get your money back if the bank platform officer if the SWIFT figure you provide is off by a single digit.  My attitude is nothing ventured, nothing gained.

My NGC Set Registry, I call my "short set," is not complete but my alternatives are unpalatable. Completing two identical sets defies logic and is a waste of time and money. The only way climbing Everest, two or more times, makes sense is if you are a sherpa. I am a New Yorker, a Crimean Tatar and run an orphanage for Roosters.  I am also a soothsayer:  I predict the gentleman occupying rank #3 on NGC's Set Registry will realize his intention to ascend to the No.1 slot this year, or next, depending on availability; his blitzkrieg made it abundantly clear he is a major contender and not lacking for leads and resources.

Me?  I want my old job back amongst the buretye variously called extracteur de chariot, rickshaw puller, or barring that, a plain old chiffonnier.  😉