1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Graded MS-65....no holder !! 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:58 AM, MarkFeld said:

There was already a resolution, prior to the previous sale of the coin in 2002. This is from the catalog description of the coin at that time: 
“On January 25, 2001, just four days before jury selection was to have begun, The United States Government and attorneys for Stephen Fenton reached an out-of-court settlement. It was a singular agreement, and permitted the sale of the 1933 Double Eagle described in this catalogue.The United States Government will officially monetize and issue this single 1933 Double Eagle, making it unique and the only one certified for private ownership.”

 

Sounds like a full resolution to me. And the only honest way to go. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:30 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You're aware that the Treasury/Mint take the position (or did take it) that they can seize lots of rarities like the 1913 Liberty Nickel, right ?

Good. I agree. I think they should stop talking about it and DO IT. I’ll even drive them to ANA headquarters next month to seize their two 1913 Liberty nickels. Volunteer labor driver, I won’t even ask for gas money. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2022 at 1:15 PM, numisport said:

Still missing my point Mark. If this coin appears at auction outside of a sealed holder they will likely want to have that coin in their possession because it is the property of the U.S. Government until they can confirm it is THE ONLY legal to own '33 Double Eagle. That would make me nervous. Have you read 'All That Glisters is Not Gold' by Stephen W. King ?

The legal ‘33 has been so lavishly photographed that its diagnostics are well known to the hobby. There is no doubt which coin it is. 
 

Goldfinger, how many different 1933 DE’s have you seen with your own eyes, not a photo? I have seen all 10 Langbords, both Smithsonian pieces, the Farouk/Fenton piece, and the one voluntarily surrendered by a major name in numismatics after all appeals were exhausted in the Langbord case. Don’t EVEN try to tell me a crybaby story about these coins being “lost to the hobby”. The fact that the government owns them makes them INFINITELY more accessible than when they were in private (read: criminal) hands. My tally is I’ve seen, with mine own eyes, 14 of them. But then, I go places. I don’t just stare at screens or obsess over some guy’s book. Full disclosure: I own two of that guy’s other books. 

[zadok]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes it was proven, by the only system we have. By a preponderance of the evidence at a civil trial. 12 neutral jurors said so.  This why we have voir dire, to eliminate jurors with an axe to grind … like you. 

....im sure u meant to type..."neutered jurors".....

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2022 at 5:40 PM, zadok said:

....im sure u meant to type..."neutered jurors".....

Depends what you mean. It’s so insanely easy to NOT get on a jury these days. Counsel for both sides tend to want blank slates that they can draw on with their rhetorical chalk. Show the SLIGHTEST familiarity with any concept used in the case, and you’ll be an instant excusal for cause.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:11 AM, Cat Bath said:

Too many times the mint didn't seem to care about dates on coins.  I'm assuming Switt was there every day asking about the 1933 until the cashier relented and traded like for like. Maybe the cashier wasn't suppose to do this but that isn't Switt's fault. It's not like he pushed past security and took them.

Exactly....a coin-for-coin exchange was legal and there was no formal prohibition of releasing the 1933's at that time either in bulk OR via exchange.  Folks were waiting to see what the brand-new FDR Administration was going to do.

But the expectation was that the 1933 Double Eagle coins WOULD eventually be released -- that's why they kept striking them into May, a full month after exchanges got officially paused.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:47 AM, numisport said:

Even though Oliver Douglas was a man with a great legal mind and a man of considerable financial means he could not have a telephone installed inside his house. Heck he couldn't even get his sliding closet doors fixed 

Those darn Monroe Brothers. 

And I blame Mr. Haney for the phone !  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/12/2022 at 2:52 PM, VKurtB said:

The legal ‘33 has been so lavishly photographed that its diagnostics are well known to the hobby. There is no doubt which coin it is. Goldfinger, how many different 1933 DE’s have you seen with your own eyes, not a photo? I have seen all 10 Langbords, both Smithsonian pieces, the Farouk/Fenton piece, and the one voluntarily surrendered by a major name in numismatics after all appeals were exhausted in the Langbord case. Don’t EVEN try to tell me a crybaby story about these coins being “lost to the hobby”. The fact that the government owns them makes them INFINITELY more accessible than when they were in private (read: criminal) hands. My tally is I’ve seen, with mine own eyes, 14 of them. But then, I go places. I don’t just stare at screens or obsess over some guy’s book. Full disclosure: I own two of that guy’s other books. 

The coins the government has at Fort Knox have been visible to the public or on display or seen for about 10-12 days since 2002.

10 coins...visible 10-12 days in total....over 20 years.

Infinitely accessible, huh ?  

 

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:08 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Exactly....a coin-for-coin exchange was legal and there was no formal prohibition of releasing the 1933's at that time either in bulk OR via exchange.  Folks were waiting to see what the brand-new FDR Administration was going to do.

But the expectation was that the 1933 Double Eagle coins WOULD eventually be released -- that's why they kept striking them into May, a full month after exchanges got officially paused.

This is 100% male bovine feces, Goldfinger, and what’s more, you KNOW it is. Numerous museums offered to surrender other dates for 1933’s and were refused each and every time. At least one of the cashier or Switt committed a criminal act, or perhaps both.  Either way, the 1933DE’s were ALL STOLEN GOODS, PERIOD!!!

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:19 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The coins the government has at Fort Knox have been visible to the public or on display or seen for about 10-12 days since 2002.

10 coins...visible 10-12 days in total....over 20 years.

Infinitely accessible, huh ?  

 

Compared to the years in Langbord hands? Yah. Infinitely accessible. You’re comparing a small number with zero. I am really losing ANY remaining respect I had for you, which admittedly isn’t much. I went and saw them all. Did you? Or was your nose too far up Roger’s rectum?

Edited February 13, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:08 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Exactly....a coin-for-coin exchange was legal and there was no formal prohibition of releasing the 1933's at that time either in bulk OR via exchange.  Folks were waiting to see what the brand-new FDR Administration was going to do.

But the expectation was that the 1933 Double Eagle coins WOULD eventually be released -- that's why they kept striking them into May, a full month after exchanges got officially paused.

Well you can’t fix stupid. FDR considered gold fundamentally evil. There was no way they were ever going to be released. 
 

READ THE STINKING SOTHEBY’S HISTORY WRITTEN FOR THE WEINMAN SALE. THAT IS THE CORRECT STORY, NOT WHAT RWB HAS WRITTEN!!!!!!!! RWB’S STORY IS PURE SPECULATIVE FANTASY.

 

…or as he himself said it ATS, the story he was paid enough to tell. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:09 PM, VKurtB said:

This is 100% male bovine feces, Goldfinger, and what’s more, you KNOW it is. Numerous museums offered to surrender other dates for 1933’s and were refused each and every time. 

Source ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:16 PM, VKurtB said:

Well you can’t fix stupid. FDR considered gold fundamentally evil. There was no way they were ever going to be released. READ THE STINKING SOTHEBY’S HISTORY WRITTEN FOR THE WEINMAN SALE. THAT IS THE CORRECT STORY, NOT WHAT RWB HAS WRITTEN!!!!!!!! RWB’S STORY IS PURE SPECULATIVE FANTASY. …or as he himself said it ATS, the story he was paid enough to tell. 

Well, I don't have that one yet but I have the 2002 Sotheby's catalog.  I'll see if they have something more convincing. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 3:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, I don't have that one yet but I have the 2002 Sotheby's catalog.  I'll see if they have something more convincing. 

Big hint, GF69: it states that even the legal piece didn’t leave the Mint until February of1937, waaaaaaaaaaay after any like for like exchanges were unambiguously illegal. None left in 1933. The idea that ANY 1933 DE’s left the Mint in Spring of 1933 is purely a fairy tale. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 3:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Source ?

Literally every source except RWB. 

[VKurtB]

The basic malady that you are suffering from about 1933 is you have chosen to believe Roger’s fairy tale - a fairy tale written for the highest bidder, at the story teller’s own admission. 
 

Now here’s where it gets weird. Could Roger’s story have happened? Yes, there is nothing preventing it from having happened. Except it didn’t happen. The coins were in the Mint until February 1937. They could have left in 1933, but did not. Just like I could have won a big biathlon event in the 1980’s, but I missed too many shots. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[Alex in PA.]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:55 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s Philly, after all, and they are emblematic of Philly’s crime family history.

I must agree with that statement.  When I came home to PA on leave in 1966 I stopped in Philly to see some cousins.  My cousin Jimmy (a White boy) worked in South Philadelphia.  I asked him how come his car was never stolen being parked in South Philly?.  Jimmy said:  "Because I work for the 'Family'!"  I believe he said he went from bar to bar and would open up the juke box, take a package out and deposit it in another bar's juke box.  I didn't ask many questions after that.

BTW:  I went to Legal War with the Federal Government over one sheet of paper.  An Army medical record that for 20 years the V.A. said didn't exist.  I went through every Veterans Court in the United States with only one stop when I gave up.  That was the Supreme Court.  About a year after I gave up I met up with Senator Pat Toomey and told him about it.  Six months later I got a letter from the Veterans Administration in Philadelphia containing a copy of that 'missing, lost, stolen' medical record.  I should have listened to my Mom when she used to say:  "You can't fight City Hall."

[MarkFeld]

On 2/13/2022 at 5:47 PM, VKurtB said:

Big hint, GF69: it states that even the legal piece didn’t leave the Mint until February of1937, waaaaaaaaaaay after any like for like exchanges were unambiguously illegal. None left in 1933. The idea that ANY 1933 DE’s left the Mint in Spring of 1933 is purely a fairy tale. 

I looked at the catalog description of the lot (linked below) and must have missed the part about when any of the coins are known to have left the Mint. Please quote that part for us.

Thank you.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman/the-1933-double-eagle

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

On 2/13/2022 at 5:54 PM, VKurtB said:

The basic malady that you are suffering from about 1933 is you have chosen to believe Roger’s fairy tale - a fairy tale written for the highest bidder, at the story teller’s own admission. 
 

Now here’s where it gets weird. Could Roger’s story have happened? Yes, there is nothing preventing it from having happened. Except it didn’t happen The coins were in the Mint until February 1937. 

I looked at the catalog description of the lot (linked below) and must have missed the part about when any of the coins are known to have left the Mint. Please quote that part for us.

Thank you.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman/the-1933-double-eagle

 

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:34 PM, MarkFeld said:

I looked at the catalog description of the lot (linked below) and must have missed the part about when any of the coins are known to have left the Mint. Please quote that part for us.

Thank you.

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman/the-1933-double-eagle

 

 

 

 

It’s in the provenance section. It is LITERALLY right there in the document you linked. As Rafiki said to Simba, “look harrrrrder”.Geez, Mark, I had you credited with more thoroughness.   I guess I was wrong, huh? I guess I have to add Mark Feld to the fairy tale believer list, huh? Not your fault, Mark. Rare gold makes LOTS of people LOSE THEIR BARKING MINDS!

Edited February 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:26 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I must agree with that statement.  When I came home to PA on leave in 1966 I stopped in Philly to see some cousins.  My cousin Jimmy (a White boy) worked in South Philadelphia.  I asked him how come his car was never stolen being parked in South Philly?.  Jimmy said:  "Because I work for the 'Family'!"  I believe he said he went from bar to bar and would open up the juke box, take a package out and deposit it in another bar's juke box.  I didn't ask many questions after that.

BTW:  I went to Legal War with the Federal Government over one sheet of paper.  An Army medical record that for 20 years the V.A. said didn't exist.  I went through every Veterans Court in the United States with only one stop when I gave up.  That was the Supreme Court.  About a year after I gave up I met up with Senator Pat Toomey and told him about it.  Six months later I got a letter from the Veterans Administration in Philadelphia containing a copy of that 'missing, lost, stolen' medical record.  I should have listened to my Mom when she used to say:  "You can't fight City Hall."

I worked one desk away in Harrisburg for part of Little Nicky Scarfo’s appellate defense team. And my boss had a reputation as a mafioso. He intentionally manufactured that reputation. One Attorney General believed it and went after him. The AG ended up going to state prison. Ernie Preate was that AG. From gubernatorial candidate to state prison in a finger snap. 

[MarkFeld]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:37 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s in the provenance section. It is LITERALLY right there in the document you linked. As Rafiki said to Simba, “look harrrrrder”.Geez, Mark, I had you credited with more thoroughness.   I guess I was wrong, huh? I guess I have to add Mark Feld to the fairy tale believer list, huh? Not your fault, Mark. Rare gold makes LOTS of people LOSE THEIR BARKING MINDS!

I just looked at the provenance section (again) and I don’t see any proof regarding when the coins actually left the Mint. If it were known when that occurred, presumably, there would have been a report of missing coins at that time. That is, unless there had been an exchange, for which there is no record. Additionally, I seriously doubt that the cashier would wait approximately four years after he first had access to the coins, to steal them, exchange them or otherwise get them into the hands of Switt. 

For the record, I don’t care about “rare gold” any more than I do rare cooper or silver.
 

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:19 PM, MarkFeld said:

I just looked at the provenance section (again) and I don’t see any proof regarding when the coins actually left the Mint. If it were known when that occurred, presumably, there would have been a report of missing coins at that time. That is, unless there had been an exchange, for which there is no record. Additionally, I seriously doubt that the cashier would wait approximately four years after he first had access to the coins, to steal them, exchange them or otherwise get them into the hands of Switt. 

For the record, I don’t care about “rare gold” any more than I do rare cooper or silver.
 

The “proof” is the entirety of the circumstances. In February 1937 the world figuratively “exploded” (if a dozen or so can be an explosion) with available 1933’s. None were offered to ANYBODY until then, but then in February 1937, WHAM, they were trading like mad among a small set of insiders in primarily New York and the Philly area. That’s where the date comes from. It has faaaaaaaar more plausibility than Roger’s fairy tale. 
 

Also, February of 1937 is when the big move to Fort Knox was beginning to happen and long sealed vaults were being opened for transport of their contents to Kentucky. 
 

Look, I get it. Coin guys want these to be legit so bad they can taste it. It’s what they do, UNLESS they have spent a huge chunk of their career around the law. IN FACT, a huge chunk of coin guys like it even BETTER if law violations are involved. I get that too. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:30 PM, VKurtB said:

I understand that’s where the date comes from, but like it or not, it’s unknown when the coins left the Mint.
There’s no need to keep bringing up Roger’s name. I (and maybe even you, too) know of well respected, highly knowledgeable numismatists who believe that the coins were legally exchanged and well before 1937.
I’ve said what I had to say, so leave will many, if not most of the subsequent posts, to you.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by MarkFeld

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:39 PM, MarkFeld said:

I understand that’s where the date comes from, but like it or not, it’s unknown when the coins left the Mint.
There’s no need to keep bringing up Roger’s name. I (and maybe even you, too) know of well respected, highly knowledgeable numismatists who believe that the coins were legally exchanged and well before 1937.
I’ve said what I had to say, so leave will many, if not most of the subsequent posts, to you.

 

They WANT TO BELIEVE IT. No dispute there. But deep down in their guts, I don’t believe ANY of them factually believes it. If they do, I don’t ever want to trust them. 
 

Roger’s, or any of these other dudes’ date theories very well carries the day in a “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard case. Not enough to convict. Too much doubt. But in a preponderance case, the government doesn’t need hard proof, just a more likely story than the alternative offered by the non-government party. That’s nasty business, but it’s the law. 
 

In fact, the gummint didn’t even have the burden of proof. The Langbords did. And they didn’t come within a country mile. The gummint only had the burden on the procedural question that went to the 3rd circuit and was reviewed by the SCOTUS. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:09 PM, VKurtB said:

This is 100% male bovine feces, Goldfinger, and what’s more, you KNOW it is. Numerous museums offered to surrender other dates for 1933’s and were refused each and every time. At least one of the cashier or Switt committed a criminal act, or perhaps both.  Either way, the 1933DE’s were ALL STOLEN GOODS, PERIOD!!!

...an unauthorized act does not equal a criminal act.....n at that specific point in time the value of said coins was exactly face value n equal value exchange does not constitute a crime as no loss of value can be demonstrated....

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:12 PM, zadok said:

...an unauthorized act does not equal a criminal act.....n at that specific point in time the value of said coins was exactly face value n equal value exchange does not constitute a crime as no loss of value can be demonstrated....

The law disagrees. Some people agree with you, but they are all wrong. Even common fairness may agree with you. That doesn’t matter. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:12 PM, zadok said:

...an unauthorized act does not equal a criminal act.....n at that specific point in time the value of said coins was exactly face value n equal value exchange does not constitute a crime as no loss of value can be demonstrated....

If it was indeed 1937, as most scholars agree, ANY pay out of gold coin for any reason was a crime. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:47 PM, VKurtB said:

Big hint, GF69: it states that even the legal piece didn’t leave the Mint until February of1937, waaaaaaaaaaay after any like for like exchanges were unambiguously illegal. None left in 1933. The idea that ANY 1933 DE’s left the Mint in Spring of 1933 is purely a fairy tale. 

Maybe, maybe not.  But exactly what perks were allowed insiders at the Philly Mint is a bit difficult to say.  If someone asked to "reserve" 10 DEs but didn't have the gold or money to exchange/buy them at that time, it's quite possible a mint superior allowed them to be transacted at a later date.  

Philly Mint employees knew that there was high demand for new-released gold coins from Philly, Boston, and NY collectors.  That is well-established.

This entire fiasco was because the government, not missing any gold, decided after the fact (i.e., after the coins had appreciated) that none should have left the Philly Mint as if they were U.S. War Department Civil Defense plans.

The illegal THEFT (confiscation + revaluation upwards to $35/oz.) of American' citizen's gold was the real crime, not the questionable exchange of 25 (?) pre-1933 Saints for 25 1933's at a then windfall of maybe $500 for the entire stash of 25 (?) coins.

It's clear you and those of us who disagree with the treatment of the 1933's since 1944 are never going to agree.  What makes your position unique is you are honest and upfront that you don't care if the coins existed, were confiscated, or even destroyed.

Fair enough, but since we feel otherwise, that's why we are glad they were exchanged out of the Philly Mint, regardless of the timeframe and whether a Philly Mint took some liberties to release a few coins sought after by coin collectors.

Edited February 14, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:50 PM, VKurtB said:

Literally every source except RWB. 

The Sotheby's Catalog is not "a source", Kurt. 

RWB, QDB, and R.W. Julian all agree that coins were legally allowed to be released through various means.  None supported the government's confiscation of the coins and I think all are well-established as being among our most thorough and accomplished numismatic researchers.  The ANA and PNG also opposed the government's confiscation of the coins.