1604 WEST FRIESLAND LION DAALDER WITH LOW WEIGHT 0

[Frank Judge]

The spec for weight a Daalder is 27.68g but my coin weighs only 25.82g. Is it still possible that this coin is not counterfeit?  It is 40.7- 41.4mm diameter and 2.2- 2.4mm thick.  It shows diamagnetism to a rare earth magnet and passes the "ping test" of a coin tester app. The coin has plain edges with some flat spots AND no evidence of a seam. This first picture is the suspect coin.

I did find the following example on the Numista site with stated weight 26.70g.

 

Is my coin genuine even although it has such a low weight? 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Frank Judge

[Fenntucky Mike]

Try posting this in the US/World section of the Forum, you'll get more responses.

[Conder101]

Being almost 2 grams light does not bode well.  Gold and silver coins are usually held to fairly tight tolerances.  The second coin which is more heavily worn is almost a gram heavier.

[dollarfan]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:33 AM, Frank Judge said:

The spec for weight a Daalder is 27.68g but my coin weighs only 25.82g. Is it still possible that this coin is not counterfeit?  It is 40.7- 41.4mm diameter and 2.2- 2.4mm thick.  It shows diamagnetism to a rare earth magnet and passes the "ping test" of a coin tester app. The coin has plain edges with some flat spots AND no evidence of a seam. This first picture is the suspect coin.

I did find the following example on the Numista site with stated weight 26.70g.

 

Is my coin genuine even although it has such a low weight? 

i am unfamiliar with this type of coin.  If the two sets of images are of the same coin, with the lower being a confirmed genuine specimen  then i would strongly be in the camp of perhaps not genuine.  the creature (dragon/lion) looking animal on the back is not similar at all.  from the leg spacing to the claws (hands?) to the positioning of the arm coming into the chest with just as many differences on the obverse.  the legs are like four or five times the spacing between the two photos.

[Frank Judge]

I found this today - it wont let me copy the pictures though!!

Lion Dollar, West Friesland – Works – The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation (history.org)

Lion Dollar, West Friesland

DATE1604-1605

ORIGIN Europe, Netherlands, West Friesland

MEDIUM Silver

DIMENSIONS Diameter: 40 mm Weight: 25.3 grams

CREDIT LINE Gift of the Lasser family

OBJECT NUMBER1996-872,46

 

Obverse legend: "MO.ORD. WEST. FR. VALOR. HOL "
Reverse legend: "DEVS. FORTITVDO. ET. SPES. NOSTRA"
 

Minted from 1575 to 1731, Lion Dollars were produced by all of the Dutch provinces and the three Imperial cities, Deventer, Campen and Zwolle. Huge quantities were struck and although their weight was consistent and their silver quality was high, they were not like modern issues where virtually each and every piece is an exact duplicate of its predecessor and successor. Handmade dies were created with individual punches for letters, emblems and flourishes, etc, and a limited lifespan insured the creation of innumerable dies, resulting in countless variants of Lion Dollars.

They were common throughout the Mediterranean and eastward along the Silk Road to Persia. Fleets carried them not only to the Spice Islands and Philippines, but also to Latin America and North America, including the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam (later New York). Everywhere Dutch sailors and merchants traded, Lion Dollars, also popularly known as "Dog Dollars" were readily accepted as payment not only for food and supplies but also for exotic silks and spices.

This coin was countermarked with the shield of Alof de Wignacourt of Malta.
 

[Frank Judge]

The obverse (the night) of the 2 examples above and the further examples I found below are fairly similar.  When you look at the lions on the reverse it is clear that the orientation of the lion compare to the text is not always the same. I think the lions all show some differences in angle of arms and legs. It seams for this year it is hard to find identical dies. It is noted that while the angle of the lions leg (at 7 o'clock) on the suspect above is different from other examples, it has the same general form and shows similar ware especially the 3 holes.  

 

[Frank Judge]

[Conder101]

Remember this would be in the era before hubbing so every die is going to be different which each of them being created with a combination of some punching (some by hand and possibly the main devices with a screw press) and some hand engraving

I've tried posting the image from the Colonial Williamsburg site that Frank Judge was trying to post

Edited April 14, 2021 by Conder101

[Frank Judge]

I had some good news regarding the coin!!!!  See below but the photo cut and paste?? Thank you to all that responded with opinions and info.

 

Re: 1604 WEST FRIESLAND LION DAALDER



You replied on Mon 12/04/2021 12:30

NN

Noble Numismatics <Info@noble.com.au>

Mon 12/04/2021 08:12

To: You

 

Dear Frank,

 

 This coin is genuine.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jim Noble

 

Noble Numismatics Pty Ltd

Ground Floor, 169 Macquarie Street, Sydney

NSW 2000 (Australia)

Telephone: +61 (2) 9223 4578 | Fax: +61 (2) 9233 6009

www.noble.com.au
Twitter | Instagram

 

 

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 at 02:41, Frank Judge <frank_judge77@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

Dear Noble,

The coin weighs 25.82g.  Can you please tell me if you believe that the coin is genuine and not a forgery?  Do you have any other photos of similar coins of this issue or any further information regarding it?

 

Thank you,

 

Frank Judge 

[Frank Judge]

I have researched the coin and here is a YouTube link to a very short film with text information commentary and music which I put together to accompany a decent photo.  I hope it contains some information on this Daalder which might be of interest.