1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Graded MS-65....no holder !! 1 1

[zadok]

On 2/10/2022 at 11:16 PM, VKurtB said:

That’s quite a charge to suggest. Unsupported by facts, and unduly harsh. The jury ruled. Deal with it.  The OTHER thing the jury lacked that all the critic commentators have, is a rooting interest in the outcome, something that gets you EXCLUDED from the jury pool. I served as a jury foreman in that same exact courtroom. (Meth criminal case.) Your suggestion is a PERSONAL affront to me. 
 

The ONLY THING that the government had to prove is that it is SLIGHTLY more likely than not that the 10 coins left under surreptitious circumstances. When they proved that EACH AND EVERY 1933 DE, with the ONLY exception being the Smithsonian pieces, went through Izzy Switt’s hands (EVERY ONE, even the Farouk) the case was won. 

...WON is a very subjective term...there is winning with honor n then there is just winning because some one declared it so...there are numerous instances in the sports world where the "real winner" didnt win...in this instance the umpire or referee was not impartial, the verdict was pre-ordained as evidenced in the manner in which the trial was controlled...there will always be a stench associated with this verdict n the US gov't has nothing honorable to boast about in their "victory"...

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:02 PM, zadok said:

...WON is a very subjective term...there is winning with honor n then there is just winning because some one declared it so...there are numerous instances in the sports world where the "real winner" didnt win...in this instance the umpire or referee was not impartial, the verdict was pre-ordained as evidenced in the manner in which the trial was controlled...there will always be a stench associated with this verdict n the US gov't has nothing honorable to boast about in their "victory"...

This is from Manhattan Gold and Silver’s website:

”During the resulting trial in July 2011, the court found that, because the coins were stolen from the government in 1933, the Switts were not the rightful owners and were owed no compensation. ”

 

End of story. 

[zadok]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Ever hear of “receiving stolen goods”? It is a crime. Look it up. The Langbords could have been charged with it. And probably would have been if the butt-stupid Rendell decision at the 3rd circuit not been overturned en banc. Yes, I believe the entire Switt/Langbord clan was and is a crime family. It’s Philly, after all, and they are emblematic of Philly’s crime family history. 

....there in lies the crux of the situation....theft was never proven, nor could it be proven...there wasnt anything missing....

[zadok]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:05 PM, VKurtB said:

This is from Manhattan Gold and Silver’s website:

”During the resulting trial in July 2011, the court found that, because the coins were stolen from the government in 1933, the Switts were not the rightful owners and were owed no compensation. ”

 

End of story. 

...again...stolen, not proven....

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:05 PM, zadok said:

....there in lies the crux of the situation....theft was never proven, nor could it be proven...there wasnt anything missing....

Not true. No 1933’s were EVER authorized for distribution and ALL expropriated examples came through Switt, a man with a considerable rap sheet. If it were on the up and up, why do all come through ONE MAN, a notoriously dirty man?

Edited February 11, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:07 PM, zadok said:

...again...stolen, not proven....

Yes it was proven, by the only system we have. By a preponderance of the evidence at a civil trial. 12 neutral jurors said so.  This why we have voir dire, to eliminate jurors with an axe to grind … like you. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes it was proven, by the only system we have. By a preponderance of the evidence at a civil trial. 

...ur grasping now... the gov't knew they couldnt prove theft because there was no audit trail just conjecture n speculation, thats why they choose the legal ownership route n didnt try it as a criminal case because they knew no honest jury would convict....same as the legal status of the 1913 V nickels, they would never get a verdict for theft....

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:14 PM, zadok said:

...ur grasping now... the gov't knew they couldnt prove theft because there was no audit trail just conjecture n speculation, thats why they choose the legal ownership route n didnt try it as a criminal case because they knew no honest jury would convict....same as the legal status of the 1913 V nickels, they would never get a verdict for theft....

The legal ownership route was the correct humane strategy rather than trying to put a 90 year old lady in jail, which she probably deserved. Why? Because I believe she was in on it the whole time. It’s the only thing that explains the incredibly “convenient” timing of the “discovery”. Yeahhh, discovery, that’s the ticket. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:53 PM, VKurtB said:

The legal ownership route was the correct humane strategy rather than trying to put a 90 year old lady in jail, which she probably deserved. Why? Because I believe she was in on it the whole time. It’s the only thing that explains the incredibly “convenient” timing of the “discovery”. Yeahhh, discovery, that’s the ticket. 

As far as I am concerned, the government SHOULD go after all 5 1913 Libnicks. They’d be completely justified. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:55 PM, VKurtB said:

Ever hear of “receiving stolen goods”? It is a crime. Look it up. The Langbords could have been charged with it. And probably would have been if the butt-stupid Rendell decision at the 3rd circuit not been overturned en banc. Yes, I believe the entire Switt/Langbord clan was and is a crime family. It’s Philly, after all, and they are emblematic of Philly’s crime family history. 

Now you're really going over the top.  Crime family ?  Receiving STOLEN goods ?  How did Izzy steal them -- by giving something of equal value ?  

It's done ALL the time, Kurt, or do you think Charles Barber just happened to be the high and sole bidder for the 7 or 8 MCMVII UHRs that he had in his estate ?  No, he paid "fair value" -- $20 (!!! ) and got the coins which were sold probably for 100x that amount after he croaked.

Insiders get special deals ALL the time.  If Izzy got the 1933's when it was debateful if it was legal or months later when it was more clear it wan't, there still wasn't any harm.  No formal DO NOT RELEASE order was given regarding the 1933's and coin-for-coin exchanges were DONE ALL THE TIME.  The coins being exchanged, however, went up 40-50 fold in the next 10 years and THAT is the reason why the Treasury/Mint went after the coins.  It resented goldbugs like Izzy making in 1 transaction what clowns like Leland Howard made in a year.

The coins are sitting in Fort Knox generating NO INTEREST among the public and NO TAX REVENUE for the government when they could be the centerpiece of some great promotions of coin collecting and putting $$$ into the government's coffers.

Lose-Lose, thanks to career beauracrats. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:05 PM, VKurtB said:

This is from Manhattan Gold and Silver’s website:  ”During the resulting trial in July 2011, the court found that, because the coins were stolen from the government in 1933, the Switts were not the rightful owners and were owed no compensation. ”

End of story. 

Yeah, everyone knows Manhattan Gold & Silver's webite is THE legal authority.  It's right up there in the legal Hall Of Fame along with John Marshall, Leonard Hand, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Oliver Wendell Douglas, and Antonin Scalia.  

I think the website was even featured in a few episodes of "Law & Order." 

Edited February 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Not true. No 1933’s were EVER authorized for distribution and ALL expropriated examples came through Switt, a man with a considerable rap sheet. If it were on the up and up, why do all come through ONE MAN, a notoriously dirty man?

If he's such a thief and such a "dirty man"....how come he was a VIP at the Philadelphia Mint through the 1960's ? 

I would think if the guy STOLE valuable coins they'd have barred him pronto.  Instead, he's taking his grandkids on VIP tours when they were kids. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:09 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes it was proven, by the only system we have. By a preponderance of the evidence at a civil trial. 12 neutral jurors said so.  This why we have voir dire, to eliminate jurors with an axe to grind … like you. 

I would have appreciated a judge or at least 1 juror with a knowledge of Mint coin exchange policies.

Or an NBA fan familiar with "No Harm, No Foul." 

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Now you're really going over the top.  Crime family ?  Receiving STOLEN goods ?  How did Izzy steal them -- by giving something of equal value ?  

It's done ALL the time, Kurt, or do you think Charles Barber just happened to be the high and sole bidder for the 7 or 8 MCMVII UHRs that he had in his estate ?  No, he paid "fair value" -- $20 (!!! ) and got the coins which were sold probably for 100x that amount after he croaked.

Insiders get special deals ALL the time.  If Izzy got the 1933's when it was debateful if it was legal or months later when it was more clear it wan't, there still wasn't any harm.  No formal DO NOT RELEASE order was given regarding the 1933's and coin-for-coin exchanges were DONE ALL THE TIME.  The coins being exchanged, however, went up 40-50 fold in the next 10 years and THAT is the reason why the Treasury/Mint went after the coins.  It resented goldbugs like Izzy making in 1 transaction what clowns like Leland Howard made in a year.

The coins are sitting in Fort Knox generating NO INTEREST among the public and NO TAX REVENUE for the government when they could be the centerpiece of some great promotions of coin collecting and putting $$$ into the government's coffers.

Lose-Lose, thanks to career beauracrats. 

You seem to want to say a date for date swap is okay and legal. It’s not. If I have a 2020 P cent and I swap it for a 1943D aluminum, that’s an even swap, right. Don’t be so darned intentionally ignorant. 
 

Had they been doing it? Yes, apparently. And maybe a 1931 / 1932 swap was … not okay but done. Anything involving ANY 1933 DE was NOT okay. They were never issued. Period. How do we know? Legal normally entitled things like museums maintaining full sets were UNIVERSALLY refused, no matter how prestigious. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:03 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I would have appreciated a judge or at least 1 juror with a knowledge of Mint coin exchange policies.

Or an NBA fan familiar with "No Harm, No Foul." 

Nice to hear you’d like biased judges and jurors in federal court. Let me know when you achieve that and I’ll leave the country. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If he's such a thief and such a "dirty man"....how come he was a VIP at the Philadelphia Mint through the 1960's ? 

I would think if the guy STOLE valuable coins they'd have barred him pronto.  Instead, he's taking his grandkids on VIP tours when they were kids. 

At that point no one knew how dirty Switt was, or even more disturbing, knew and either didn’t care or knew and liked him that way. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:59 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yeah, everyone knows Manhattan Gold & Silver's webite is THE legal authority.  It's right up there in the legal Hall Of Fame along with John Marshall, Leonard Hand, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Oliver Wendell Douglas, and Antonin Scalia.  

I think the website was even featured in a few episodes of "Law & Order." 

Wasn’t Oliver Wendell Douglas a character on Green Acres? Mmmm, Eva Gaborrrrrr. 

Maybe Arnold Ziffle could have been a juror. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:40 PM, VKurtB said:

Wasn’t Oliver Wendell Douglas a character on Green Acres? Mmmm, Eva Gaborrrrrr. Maybe Arnold Ziffle could have been a juror. 

Yup, he was.  Good catch !   And yes...Eva Gabor especially in Season 1 was one of the most beautiful women ever on a TV sitcom.

Arnold Ziffel would have been an improvement on some of those jurors.  Or as judge. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:59 PM, VKurtB said:

You seem to want to say a date for date swap is okay and legal. It’s not. If I have a 2020 P cent and I swap it for a 1943D aluminum, that’s an even swap, right. Don’t be so darned intentionally ignorant. 

Um.....2020 vs. 1943 is a 77 year difference.  I am pretty sure folks going to the Philadelphia Mint were just getting the next year's coin....a jump on the official release, at best.

1933 vs. 1932 Saint is NOT 2020-P vs. 1943-D Aluminum cent.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:38 PM, VKurtB said:

At that point no one knew how dirty Switt was, or even more disturbing, knew and either didn’t care or knew and liked him that way. 

If you don't like the goldbugs of yesteryear, that's one thing.  But those guys weren't in violation of the law and Constitution, the Roosevelt Administration was the one skating on thin ice.

Banning the private ownership of gold (except if you were a "dealer" or "collector") ?  Taking $2,000 of coins from Switt -- no compensation or reimbursement -- on a license technicality ?  Seizing coins ?  Harassing hobbyists ?

You're aware that the Treasury/Mint take the position (or did take it) that they can seize lots of rarities like the 1913 Liberty Nickel, right ?

[Cat Bath]

Too many times the mint didn't seem to care about dates on coins.

I'm assuming Switt was there every day asking about the 1933 until the cashier relented and traded like for like.

Maybe the cashier wasn't suppose to do this but that isn't Switt's fault. It's not like he pushed past security and took them.

[numisport]

On 5/4/2021 at 9:16 PM, MarkFeld said:

So you can conclude that it looks like a “solid 66”, based just upon an obverse image? And despite the apparent contact on most of Liberty’s left (facing right) leg and on her breast area?

Do you think it's strange that NGC does not show images of that coin ? Without asking NGC has imaged every coin I've submitted in the last 10 years or so regardless of how it was submitted even reholdered coins.

[MarkFeld]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:11 AM, Cat Bath said:

Too many times the mint didn't seem to care about dates on coins.

I'm assuming Switt was there every day asking about the 1933 until the cashier relented and traded like for like.

Maybe the cashier wasn't suppose to do this but that isn't Switt's fault. It's not like he pushed past security and took them.

Agreed, it seems that he didn’t steal the coins or do anything illegal. At that time, as far as the Mint was concerned, one date was the same value as and interchangeable with another.

[numisport]

This thread is a long one so pardon any duplication but shouldn't the Secret Service confiscate this coin when it surfaces for resale just to confirm it IS the only one legal to own ? 

Then how much money and how long do you think it would take to prove it was THE coin before you could get it back ? 

[MarkFeld]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:59 PM, VKurtB said:

You seem to want to say a date for date swap is okay and legal. It’s not. If I have a 2020 P cent and I swap it for a 1943D aluminum, that’s an even swap, right. Don’t be so darned intentionally ignorant. 
 

Had they been doing it? Yes, apparently. And maybe a 1931 / 1932 swap was … not okay but done. Anything involving ANY 1933 DE was NOT okay. They were never issued. Period. How do we know? Legal normally entitled things like museums maintaining full sets were UNIVERSALLY refused, no matter how prestigious. 

You accuse him of being “intentionally ignorant” and then use a wildly off-base analogy. Your only defense to not being a hypocrite would be if your analogy was unintentionally ignorant.😬

[numisport]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:40 PM, VKurtB said:

Wasn’t Oliver Wendell Douglas a character on Green Acres? Mmmm, Eva Gaborrrrrr. 

Maybe Arnold Ziffle could have been a juror. 

Even though Oliver Douglas was a man with a great legal mind and a man of considerable financial means he could not have a telephone installed inside his house. Heck he couldn't even get his sliding closet doors fixed 

[MarkFeld]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:28 AM, numisport said:

This thread is a long one so pardon any duplication but shouldn't the Secret Service confiscate this coin when it surfaces for resale just to confirm it IS the only one legal to own ? 

Then how much money and how long do you think it would take to prove it was THE coin before you could get it back ? 

There was already a resolution, prior to the previous sale of the coin in 2002. This is from the catalog description of the coin at that time: 
“On January 25, 2001, just four days before jury selection was to have begun, The United States Government and attorneys for Stephen Fenton reached an out-of-court settlement. It was a singular agreement, and permitted the sale of the 1933 Double Eagle described in this catalogue.The United States Government will officially monetize and issue this single 1933 Double Eagle, making it unique and the only one certified for private ownership.”

 

[numisport]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:58 AM, MarkFeld said:

There was already a resolution, prior to the previous sale of the coin in 2002. This is from the catalog description of the coin at that time: 
“On January 25, 2001, just four days before jury selection was to have begun, The United States Government and attorneys for Stephen Fenton reached an out-of-court settlement. It was a singular agreement, and permitted the sale of the 1933 Double Eagle described in this catalogue.The United States Government will officially monetize and issue this single 1933 Double Eagle, making it unique and the only one certified for private ownership.”

 

 

On 2/12/2022 at 10:58 AM, MarkFeld said:

There was already a resolution, prior to the previous sale of the coin in 2002. This is from the catalog description of the coin at that time: 
“On January 25, 2001, just four days before jury selection was to have begun, The United States Government and attorneys for Stephen Fenton reached an out-of-court settlement. It was a singular agreement, and permitted the sale of the 1933 Double Eagle described in this catalogue.The United States Government will officially monetize and issue this single 1933 Double Eagle, making it unique and the only one certified for private ownership.”

 

My point was that if the Secret Service chose to review that coin for authenticity for resale it would be much easier to know that it was not a counterfeit if it was in an NGC/PCGS holder.

[MarkFeld]

On 2/12/2022 at 12:35 PM, numisport said:

 

My point was that if the Secret Service chose to review that coin for authenticity for resale it would be much easier to know that it was not a counterfeit if it was in an NGC/PCGS holder.

The coin was subsequently reviewed by PCGS and CAC, and in or out of a holder, it would be very easy to match to its images.

[numisport]

On 2/12/2022 at 1:53 PM, MarkFeld said:

The coin was subsequently reviewed by PCGS and CAC, and in or out of a holder, it would be very easy to match to its images.

Still missing my point Mark. If this coin appears at auction outside of a sealed holder they will likely want to have that coin in their possession because it is the property of the U.S. Government until they can confirm it is THE ONLY legal to own '33 Double Eagle. That would make me nervous. Have you read 'All That Glisters is Not Gold' by Stephen W. King ?