CAC Education requested 2 2

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I only really track Saints, Liberty DEs, and Morgan SDs closely.  Not familiar with Liberty Seated coins (quarters or halfs) at all

What are the prices for the Liberty Seated Series where someone will pay more for a 58 than a 60/61 ?

There are no such things as "halfs."  There are, however, "halves." (Lemme get out of here before z catches up!)   

Edited August 21, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Glaring typo

[zadok]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I only really track Saints, Liberty DEs, and Morgan SDs closely.  Not familiar with Liberty Seated coins (quarters or halfs) at all

What are the prices for the Liberty Seated Series where someone will pay more for a 58 than a 60/61 ?

...for the most part saints r NCLT far more ms than circs..."prices"?...if u mean differentials?, a choice au58 in virtually all liberty seated series will sell for a 30% premium over a ms60 same date unless its a key date where condition census enters into the formula...the same is true in many of the morgans...it is difficult to compare morgans with any of the true collectible series...if u have the money u can assemble a complete morgan dollar set in one day in grades xf-ms63, just takes time to make all the phone calls, whereas in the more challenging series many of the semi n key dates r not always available in the desired grades....

[Bignubnumismatics]

On 3/30/2021 at 7:59 AM, Pantel Numis said:

I'm educating myself about CAC.

For those that'll take the time to read this and constructively respond:

I'm new to the board but a very seasoned collector. I and my associates fully support TPG. Over the last three decades my associates and I have spent just over $300K on TPG. Although there have been times we're not happy about a grading result (just as every collector has experienced) none of us regret a cent we spent with them. Personally just the fabulous quality holders and serial number tracking they provide along with their fantastic databases are worthy of the fees they charge. Their grade opinion (sans gradeflation) is a bonus and, for the most part, pretty darn good (within any given grading standard period in time)!

Furthermore I expect most will cry "CAC bashing" here but sadly that's the cry of the insecure. Those afraid something they think they possess or profit from will be threatened. In fact, although I hope not, I expect to get banned for calling a spade a spade. Never the less I'm posing intelligent, fact-based, reasonable questions and hoping that someone more aware and educated than I apparently am can enlighten me as to what it is I'm missing. PM always welcome!

I see a lot of support for CAC and that most charge and many will pay more for a holder with a sticker on it. Of course dealers and TPG support CAC for plainly obviou$ reasons. I'm hoping to gain intelligent reasoning from fellow collectors, not biased dealers; from the passengers in the bus, not the driver. I'm a huge proponent of self-education and knowledge over purchasing my opinion or external validation for the sake of acceptance so I'm attempting to find the tangible value in CAC as, near as I can tell, it's absolutely nothing more than a purchased, subjective and (by nature of subjectivity) inconsistent opinion. I'm trying to determine if it's manufactured value is based in anything other than exploiting fragile ego's and/or financial greed. There are some things I read that, considering the support of the service by supposed "collectors", confuse me greatly and I'm "hoping" for some intelligent, reasonable explanation from fellow collectors about the following points:

The following are copied directly from CAC's site:

 

 

 

Here’s where I’m stumped. According to CAC a CAC sticker means the coin is (in one person's opinion, in one moment in time) at the A or B level (of A, B or C) of the spectrum of a given grade range (let's remember TPG grade is constantly changing). So, setting aside the RIDICULOUS thought that anyone (emphasis on “one”) could consistently and reliably slice the difference between 65+ and 66 into three sectors (this means being able to accurately and consistently discern a .166 or 1/6th of a grade point difference) on tens of thousands of coins over long periods of time:

1) What is the “standard for today’s selective buyer”? How is it determined? Is there an ANA “today’s selective buyer” standard? Is today's selective buyer different than yesterdays? What about tomorrows? Isn't this nothing more than a unilateral, self-determined and constantly variable, non-committal subjective standard?

2) “It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade. CAC will eventually reject tens of thousands of accurately graded coins.” Then there is “Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered”. These two statements equal “we reserve the right to function in a consistently inconsistent standard”.

3) What is their point? How can any consumer in their right mind consider this a positive thing? This is old school and there's a word to describe it! What better way in the world to promote your "service only, manufacture/create nothing" business than to purchase your own service? Furthermore in examples like this (where the proprietor is servicing a tangible asset they're paid to service) they're not "purchasing", they're "investing" while driving up demand for their service. They "invested" $600M in an asset they were paid to service....and they still have their $600M asset! Furthermore if they invest "X"% over retail in the items they invested in they've driven the market up "X"% or a good fraction thereof while making their service "appear" to be the reason for the price increase. Now, get dealer networks to play along and wholla...it's a well engineered, no risk, no capitol, no skin in the game massive money machine that the end user funds and ultimately gets bit by. Now, I'm not saying that's what CAC did or is doing. But then there's the 'ol saying "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...well, you know.

How about these:

So, they catalog all the coins that come across the counter. Yet they don't reveal the coins that didn't qualify (in a given moment, on a given day, in the subjective opinion of one person, to be in the top 2/3 of half a grade point) because they're protecting collectors? Really? Is there any thought by other collectors that maybe, just maybe, this is a way to get the same coin coming back over and over every time it changes hands? Another way to make a finite market infinite. Furthermore, beyond the simple arrogance of doing so, isn't publishing "CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC" a blatantly passive aggressive method of telling collectors a coin holder without a sticker on it (let's remember....it could still get a sticker upon the second or third or tenth or hundredth payment since this is all based on the subjective opinion of a human that has no risk) is inferior? And yes, for those looking to justify this with "well _______ does this too" (which is childish anyway) I realize TPG does the same thing. However let's remember that TPG supplies an enormous amount of other tangible assets for the fees they charge! So, even if you don't get the grade you want you get something tangible and valuable for your expenditure.

Lastly, they publish What is that? Is that not the same as "we provide no guarantees", and the same as "we're backed by nothing other than our words"?

All this stated....I get that people can simply "want" and, really, there's no better thing to spend discretionary income on than "want". But as I educate myself about this facet of numismatics and genuine "collecting" I struggle with understanding, or, maybe, just facing ad accepting what the "want" is.

I see posts all the time about "do you think this (already certified and reaping the tangible benefits of TPG) coin will bean" and every single time I ask myself "why do you care". And....I mean that as a genuine question as a fellow passion based caring collector. I ponder; "if it does will you like the coin more"? "If it doesn't will you like the coin less"? And, if the answer to either one of these is yes then it's rooted in one or all of only three toxic things, a disinterest in or too lazy to educate one's self, a very fragile ego or selfish financial greed. None of which are good for the long term well-being of collectors or our hobby. If you answered no to both then you wouldn't care less about a sticker, especially not one that represents one person's opinion (in a single given moment on a single given day) about .166 or 1/6th of a grade point....let alone purchase it or try charge fellow collectors for it.

There's even a prominent dealer that has the nerve to publish (essentially) that any collector or dealer that says they don't submit coins to CAC should be avoided! From what tangible information I can gather any person that doesn't send coins to CAC is likely educated, confident, doesn't need external validation and values integrity far above the acquisition of paper dollars. Therefore they would only be avoided by people afraid of intelligent, confident, hard to BS (and therefore much harder to acquire paper dollars from through installation of fear) integrity-based individuals. Oddly (not really) this same dealer touts CAC as being great because they catch "doctored" coins. No, they don't. They only (just as TPG services do) sometimes catch poorly/unprofessionally doctored coins. This has been proven by submitting certified doctored , oops..."conserved" coins and receiving a sticker every time.

I gotta be missing something somewhere! Or am I?

 

 First of all, John Albanese himself on numerous occasions (interviews and whatnot) that he doesn’t think ANYONE can properly discern whether a coin is decimal point in the way of grades. A,B, C coins are more bell curved than anything, not split evenly .333 ways. Most will be B coins with 10% being cream of the crop (which would probably bump a grade if you tried enough times) and 10% crappy coins that should never be cracked. 
 

on 65+ , or + coins in general. Albanese completely disregards them. A 64+ is treated as a 64, so we’re still talking about the same process.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/21/2022 at 9:36 AM, Bignubnumismatics said:

John Albanese himself on numerous occasions (interviews and whatnot) that he doesn’t think ANYONE can properly discern whether a coin is decimal point in the way of grades. A,B, C coins are more bell curved than anything, not split evenly .333 ways. Most will be B coins with 10% being cream of the crop (which would probably bump a grade if you tried enough times) and 10% crappy coins that should never be cracked.  on 65+ , or + coins in general. Albanese completely disregards them. A 64+ is treated as a 64, so we’re still talking about the same process.

The distribution depends alot on the type of coin and WHEN it was graded.

Using Saints, for example, you would probably have a distribution closer to 10-60-30 or some other combination if it was the mid-to-late 1990's and it was a generic common.

[World Colonial]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What are the prices for the Liberty Seated Series where someone will pay more for a 58 than a 60/61 ?

I have attempted to quantify it, but I doubt there are enough transactions to do it.  The coins in these grades don't sell often enough in close proximity for the same (or similarly scarce) dates to make a direct comparison.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/21/2022 at 10:57 AM, World Colonial said:

I have attempted to quantify it, but I doubt there are enough transactions to do it.  The coins in these grades don't sell often enough in close proximity for the same (or similarly scarce) dates to make a direct comparison.

I think it might happen from time-to-time.   The larger point is that the fall-off from the low-60's to AU-58 is MUCH LESS than what would be expected given you are going from Mint State to Circulated.

Edited August 21, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/21/2022 at 10:57 AM, World Colonial said:

I have attempted to quantify it, but I doubt there are enough transactions to do it.  The coins in these grades don't sell often enough in close proximity for the same (or similarly scarce) dates to make a direct comparison.

Good answer!

[World Colonial]

On 8/21/2022 at 11:18 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Good answer!

Typo error, I actually haven't attempted to quantify it.  I also saw zadok's answer after I wrote my post and presume he knows better than I do on this one.

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 11:18 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think it might happen from time-to-time.   The larger point is that the fall-off from the low-60's to AU-58 is MUCH LESS than what would be expected given you are going from Mint State to Circulated.

...thats only correct if u consider AU-58 as a circulated coin....

[zadok]

...allow me to make an observation on the futility of trying to quantify this area of numismatics, its probably impossible to do so with any precise degree of accuracy so the best u can get is generalities or trends, trying to make it across the board applicable to all series of coins virtually impossible to do, just too many variables...trying to compare early american coppers to morgan dollars just doesnt mesh very well n if u bring into the mix a series where actual circulation wasnt the norm ur disparity increases even more so...to simplify it to a point that even QA cant compound ... a coin isnt a coin isnt a coin nor a rose, all coin series r unique unto themselves...but to continue my observation which has been trending for sometime, i just returned from the ANA (world of money), in three different instances in three different US series, bust quarters, $5 gold, liberty seated quarters i received virtually the same rationale on pricing from three different dealers...the questions were why or how did u arrive at the asking price which is 30% above all of the related price guides...the answers were i cant replace the coins for price guide prices...all of the coins were in AU grades, where i see the biggest swings in pricing...this is almost not a variable anymore, its virtually a norm but it has to be factored in as a variable when trying to answer questions as presented by goldfinger, its definitely going to enter into the price u r going to pay for these coins...im sure it is also true to some extent in the coins that worldcolonial collects but maybe not to the extent as seen in the US coin market, im not sure just how much AU grading/pricing is prevalent in his series...perhaps he will expound on this?...

[Henri Charriere]

@zadok:

 I don't know from quantum physics, or anything else. Re: "how or why"... do you really expect to get an honest answer from a coin dealer? To begin with, being that forward is a faux pas of some kind. It is impolite to ask! Nobody does that! Am I to presume I can waltz right in to Brigandi or Stack's and have the audacity to cross-examine them, then and there? It is bad form! When you do that i/f/o a dealer, you reveal something about yourself. You're signaling something: price matters. Like the old saying goes, if you have to ask the price--in this case made worse by an inquiry into justification, you will get a response you did not expect, hinting, Maybe this is not for you.

Great z, me and you are Kool and the Gang. Now level with me here, when's the last time you committed these egregious errors and observed a gentleman slap the side of his head and exclaim, "By George, you're right! This is all wrong! I tell you what, what do feel it ought to be? Don't worry about the extravagant rent I pay or my bottom line. Today is your lucky day! You set the price, and share with me your rationale. I believe I can accommodate you..." 😉   

[EagleRJO]

@Quintus ArriusI just realized you are not that far from me, small world.  But how many different places can you be located at? Kinda like a shell game?   I assume you will be going to the NYINC coin show in January since you could almost see it from your "location" (well, maybe not that close).

And what's up with the OP dropping a CAC grenade and then bailing? "Fake news" again? 

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:09 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@zadok:

 I don't know from quantum physics, or anything else. Re: "how or why"... do you really expect to get an honest answer from a coin dealer? To begin with, being that forward is a faux pas of some kind. It is impolite to ask! Nobody does that! Am I to presume I can waltz right in to Brigandi or Stack's and have the audacity to cross-examine them, then and there? It is bad form! When you do that i/f/o a dealer, you reveal something about yourself. You're signaling something: price matters. Like the old saying goes, if you have to ask the price--in this case made worse by an inquiry into justification, you will get a response you did not expect, hinting, Maybe this is not for you.

Great z, me and you are Kool and the Gang. Now level with me here, when's the last time you committed these egregious errors and observed a gentleman slap the side of his head and exclaim, "By George, you're right! This is all wrong! I tell you what, what do feel it ought to be? Don't worry about the extravagant rent I pay or my bottom line. Today is your lucky day! You set the price, and share with me your rationale. I believe I can accommodate you..." 😉   

...its fairly obvious that u have never ventured out into the real coin world n attended a real coin convention even when just down the street from u...but to answer ur question the last time was yesterday....as an aside i have never paid the full asking price of any coin at stack's or any other dealers, it much like buying a car or a bottle of scotch or any other commodity....

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:59 PM, EagleRJO said:

@Quintus ArriusI just realized you are not that far from me, small world.  But how many different places can you be located at? Kinda like a shell game?   I assume you will be going to the NYINC coin show in January since you could almost see it from your "location" (well, maybe not that close).

And what's up with the OP dropping a CAC grenade and then bailing? "Fake news" again? 

...u would be assuming wrong....

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:59 PM, EagleRJO said:

@Quintus ArriusI just realized you are not that far from me, small world.  But how many different places can you be located at? Kinda like a shell game?   I assume you will be going to the NYINC coin show in January since you could almost see it from your "location" (well, maybe not that close).

And what's up with the OP dropping a CAC grenade and then bailing? "Fake news" again? 

...u do realize that the OP was in march of 2021....

[EagleRJO]

On 8/21/2022 at 5:03 PM, zadok said:

...u do realize that the OP was in march of 2021....

Thats why he wasn't tagged. And just one post.

Btw, with the NGC [ + ] and [ * ] designations what's the point of the CAC stickers anymore (other than to overcharge people for the same coin )?

Edited August 21, 2022 by EagleRJO

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 5:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

Thats why he wasn't tagged. And just one post.

Btw, with the NGC [ + ] and [ * ] designations what's the point of the CAC stickers anymore (other than to overcharge people for the same coin )?

...if that is ur perception of cac then best advice i can give u is not to buy cac stickered coins....

[Henri Charriere]

@zadok:

Regardless of the gist of your thoughts, they are always welcome--but I am not deserving of your adulation!  

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:59 PM, zadok said:

...if that is ur perception of cac then best advice i can give u is not to buy cac stickered coins....

Biting commentary.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/21/2022 at 5:01 PM, zadok said:

...its fairly obvious that u have never ventured out into the real coin world n attended a real coin convention even when just down the street from u...but to answer ur question the last time was yesterday....as an aside i have never paid the full asking price of any coin at stack's or any other dealers, it much like buying a car or a bottle of scotch or any other commodity....

What can I say? I have never done that. I do not believe I have ever seen it done. I have never allowed myself the luxury of thinking of doing that! What enquiring minds want to know now is, How well have your haggling skills gone over at the U.S. Mint?     

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:15 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

What can I say? I have never done that. I do not believe I have ever seen it done. I have never allowed myself the luxury of thinking of doing that! What enquiring minds want to know now is, How well have your haggling skills gone over at the U.S. Mint?     

...the US mint hasnt made anything im interested in buying since 1891....

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@zadok:

Regardless of the gist of your thoughts, they are always welcome--but I am not deserving of your adulation!  

...none offered....

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/21/2022 at 4:59 PM, EagleRJO said:

@Quintus Arrius I assume you will be going to the NYINC coin show in January since you could almost see it from your "location" (well, maybe not that close).

Negative. I have suffered a grievous fall. If I hadn't gone to the E.R. it is highly unlikely I would have found out I am Covid-19+ (and my wife as well). Nearly 40 years ago, a doctor observed, "your life will never be the same." I've had one hip-replacement, and then another. The catastrophic fall suffered last week effectively means I am no longer fully ambulatory. I have not been out in a week. Coin show? I do not believe I can simply go downstairs and pick up the mail. And I cannot address this responsibly until I recover. That's the short and long of it.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:24 PM, zadok said:

...none offered....

I tell ya you're one tough cookie and a really good sport!  

[zadok]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:27 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I tell ya you're one tough cookie and a really good sport!  

...actually im a fuzzy teddybear with a big gun...n i play till the death...i count Odysseus, Spartacus n John Wick among my minor heros....

[EagleRJO]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:59 PM, zadok said:

...if that is ur perception of cac then best advice i can give u is not to buy cac stickered coins....

No need for any advice, it's not happening. 

[EagleRJO]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:25 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Negative. I have suffered a grievous fall. If I hadn't gone to the E.R. it is highly unlikely I would have found out I am Covid-19+ (and my wife as well).

Yea, I guess 5 months just isn't enough time to get over covid, and there are those pesky NYC rules about handicap accessibility for public venues for people who need access assistance temporarily from a fall I keep forgetting about, gosh darn. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by EagleRJO

[World Colonial]

On 8/21/2022 at 3:02 PM, zadok said:

.im sure it is also true to some extent in the coins that worldcolonial collects but maybe not to the extent as seen in the US coin market, im not sure just how much AU grading/pricing is prevalent in his series...perhaps he will expound on this?...

I'd be glad to do so if anyone (including me) knew what these coins are actually worth.  There aren't enough transactions to get good estimates.  Best that can be done is to use other mints for the same denomination as a reference point but even then, there aren't always comparable.  

But I definitely agree that AU (even mid AU) can and should be worth more than lower MS in some instances, especially since the number on the label doesn't consistently reflect the relative coin quality.  I'd also rather own a slightly circulated well struck coin with the appearance of "originality" than a "strictly uncirculated" coin that was dipped or visibly cleaned at some point.

Here is an example of two AU-50, both graded by PCGS:

BOLIVIA. 4 Reales, 1767-PTS JR. Potosi Mint. Charles III. PCGS AU-50. | Stacks Bowers

BOLIVIA. 2 Reales, 1770-PTS JR. Potosi Mint. Charles III. PCGS AU-50 Gold Shield. | Stacks Bowers

The first coin to me is an XF.  The second coin I consider noticeably better than an AU-50.  

Edited August 22, 2022 by World Colonial

[Treeman]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:08 PM, World Colonial said:

No, what I am saying is that I don't consider AU-50 to be AU.  I consider an AU-50 to be an XF-50.

AU-50 isn't actually "almost uncirculated" because it isn't almost uncirculated.  It's more of a choice XF and maybe not even that under more recent grading.

Similar idea for AU-53, much or at least some of the time.

What difference does it make if you use "AU" or "XF"? It's still a 50....

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 8/22/2022 at 10:44 AM, Treeman said:

What difference does it make if you use "AU" or "XF"? It's still a 50....

What you are picking at is the basic premise of CAC.  All grades are not created equal, one AU50 may be overgraded and the next may be undergraded.  If you bought an XF coin in an AU holder, you would be overpaying for the coin (the inverse would give you a "deal").  CAC is helping the situation by telling you which coins he (John A) thinks is good for the grade.  This has helped collectors and dealers from having to crack/resubmit coins that appear to be undergraded.

(While not the topic at hand... EAC Grading (copper coins) is different yet.  They introduce "net grading".  Net grading is basically the commercial TPG grade with discounts to the grade for conditional issues with particular attention to the coin's focal areas.  It's definitely a deeper level of grading than the commercial TPGs.)

Edited August 22, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist