1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Graded MS-65....no holder !! 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, gmarguli said:

As for it being graded and not slabbed, I've had several coins graded and returned raw. 

Maybe so, but were they acquired at auction after intense competitive bidding where the buyer's fee alone was expected to fetch a mil or two?

Now,  here's a business, PCGS, that boasts security chip-embedded slabs with leading-edge NFC technology and we are to believe this TPGS will not spring for a complimentary guest membership with grading credits for certification, encapsulation and a custom-made mahogany display presentation case?  Even a routine purchase at Tiffany's merits a trade-marked Robin's egg-blue pull-string pouch and box gift-wrapped and tied with a ribbon at the customer's request.  One should expect no less from a concern that bills itself the premier TPGS in the world.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, gmarguli said:

What makes everyone think that PCGS didn't pay for the privilege of grading this coin? People assume the owner/auction house submitted the coin, but isn't it possible that the TPG would approach them and pay for the privilege of grading this coin as it is being used as an advertisement for them. (And I don't care what was written in the article)...As for it being graded and not slabbed, I've had several coins graded and returned raw. They've ranged from too big/small, too fragile, we don't want this in one of our slabs (you know how long ago that was as the TPG will encapsulate any piece of garbage now), and some coins that missed the minimum grade, but came back with inserts. And on more than one occasion I've received coins back slabbed, but the TPG included a second insert with a different grade than what it was slabbed as. 

The article states that this is only the 2nd coin to be graded/certified but not put into a holder.  

I could be wrong, but the examples you cite seemed to be for special situations.  It appears that PCGS and NGC official policy is to slab anything that gets a grade.   Maybe it wasn't the case decades/years ago, but it is now.

Certainly, with a "common" coin like a Saint, there'd be no reason to not slab it -- hence the special exemption granted.

[zadok]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Agreed. While it’s possible that they paid to be able to grade the coin, publicizing the event certainly isn’t any sort of proof that they did so. For all we know, they charged a boat load to grade it.

if memory (questionable at times) serves me correctly, one or the other of the tpgs not so long ago offered to grade any 1894-S barber dime for free, just to document the existence of any of the unaccounted for ones......

[Alex in PA.]

Okay, but there's more than one way to "pay" for publicity.  But, who cares.  NGC got their share this week.  Everybody is happy.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Alex in PA.
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[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, zadok said:

if memory (questionable at times) serves me correctly, one or the other of the tpgs not so long ago offered to grade any 1894-S barber dime for free, just to document the existence of any of the unaccounted for ones......

[You've (pardon the expression) dropped a jewel here worthy of consideration.

Not to be flippant but should I submit the winning bid on the 1933 S-G coin, I shall promptly flip it and address a problem every French 20-franc gold rooster set registrant has apparently encountered in attempting to complete their compilation: locating every last coin which reeks of top-tier grading elibility and working out a deal with TPGS' European satellite outposts to encourage owners to submit them for a nominal (ridiculously small) fee, subsidized by me, an offer most unfamiliar with the process, will find difficult to refuse.

If I am outbid (only because of a last-minute flurry of action by strategically manipulative people like me) I will address the aforementioned problem directly and, after solving that, move right along to brain-storming my next project: exploring the feasibility of implementing a monthly lottery where for a single dollar, every youngster in the country, collector or not, can have an equal chance at winning a prized coin as offered by a consortium of dealers with surplus funds earmarked toward, say, the ANA, after administrative expenses and the rotating pot is replenished. That ought to drum up interest in a hobby that appears to have overlooked the generation that may very well make or break this hobby. All in favor, say Aye!]

Edited April 11, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Edit deleted.

[gmarguli]

On 4/10/2021 at 5:18 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Possible, but NGC graded the Langbord 10 and Sotheby's/Stacks-Bowers probably told Weitzman that if he wanted to maximize the return for his foundation, he needed to get it graded/certified. 

Remember, he is NOT a coin collector and didn't even have possesion of the coin -- he donated it to public viewing spaces.  He's not into the whole grading & labeling thing. 

The value difference of this coin with or without a PCGS grade is $0. Grade only matters when there are alternatives. 

Besides, when this coin came up for sale before, if I recall correctly, it was examined by several of the TPG graders who declared it MS65. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, gmarguli said:

The value difference of this coin with or without a PCGS grade is $0. Grade only matters when there are alternatives. 

You might be right, but again....for coin collectors, they want to see a grade.  Although.....

1 hour ago, gmarguli said:

Besides, when this coin came up for sale before, if I recall correctly, it was examined by several of the TPG graders who declared it MS65. 

The 65 grade is getting some pushback.  Liberty has some deep gouges that look like more than mere bag marks on her left leg.

Edited April 13, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

[Gentlemen of the Golden Thread:  I have taken the liberty of copying, word for word, two lines from the release regarding the coin under discussion to further clarify any misconceptions, including my own:

"Due to the unique circumstances and rarity of the 1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle, PCGS is taking the unusual step of, at the auctioneer's request, grading and certifying, but not holdering this rarity in PCGS' tamper-evident holder.

"The winning bidder of the coin may submit it to PCGS for holdering to provide state-of-the-art [Near Field Communication] security at no additional charge."]

The only question that remains, in my mind, is whether this will be one of the few times formal membership in PCGS for submission purposes is waived for the winning bidder in anticipation of the record-breaking gavel price realized -- not to mention the gargantuan buyer's premium.

[jtryka]

One thing that's always bothered me about this coin is that every photo I've seen of it, it's made to look like a matte proof.  It's my understanding that this was a business strike coin, which should not look like that photo, it should have luster and a wonderfully dynamic appearance. 

[GoldFinger1969]

36 minutes ago, jtryka said:

One thing that's always bothered me about this coin is that every photo I've seen of it, it's made to look like a matte proof.  It's my understanding that this was a business strike coin, which should not look like that photo, it should have luster and a wonderfully dynamic appearance.

Maybe I'll goto Sotheby's in early-June and take some high-res pics with my Galaxy S9.....

Edited April 14, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

29 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe I'll goto Sotheby's in early-June and take some high-res pics with my Galaxy S9.....

[In psychology, this is known as "flat affect." No emotion. I believe it is inherently unexciting however unique.]

[GoldFinger1969]

It is pathetic that we can't get any HA-like high-res quality pics of that 1933 Saint-Gaudens.  Hopefully we will in June.

[gmarguli]

22 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The 65 grade is getting some pushback.  Liberty has some deep gouges that look like more than mere bag marks on her left leg.

The coin looks like an average MS63, so by todays standards, MS65 seems about correct. 

[Henri Charriere]

15 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

It is pathetic that we can't get any HA-like high-res quality pics of that 1933 Saint-Gaudens.  Hopefully we will in June.

"Paging Buffalo Head.  Paging Buffalo Head.  Please report to the Threadmaster's office..."

[GoldFinger1969]

Good News !!!  The 1933 Saint stickered....it has a CAC bean (or can get it, if the buyer wants it).  

https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/cac-verifies-grade-of-stuart-weitzman-1933-double-eagle/

I was afraid the coin would be at a competitive disadvantage without it !!  

Edited May 1, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

The '33 S-G will most assuredly be encapsulated after auction as a practical necessity.   What inquiring minds want to know is what the U.K. intends to do with their newly-minted giant gold commemorative coin that took 400 hours to make and weighs more than three 100-ounce siver bars. Thoughts, anyone? Newsflash to VKurtB: your coin is ready for pick-up at the Royal Mint.  (No, this is not an April Fool's joke!)

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

What inquiring minds want to know is what the U.K. intends to do with their newly-minted giant gold commemorative coin that took 400 hours to make and weighs more than three 100-ounce siver bars. Thoughts, anyone? Newsflash to VKurtB: your coin is ready for pick-up at the Royal Mint.  (No, this is not an April Fool's joke!)

Anybody got a velvet-lined wheel barrow ?  

[uri-goldberg]

I just learned from reading NGC’s latest news article on the 1933 Double Eagle that there actually a MS66 NGC. It looks like a solid MS66 too maybe even CAC worthy! So the US Mint owns not only the genuine actual Half Unions but now also the Finest-Known ‘33 Saint Twenty! Woo-hoo!

[MarkFeld]

25 minutes ago, uri-goldberg said:I just learned from reading NGC’s latest news article on the 1933 Double Eagle that there actually a MS66 NGC. It looks like a solid MS66 too maybe even CAC worthy! So the US Mint owns not only the genuine actual Half Unions but now also the Finest-Known ‘33 Saint Twenty! Woo-hoo!

So you can conclude that it looks like a “solid 66”, based just upon an obverse image? And despite the apparent contact on most of Liberty’s left (facing right) leg and on her breast area?

[GoldFinger1969]

5 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

So you can conclude that it looks like a “solid 66”, based just upon an obverse image? And despite the apparent contact on most of Liberty’s left (facing right) leg and on her breast area?

What is it with the hits on Liberty's left-leg on the high-grade 1933 Saints ? 

They should call it a do-over...restrike them and get rid of the ones held in Fort Knox.  I'll take them off their hands. 

[GoldFinger1969]

36 minutes ago, uri-goldberg said:

I just learned from reading NGC’s latest news article on the 1933 Double Eagle that there actually a MS66 NGC. It looks like a solid MS66 too maybe even CAC worthy! So the US Mint owns not only the genuine actual Half Unions but now also the Finest-Known ‘33 Saint Twenty! Woo-hoo!

Do you have a link to the NGC article ?  Thanks....

The 10 Langbord 1933's rate as follows:  1 MS-66 (the one you posted above).......2 MS-65's.......6 MS-64's......and 1 Details coin with no grade that was apparently cleaned.

[Henri Charriere]

[I don't know about "solid" or not, but I am trying to picture the submitter with an array of coins i/f/o him and am I to believe he listed 61 other coins before proceeding to list arguably the most high-profile coin in the lot on his submission form? 

I believe I would have used a separate form to emphasize its unique distinction and value, and insured and shipped it entirely separately in its own protective container.

[gmarguli]

15 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

So you can conclude that it looks like a “solid 66”, based just upon an obverse image? And despite the apparent contact on most of Liberty’s left (facing right) leg and on her breast area?

Isn't that the way it is done these days? Grade the obverse and then as long as there is nothing awful on the reverse, the grade sticks. 

 

14 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Do you have a link to the NGC article ?  Thanks....

The 10 Langbord 1933's rate as follows:  1 MS-66 (the one you posted above).......2 MS-65's.......6 MS-64's......and 1 Details coin with no grade that was apparently cleaned.

Weren't they graded 10+ years ago? If so, the MS66 is now MS67+, the 2 MS65s are now MS66+ and MS66, the 6 MS64s are MS64+ to MS65+, and that cleaned one is MS63.

[Henri Charriere]

[We are treading dangerously close to that marketing vs technical grading phenomena no one is permitted to acknowledge publicly, and I for one, if there are no objections, am beating a hasty retreat.]

[GoldFinger1969]

Without hi-def pictures, it's tough to judge how NGC graded the Langbord 10.  However, it appears that they graded them pretty much on the mark -- the Weitzman/Farouk coin seems to be the one giving graders agita. 

I posted medium-res pics of the Langbord 10 in another thread so I'll repost them here, too.

Edited May 5, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[numisport]

On 4/30/2021 at 10:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Good News !!!  The 1933 Saint stickered....it has a CAC bean (or can get it, if the buyer wants it).  

https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/cac-verifies-grade-of-stuart-weitzman-1933-double-eagle/

I was afraid the coin would be at a competitive disadvantage without it !!  

If the image is the real coin then an explanation from CAC is needed. I've read that one reason CAC is so tough on Saints is the very problem this coin seems to have, actual leg disturbances that are post mint.

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's some medium-res pics of the 10 Langbord 1933 Saints:

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, numisport said:

If the image is the real coin then an explanation from CAC is needed. I've read that one reason CAC is so tough on Saints is the very problem this coin seems to have, actual leg disturbances that are post mint.

Yeah, that is suprising....but then again CAC stickers indicate "strong for the grade."  Maybe since there are NO OTHER available coins to grade or even to see (not sure Alabanese/CAC have seen the Langbord 10 sitting in Fort Knox)....then that would help the Weitzman coin sticker.

Those really are pretty big gashes on Liberty's left leg.  As these coins almost certainly were never in a bag, you wonder what happened.  Bagmarks they clearly are not.

Edited May 5, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[MarkFeld]

18 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yeah, that is suprising....but then again CAC stickers indicate "strong for the grade."  Maybe since there are NO OTHER available coins to grade or even to see (not sure Alabanese/CAC have seen the Langbord 10 sitting in Fort Knox)....then that would help the Weitzman coin sticker.

Those really are pretty big gashes on Liberty's left leg.  As these coins almost certainly were never in a bag, you wonder what happened.  Bagmarks they clearly are not.

I believe it's "solid for the grade" or better. If so, that's not quite the same as "strong for the grade". And I don't know why you think thy weren't ever in a bag.

[gmarguli]

15 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yeah, that is suprising....but then again CAC stickers indicate "strong for the grade."  Maybe since there are NO OTHER available coins to grade or even to see (not sure Alabanese/CAC have seen the Langbord 10 sitting in Fort Knox)....then that would help the Weitzman coin sticker.

Anything to do with a CAC sticker on this coin is a pure CAC marketing gimmick. Zero value added. Zero necessity.