1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Graded MS-65....no holder !! 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:54 PM, VKurtB said:

The basic malady that you are suffering from about 1933 is you have chosen to believe Roger’s fairy tale - a fairy tale written for the highest bidder, at the story teller’s own admission. 

I wasn't aware of Roger's position on the coins until long after the trial.  I was familiar with Bowers (who also testified) and Julian's (not sure if he testified) support for keeping the coins away from the feds. 

You keep stating that only Roger and the Langbord's backed their position.  Their position had the support of every top numismatic researcher as far as I can tell (all the famous ones, at least).....the ANA, the PNG, and other numismatic organizations....plus I would say close to or over 90% of the coin collecting hobbyists, judging by an informal survey of forum views.

That doesn't make it legal or even right, I agree, Kurt.  But the notion that only RWB, the Langbord's, and a few cranks like me supported returning the coins to the Langbord's -- or at least pursuing an honest settlement/split (where almost 75% of the value would go to the government if you include taxes) -- is totally ridiculous.

Edited February 14, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:26 PM, Alex in PA. said:

About a year after I gave up I met up with Senator Pat Toomey and told him about it.  Six months later I got a letter from the Veterans Administration in Philadelphia containing a copy of that 'missing, lost, stolen' medical record.  I should have listened to my Mom when she used to say:  "You can't fight City Hall."

But it seems you DID fight City Hall....and thanks to Sen. Toomey, you won ?!!  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:30 PM, VKurtB said:

The “proof” is the entirety of the circumstances. In February 1937 the world figuratively “exploded” (if a dozen or so can be an explosion) with available 1933’s. None were offered to ANYBODY until then, but then in February 1937, WHAM, they were trading like mad among a small set of insiders in primarily New York and the Philly area. That’s where the date comes from. It has faaaaaaaar more plausibility than Roger’s fairy tale. 

But there were reports of the coins circulating and being offered as early as mid-1936.

You had ads in numismatic periodicals and no attempt was made to inquire about or steal the coins.

By 1944 the coins had appreciated to $800 -  $2,000 (or so it was thought), and Leland Howard stepped in.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:30 PM, VKurtB said:

Look, I get it. Coin guys want these to be legit so bad they can taste it. It’s what they do, UNLESS they have spent a huge chunk of their career around the law. IN FACT, a huge chunk of coin guys like it even BETTER if law violations are involved. I get that too. 

What was the penalty according to federal law for possesion of a 1933 Double Eagle ?

Are you 100% positive that Philly Mint insiders could not get access to coins before or after semi-official deadlines ?

The government cared about the amount of gold, not years or mintmarks.  It's not the 1933's that upset them.....it's WHO GOT THEM that upset them.  Namely, gold bugs and anti-FDR hard money types.

Also, people who think it's wrong to pay people $20.67/oz. for their possesions and then say it is worth $35/oz.  

[Alex in PA.]

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

[RWB]

Why is VKurtB such a persistent liar? Because that allows him to justify his own ignorance. VKurtB had no role in the trial, pre-trial, depositions, published commentary, research articles or, indeed, anything at all to do with the case -- before, during or after. Such is his "expertise." Has he bothered to read the DE book chapter on 1933 coins?  - Unlikely. How about pre- and in-trial bench and chambers consultations? - Was VKurtB present? Was he told about the Court's decisions not in the record? - Nope again. Maybe VKurtB should stop lying and simply admit that he knows nothing.

The 1933 DE were legal coins. Some - 25 ($500 face) is as good a number as any - left the Philadelphia Mint. There are no records of theft. There are no records of exchange. There are no anomalous US Mint records. There was no contemporary USSS report or request for investigation. Things were so "ordinary" that the Philadelphia Mint lost most of the June 1933 Annual Settlement records - but what we have, is silent.

In my Court statement, I described multiple scenarios about how the coins might have left the Philadelphia Mint. All were possible. All were also unprovable, just as was theft, without contemporary testimony - which did not exist. That some 1933 DE appeared in 1937 is fact, but their source to collectors is no more evidence of "theft" than if Spencer S. Marsh sold 1932 DE to collectors in 1937, or Walter F. Allgeyer sold some 1931 DE, also in 1937 (the year they first appeared at auction).

There is another scenario not part of the trial, but it would have been no more supportable than any other.

Edited February 16, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

Has he bothered to read the DE book chapter on 1833 coins? 

1933.....

On 2/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

How about pre- and in-trial bench and chambers consultations? - Was VKurtB present? Was he told about the Court's decisions not in the record? - Nope again.

These were key.  Both Roy Langbord and the CoinWeek (?) reporter who covered the trial said these decisions, while not sexy or headline-grabbing, were going to determine how evidence was presented, what evidence, etc.

On 2/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

The 1933 DE were legal coins.

That's important.  There were no official release "dates" for coins, gold or otherwise, to be released.  It was generally made at the Mint Superintendent level and depending on the cashier's stash, you could get a "jump" on any unofficial release date.  I'm sure if a bigwig VIP from NYC went on a tour of the Philly Mint on a Wednesday and a coin was being released at the windows on Friday, that they'd accomodate that person before they took the train back to NY that day. 

Or something like that. 

On 2/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

In my Court statement, I described multiple scenarios about how the coins might have left the Philadelphia Mint. All were possible. All were also unprovable, just as was theft, without contemporary testimony - which did not exist.

That's where I think most people stand.  Both sides are unprovable.  So reach a compromise, which the U.S. Government accepted with the Farouk Coin (but only after the Export/Import Letter was found; before that they wanted civil AND criminal sanctions).  I saw this same government arrogance in the early-1990's with the FIRREA S&L cases, where the government worked out a deal with banks and then tried to renege on the deals.

On 2/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

There is another scenario not part of the trial, but it would have been no more supportable than any other.

I'm all ears......

[VKurtB]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:49 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1933.....

These were key.  Both Roy Langbord and the CoinWeek (?) reporter who covered the trial said these decisions, while not sexy or headline-grabbing, were going to determine how evidence was presented, what evidence, etc.

That's important.  There were no official release "dates" for coins, gold or otherwise, to be released.  It was generally made at the Mint Superintendent level and depending on the cashier's stash, you could get a "jump" on any unofficial release date.  I'm sure if a bigwig VIP from NYC went on a tour of the Philly Mint on a Wednesday and a coin was being released at the windows on Friday, that they'd accomodate that person before they took the train back to NY that day. 

Or something like that. 

That's where I think most people stand.  Both sides are unprovable.  So reach a compromise, which the U.S. Government accepted with the Farouk Coin (but only after the Export/Import Letter was found; before that they wanted civil AND criminal sanctions).  I saw this same government arrogance in the early-1990's with the FIRREA S&L cases, where the government worked out a deal with banks and then tried to renege on the deals.

I'm all ears......

No you’re not. You’ve made up your mind. And yes Roger, I have done ex post facto research on the case. I have the entire testimony transcript and have read each an every word. I have a PACER account with the Court. I also have both the three judge panel decision (the Midge Rendell one) and the en banc decision.  No, I don’t have access to the off-the-record conversations, nor do I care. The ONLY part that matters is the on-the-record part. Why? Because off-the-record is prejudicial (as is the PAID testimony of a witness for the losers, but what can you do?). But what ROGER OPENLY ADMITS is enough for his side to lose. Nothing can be proven. Unless it can be PROVEN that the coins (Roger estimates 25, I am saying 24.) left legally in early 1933, the government wins. Remember, many people (museums primarily)  asked for 1933’s and all were summarily turned down. That alone makes 1933’s different from ALL OTHER DATES. They were at all times and circumstances unavailable. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/14/2022 at 12:14 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What was the penalty according to federal law for possesion of a 1933 Double Eagle ?

Are you 100% positive that Philly Mint insiders could not get access to coins before or after semi-official deadlines ?

The government cared about the amount of gold, not years or mintmarks.  It's not the 1933's that upset them.....it's WHO GOT THEM that upset them.  Namely, gold bugs and anti-FDR hard money types.

Also, people who think it's wrong to pay people $20.67/oz. for their possesions and then say it is worth $35/oz.  

Then explain the lack of availability to museums. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:40 PM, RWB said:

.....no more evidence of "theft" than if Spencer S. Marsh sold 1932 DE to collectors in 1937, or Walter F. Allgeyer sold some 1931 DE, also in 1937 (the year they first appeared at auction).

Do we have confirmation/proof that the first auction of a 1931 Saint was in 1937 ?

[RWB]

Auction catalog comment.

"David Stone from Heritage Auctions surveyed auctions from 1935 to 1944. He found that a 1931 double eagle appeared twelve times, and in eleven sales both 1931 and 1932 coins were offered. The first auction appearance of a 1931 double eagle occurred in lot 1393 of the Needham, Herrick and Other Collections (Thomas Elder, 9/1937)."

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:13 PM, VKurtB said:

Unless it can be PROVEN that the coins (Roger estimates 25, I am saying 24.) left legally in early 1933, the government wins. 

Agreed...and it shouldn't be the case, IMO.   Get another judge who sets different rules (or if the Langbord's hadn't turned in all 10 coins) and things might be different.

On 2/22/2022 at 8:13 PM, VKurtB said:

Remember, many people (museums primarily)  asked for 1933’s and all were summarily turned down. That alone makes 1933’s different from ALL OTHER DATES. They were at all times and circumstances unavailable. 

I've heard that but not seen hard evidence.  Got proof ?

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Agreed...and it shouldn't be the case, IMO.   Get another judge who sets different rules (or if the Langbord's hadn't turned in all 10 coins) and things might be different.

I've heard that but not seen hard evidence.  Got proof ?

The testimony. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:15 PM, VKurtB said:

Then explain the lack of availability to museums. 

I don't know what Museum buying patterns were pre-1933 and if they changed because they expected that 1933's might be the last one.  CT State Museum bought Saint DEs but I am unaware of others that were regular buyers.

Maybe you or Roger know if museums were active buyers, I don't recall seeing too many on the list of direct purchasers after the 1929 Crash.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:25 PM, RWB said:

Auction catalog comment.

"David Stone from Heritage Auctions surveyed auctions from 1935 to 1944. He found that a 1931 double eagle appeared twelve times, and in eleven sales both 1931 and 1932 coins were offered. The first auction appearance of a 1931 double eagle occurred in lot 1393 of the Needham, Herrick and Other Collections (Thomas Elder, 9/1937)."

Yup, I remember that from your book now that you jogged my memory.  

Edited February 23, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:28 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't know what Museum buying patterns were pre-1933 and if they changed because they expected that 1933's might be the last one.  CT State Museum bought Saint DEs but I am unaware of others that were regular buyers.

Maybe you or Roger know if museums were active buyers, I don't recall seeing too many on the list of direct purchasers after the 1929 Crash.

There have been multiple articles written listing refusals to museums. I bet even Roger agrees. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:29 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yup, I remember that from your book now that you jogged my memory.  

Wait. 1931 is relevant how? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:30 PM, VKurtB said:

There have been multiple articles written listing refusals to museums. I bet even Roger agrees. 

I've SEEN references to them, yes.  But I'd like to know WHEN they asked, WHO they asked, and if they were regular buyers.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:31 PM, VKurtB said:

Wait. 1931 is relevant how? 

Another coin that didn't appear at auction until 1937. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Another coin that didn't appear at auction until 1937. 

Ah. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:31 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I've SEEN references to them, yes.  But I'd like to know WHEN they asked, WHO they asked, and if they were regular buyers.

I fear your desire to believe that the 1933’s were basically just another year doesn’t square with the history. It may be THE critical question at the crux of the matter. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:32 PM, VKurtB said:

Ah. 

So when did a non-variety non-error Sac first appear? Has it still? 22 years in. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:35 PM, VKurtB said:

I fear your desire to believe that the 1933’s were basically just another year doesn’t square with the history. It may be THE critical question at the crux of the matter. 

They kept striking tens of thousands a week for a few months thinking that EVENTUALLY they'd probably be released.  

The Bank Holiday closed banks -- they reopened.  Most people probably thought that something rationale would happen to gold and you'd use most or all of the struck 1933's.

I mean, they were striking the coins until May.....why do that if you knew they'd be melted down ?

[RWB]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:31 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I've SEEN references to them, yes.  But I'd like to know WHEN they asked, WHO they asked, and if they were regular buyers.

I found no references to any request for coins by museums other than the Smithsonian during the 1930s. I did not look earlier - it was simply not relevant since the coins were routinely offered by the Treasurer of the US and NOT by the US Mint. Data for SI's 1932 request exist are are essentially identical to that made in 1933. SI's acquisition records would show if previous requests were made.

[This whole nonsense is a waste of time. The US Mints had been removed from responsibility for selling individual coins to collectors and others in the early 1920s. Read the dam...ed books first - then ask meaningful questions.]

[RWB]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

They kept striking tens of thousands a week for a few months thinking that EVENTUALLY they'd probably be released.  

The Bank Holiday closed banks -- they reopened.  Most people probably thought that something rationale would happen to gold and you'd use most or all of the struck 1933's.

"Most people" knew nothing of the kind and did not care. Read the essays at the beginning of each section --- they were prepared to answer this kind of modern mis-assumption. History is contextual.

Coins of several denominations were struck based on instructions received before FDR took office. No one said "STOP." The Mint Bureau was not even included in initial EOs or planning -- again READ THE DAM...D BOOK.

Edited February 23, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:43 PM, RWB said:

"Most people" knew nothing of the kind and did not care. Read the essays at the beginning of each section --- they were prepared to answer this kind of modern mis-assumption. History is contextual.

I meant most collectors.  Most Americans were not concerned with gold coins in 1933 at the depths of The Depression.

Probably finding a job, buying food, stuff like that.

Edited February 23, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

There were a handful of gold collectors in the 1930s. The only info they had were previous year's coinage figures -- the Executive administrations prior to FDR provided no other information except the coins offered through the Treasurer of the US to collectors. What we know today was all internal Treasury and Mint material - never made public.