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1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Graded MS-65....no holder !!
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237 posts in this topic

45 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You blew it, Kurt.....should have said loudly "Hey, it's Ginger Grant from GILLIGANS ISLAND !!" and pointed towards the door....grabbed the coin....and RAN !! xD

And I was a spring chicken of only 49 and 5 years before my cerebral hemorrhage, so I could still “pick em up and put em down” then. Now, I’d have trouble keeping up with a toddler. 

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19 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The OBSESSION of the government towards these coins borders on the absurd.  Wished they showed as much concern for financial and monetary integrity when Russian cyberwarriors or Chinese counterfeiters were polluting our shores.

And that 1996 sting operation at the Waldorf was ridiculous.  It's a coin, for crissakes, not a plutonium trigger for a bomb. xD

Exactly what most of us believe. Absolutely right. By the way, I just viewed the video presentation at Sotheby's website, I have to say they did an excellent job in presenting the story. Heck, if I were a multi-billionaire I would bid to win it! Kudos to everyone, to NGC's MS-66, and to Sotheby's presentation. God Bless.

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Does anyone know the last day the coin resided at The World Trade Center?  One article I found says it was moved to Fort Knox "a couple of weeks before the attack."  That places its last day at The World Trade Center in August 2001, but there is no specific day mentioned.

I was born in late August, two weeks before September 11 (August 29) so I'm sort of curious if it was moved on my birthday.

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On 6/8/2021 at 10:59 AM, Tyrock said:

Amazing. Watched the Sotheby's auction and the coin sold for $18,872,250.00.  The auction started at 10:00 AM in New York and was over in about 10 minutes. The inverted Jenny plate block sold for $4,860,000.00 and the 1856 British Guiana Magenta sold for $8,307,000.00. Truly amazing and the Sotheby's website has an excellent history of the coin. By the way, I had originally said that the coin sold for $19,509,750.00 as that is the figure Sotheby's gave. Now they have changed it to the lower figure. Anyone know what's going on with Sotheby's conflicting prices?

The 1933 Saint-Gaudens went for above the forecasted range -- and smashed the old record.  The 2 stamps went for below the estimates.  

Another confirmation that coins and numismatics have legs and stamps are really hurting, IMO.

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On 6/7/2021 at 6:08 PM, uri-goldberg said:

Exactly what most of us believe. Absolutely right. By the way, I just viewed the video presentation at Sotheby's website, I have to say they did an excellent job in presenting the story. Heck, if I were a multi-billionaire I would bid to win it! Kudos to everyone, to NGC's MS-66, and to Sotheby's presentation. God Bless.

The 1933 Saint is graded MS-65 CAC.(thumbsu

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9 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The 1933 Saint-Gaudens went for above the forecasted range -- and smashed the old record.  The 2 stamps went for below the estimates.  

Another confirmation that coins and numismatics have legs and stamps are really hurting, IMO.

You mean the block of four Inverted Jennies + the British Guiana, right?

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1 minute ago, Quintus Arrius said:

You mean the block of four Inverted Jennies + the British Guiana, right?

Bingo, all three were owned by one person.

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10 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The 1933 Saint is graded MS-65 CAC.(thumbsu

There is a hint of hypocrisy here.  You've got a lady in urgent need of plastic surgery on her leg and apparently her unique status makes her immune to criticism. And that bean only brought irrefutable disrepute and mockery to all other Hall of Fame recipients. About how much PMD must a coin sustain before the 🔺️ membership collectively echoes the sentiment of one commentator who elsewhere advised one collector recently to throw his coin into the gutter? I wouldn't accept this coin if you paid ME!!!  (@GoldFinger:  I assume you got the calendar.  I managed to find something else I intended to send along with it.  A consolation prize...)

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26 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Bingo, all three were owned by one person.

Well, I prefer to refer to them as a block of four and one additional stamp for a total of five stamps.

 

30 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

You mean the block of four Inverted Jennies + the British Guiana, right?

Not to rub it in but the World of Numismatics does not recognize fallow periods.  The auctions, in numispeak, were a "resounding success."

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On 6/8/2021 at 9:40 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Does anyone know the last day the coin resided at The World Trade Center? ...I was born in late August, two weeks before September 11 (August 29) so I'm sort of curious if it was moved on my birthday.

I'm not sure an EXACT date was ever given, Bob.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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10 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm not sure an EXACT date was ever given, Bob.

I can just hear the WTC conspiracy theorists now: "Well, if they didn't know the buildings were going to be attacked in advance, why was it moved? 

(Note: all the tons of gold and silver stored in a vault of the Bank of Nova Scotia, elsewhere on the WTC grounds, were recovered successfully with the help of an army of police and fire personnel months later after the removal of rubble made extrication possible. Not a single bar or coin was missing or damaged.)

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2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I can just hear the WTC conspiracy theorists now: "Well, if they didn't know the buildings were going to be attacked in advance, why was it moved? 

(Note: all the tons of gold and silver stored in a vault of the Bank of Nova Scotia, elsewhere on the WTC grounds, were recovered successfully with the help of an army of police and fire personnel months later after the removal of rubble made extrication possible. Not a single bar or coin was missing or damaged.)

They must’ve been resting on a My Pillow. :roflmao:

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21 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

There is a hint of hypocrisy here.  You've got a lady in urgent need of plastic surgery on her leg and apparently her unique status makes her immune to criticism. And that bean only brought irrefutable disrepute and mockery to all other Hall of Fame recipients. 

So true. And you said it previously. 

Very interesting reading responses here. I am no expert, but when I went and enlarged Liberty’s left leg, I was shocked . If that were my coin, it would come back in a pink holder. 

 

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On 6/10/2021 at 7:42 PM, Dave1384 said:

So true. And you said it previously. Very interesting reading responses here. I am no expert, but when I went and enlarged Liberty’s left leg, I was shocked . If that were my coin, it would come back in a pink holder. 

It would be very instructive if someone from PCGS were to let us know WHY/HOW the coin graded MS-65. (thumbsu

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3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

It would be very instructive if someone from PCGS were to let us know WHY/HOW the coin graded MS-65. (thumbsu

I do not mean to be facetious, ill-mannered, or impertinent, but why do you ask?  Is it because you feel the jury verdict rendered was too lenient (too high) or too harsh (too low)?  But for the rpg to Lady Liberty's leg -- or crude, amateurish, bull-in-china-shop attempt to test the coin's authenticity, how would/could you assign any grade at all knowing full well there are countless Mint State coins which bear little or far more minimal damage than this one?  Sometimes a coin, one reader inferred, stops being a coin or collectible and becomes an investment vehicle.  If this coin sported a deep, clearly defined chopmark, would it diminish its unique status in the annals of numismatic history?  MS-65 sounds like a compromise that can be justified without jeopardizing a TPGS' credibility and commodity's marketability.

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14 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not mean to be facetious, ill-mannered, or impertinent, but why do you ask?  Is it because you feel the jury verdict rendered was too lenient (too high) or too harsh (too low)?  

QA, the consensus is that the grade should be closer to MS-63.  I would want to hear from PCGS if they "graded on a curve" because it's the sole 1933 Saint.

I guess the question is:  the gash is a big negative, if the rest of the coin is "clean" with good luster, then you can maybe say it makes up for it on other aesthetics.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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13 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, the consensus is that the grade should be closer to MS-63.  I would want to hear from PCGS if they "graded on a curve" because it's the sole 1933 Saint.

I guess the question is:  the gash is a big negative, if the rest of the coin is "clean" with good luster, then you can maybe say it makes up for it on other aesthetics.

The "consensus"?  And who might they be?  I sense "market" vs "technical" has reared its ugly head again.  If that's the case, the new owner won't dare contemplate a cross-grade. I have a sneaky suspicion that someone at Conservation would be willing to give this coin a shot.  If a surgeon can work with living tissue, surely stone-cold gold ought to be a cinch. And with a lifetime of experience with alchemy and magic potions behind him, full restoration of the coin's original mint luster by VKurtB is now possible. This is a win for all parties involved.  :bigsmile:

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2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, the consensus is that the grade should be closer to MS-63.  I would want to hear from PCGS if they "graded on a curve" because it's the sole 1933 Saint.

I guess the question is:  the gash is a big negative, if the rest of the coin is "clean" with good luster, then you can maybe say it makes up for it on other aesthetics.

I haven’t seen any such consensus. And while it’s the only example that can be legally owned, please don’t say it’s the “sole 1933 Saint”. Others exist and were graded by NGC, years ago. 

If the coin received favorable grading treatment, do you really think a grading company would confirm that?

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MS64 would be a gift & it looks cleaned. So far as CAC goes...:roflmao:

Also...Strangely, I distinctly remember the Farouk coin having a bit of nose rub & less knee damage. Very strange.

Mandela effect or ???

Anyway...It's still the grail of coins.

Edited by Cat Bath
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5 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

MS64 would be a gift & it looks cleaned. So far as CAC goes...:roflmao:

Also...Strangely, I distinctly remember the Farouk coin having a bit of nose rub & less knee damage. Very strange. (I had a blown up picture on my bedroom wall for years)

Mandela effect or ???

Anyway...It's still the grail of coins.

It doesn’t look cleaned to me and I haven’t read any comments from anyone else that suggested cleaning.
 

Yes, you’ve repeatedly made it clear that you don’t think CAC knows Saints as well as you do. How’s that campaign going? 

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9 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Yes, you’ve repeatedly made it clear that you don’t think CAC knows Saints as well as you do. How’s that campaign going? 

The 33 is clearly not a 65 so I guess that's a glaring example of how I can grade better.

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5 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

Here's a small picture of the coin from 2002.

No knee damage I can see.

https://www.pcgs.com/news/1933-20-st-gaudens-sets-new-world-record-price-of

I don’t know how anyone could tell from that image. And I seriously doubt that the marks on the knee occurred after the coin was previously sold in 2002.

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This is the one I remember.

The knee damage looks worse on the TrueView but it is the same coin.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6TDFN/1933-saint-gaudens-double-eagle

BTW...The edge screams "special Handling" so my bet is she spent zero time in a bag.

1933-Saint-Gaudens-20-PCGS-MS65.jpg.80bc5a81d5afc53996d17c5674fb9d9e.jpg

457852781_ScreenShot2021-06-13at2_52_50PM.thumb.png.7097415b1195f71dff4313f1f3d077c3.png

Edited by Cat Bath
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4 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

This is the one I remember.

The knee damage looks worse on the TrueView but it is the same coin.

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6TDFN/1933-saint-gaudens-double-eagle

BTW...The edge screams "special Handling" so my bet is she spent zero time in a bag.

1933-Saint-Gaudens-20-PCGS-MS65.jpg.80bc5a81d5afc53996d17c5674fb9d9e.jpg

457852781_ScreenShot2021-06-13at2_52_50PM.thumb.png.7097415b1195f71dff4313f1f3d077c3.png

So….. who still doesn’t realize that lighting a coin is the most important thing about photographing one?

Edited by VKurtB
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8 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I haven’t seen any such consensus. And while it’s the only example that can be legally owned, please don’t say it’s the “sole 1933 Saint”. Others exist and were graded by NGC, years ago. 

I was just going by what other graders have estimated, Mark.  And you are right, NGC did grade the Langbord Ten a while back.  I think the twin MS-65's and the MS-66 are much nicer than this coin.  Have to compare it to the other 6 coins graded NS-64

8 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

If the coin received favorable grading treatment, do you really think a grading company would confirm that?

Probably not, but they could just talk about the grading process if there was lots of talk about the grade.  Would they ?  Probably not, as there is no upside.

But that's how loss of reputation can start:  you overgrade and don't even attempt to justify the grade.

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6 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

Here's a small picture of the coin from 2002.

No knee damage I can see.

https://www.pcgs.com/news/1933-20-st-gaudens-sets-new-world-record-price-of

I can't tell from that photo.  No bigger ones from 2002 ?  I have the catalog, I'll check.

EDIT:  I checked, the photos match.  They are a bit more subdued in the 2002 Sotheby's/Stacks's catalog and the picture(s) are only 4" -- not very large or hi-def quality.  It's almost like they went out of their way to camoflauge it.  HA pics would certainly have shown alot more.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On the PCGS photo above, the key light is obviously coming from approximately 12 o’clock, while on the StacksBowers photo, the key light is coming from between 8 and 9 o’clock. The more you know about photographic lighting, the more you realize how utterly critical these choices are. Both the pictures on the Beatles Album “Meet the Beatles” and the classic scary Vincent Price photos are essentially single light photos (with very little fill). The direction makes all the difference in the world.

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