CAC Education requested 2 2

[Henri Charriere]

13 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I have a couple but I despise CAC. The stickers have been removed.

Sticky little buggers 

Somehow I get the feeling you would have tried to pry that Del Monte sticker off that double sawbuck that sold for fifty thousand at auction recently. 😂

[RWB]

Are the removed stickers properly called "has beans?"

[Henri Charriere]

What enquirings minds like mine who have a healthy skepticism of errors to begin with want to know is how difficult would it be to repeat this feat using a Chiquita or Del Monte brand sticker and what makes this unremarkable printing 'error" so valuable?

Sad to say but to me it diminishes the value of the banknote and suggests at some point quality control at the Fort Worth facility was not as stringent as it should have been.

[BradlyMarks]

On 4/3/2021 at 8:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

What enquirings minds like mine who have a healthy skepticism of errors to begin with want to know is how difficult would it be to repeat this feat using a Chiquita or Del Monte brand sticker and what makes this unremarkable printing 'error" so valuable?

Sad to say but to me it diminishes the value of the banknote and suggests at some point quality control at the Fort Worth facility was not as stringent as it should have been. I've seen this topic follow this link exposed by the comparisons and contrasts at the service with the essay samples. If you delve into it, everything becomes much clearer.

I totally agree with you. Many of people understand that.

Edited May 18, 2022 by BradlyMarks

[GoldFinger1969]

For one of the longest, most in-depth, detailed, intricate, quasi-informative posts from what appeared to be a serious coin collector (or dealer).....the OP sure disappeared in a hurry and never posted again. 

[Alex in PA.]

Edited May 17, 2022 by Alex in PA.

[VKurtB]

On 5/17/2022 at 1:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For one of the longest, most in-depth, detailed, intricate, quasi-informative posts from what appeared to be a serious coin collector (or dealer).....the OP sure disappeared in a hurry and never posted again. 

If only we could make such disappearances occur “on demand”. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting Comments from JA:  "I would guess that 10-20% of CAC'd XF 40 coins would also sticker as a 45.  In order for a CAC'd XF 40 coin to be awarded a gold sticker , it would have to have claims to AU-50... basically a “48” grade or better.  If I had it my way , there would only be one grade for VG, one for Fine , maybe 2 or 3 for VF and , one for XF. Simplifying and eliminating grades would result in better consistency for collectors as well as grading services."

Edited June 7, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 6/7/2022 at 1:42 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting Comments from JA:  "I would guess that 10-20% of CAC'd XF 40 coins would also sticker as a 45.  In order for a CAC'd XF 40 coin to be awarded a gold sticker , it would have to have claims to AU-50... basically a “48” grade or better.  If I had it my way , there would only be one grade for VG, one for Fine , maybe 2 or 3 for VF and , one for XF. Simplifying and eliminating grades would result in better consistency for collectors as well as grading services."

...when was that comment made?...in a publication or an interview?....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/7/2022 at 5:34 PM, zadok said:

...when was that comment made?...in a publication or an interview?....

CAC message forums. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Another interesting quote, one which validates my fears:  "Beware of the AU58+ CAC coins that sell for moon money. My concern is they are being chased up by the Everyman Registry sets which prize this grade point. Should an AU58+ be worth more than an MS63 coin?"

[Henri Charriere]

It defies common sense, but I suppose their sufficient enough number of proponents can cite an intelligible reason.

[World Colonial]

On 6/7/2022 at 1:42 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting Comments from JA:  "I would guess that 10-20% of CAC'd XF 40 coins would also sticker as a 45.  In order for a CAC'd XF 40 coin to be awarded a gold sticker , it would have to have claims to AU-50... basically a “48” grade or better.  If I had it my way , there would only be one grade for VG, one for Fine , maybe 2 or 3 for VF and , one for XF. Simplifying and eliminating grades would result in better consistency for collectors as well as grading services."

He didn't mention AU.  I consider AU-50 to be XF.  There is a noticeable gap with AU58 and sometimes AU-55 and it isn't really "almost uncirculated".

I also assume it wasn't a coincidence he didn't mention MS grades.  The price differences between circulated grades are narrower than between one point MS increments, not always proportionately but in amount.

If it were up to me, I'd go back to four MS grades as I first remember in the late 70's: 60, 63, 65, 67.  I'd also get rid of the Sheldon scale for series that I think would be better using the one used for NGC Ancients, strike, wear and surfaces.  In US coinage, that would be colonials and territorial gold.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:10 PM, World Colonial said:

He didn't mention AU.  I consider AU-50 to be XF.  There is a noticeable gap with AU58 and sometimes AU-55 and it isn't really "almost uncirculated". I also assume it wasn't a coincidence he didn't mention MS grades.  The price differences between circulated grades are narrower than between one point MS increments, not always proportionately but in amount.

You're saying you can jump more numerical increments in the EF and XF (and even AU grades) than in the MS ones, right ?

[zadok]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:48 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You're saying you can jump more numerical increments in the EF and XF (and even AU grades) than in the MS ones, right ?

...increments in the circ grades r larger than increments in the mint state grades, think bout that for a moment....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/16/2022 at 5:16 PM, zadok said:

...increments in the circ grades r larger than increments in the mint state grades, think bout that for a moment....

Makes sense, right ?

[World Colonial]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:48 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You're saying you can jump more numerical increments in the EF and XF (and even AU grades) than in the MS ones, right ?

No, what I am saying is that I don't consider AU-50 to be AU.  I consider an AU-50 to be an XF-50.

AU-50 isn't actually "almost uncirculated" because it isn't almost uncirculated.  It's more of a choice XF and maybe not even that under more recent grading.

Similar idea for AU-53, much or at least some of the time.

[Oldhoopster]

On 8/16/2022 at 5:16 PM, zadok said:

...increments in the circ grades r larger than increments in the mint state grades, think bout that for a moment....

The numbers were derived by Sheldon as a way to determine the value of early large cent varieties. An MS70 example was worth 70x a PO-01 (basal state), a G4 was 4x, F12 was 12x, etc. 

So in reality, the numbers mean nothing unless you were trying to estimate values of large cents in the early 1950s

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:14 PM, Oldhoopster said:

So in reality, the numbers mean nothing unless you were trying to estimate values of large cents in the early 1950s

Right, but for better or worse (!) we use them for valuing the entire spectrum of coins.

[zadok]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:14 PM, Oldhoopster said:

The numbers were derived by Sheldon as a way to determine the value of early large cent varieties. An MS70 example was worth 70x a PO-01 (basal state), a G4 was 4x, F12 was 12x, etc. 

So in reality, the numbers mean nothing unless you were trying to estimate values of large cents in the early 1950s

...fully aware of sheldon n the origin re large cents...but things evolved(?) n the system now encompasses all denominations, right or wrong is what it is, the numbers now r comparative to each other n used to determine relative grades n not values...goldfinger was trying to make a comparison of jumping grades tween circ coins n mint state coins...which doesnt correlate well since a yellow bean in circ grades could actually be 10 sheldon points while in mint state could be just 2 sheldon points...the only commonality would be the grading increments....

[Oldhoopster]

Agree that the numbers don't correlate to anything.

Comparing the numbers between grades isn't applicable.  MS65 to MS67 is 2 grades. VF20 to XF40 is also 2 grades, not 20.  Sheldon numbers mean nothing in modern day numismatics other than a method to order the grades from lowest to highest.  As @zadoksaid, we're stuck with a bunch of meaningless numbers have no bearing on anything.  They are the appendix of numismatics

 

[Henri Charriere]

@zadok:

As I have observed, you are generally a member of few words, but when an issue gets your goat, a fountain of wisdom gushes forth. Much to my surprise, Merriam-Webster backed your contention (on numismatic-related terms) stating that however the O.E.D. chooses to regard etymology, they are obligated to report [and print] current usage as borne by recent written accounts. It took me a while to accept that, and while there are word applications that clearly defy what I was taught as a child, this is no longer my generation. [Grass is grown; you don't "grow" your money in a bank.] It is for generations half the age of the leading vocal candidates to choose who they wish to represent them. [Frankly, I no longer give a d**n].  🤔 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:08 PM, World Colonial said:

No, what I am saying is that I don't consider AU-50 to be AU.  I consider an AU-50 to be an XF-50. AU-50 isn't actually "almost uncirculated" because it isn't almost uncirculated.  It's more of a choice XF and maybe not even that under more recent grading. Similar idea for AU-53, much or at least some of the time.

Fair points, but what about AU-55's and AU-58's, with the possibility of + and CAC add-ons ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:45 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Agree that the numbers don't correlate to anything.  Comparing the numbers between grades isn't applicable.  MS65 to MS67 is 2 grades. VF20 to XF40 is also 2 grades, not 20.  Sheldon numbers mean nothing in modern day numismatics other than a method to order the grades from lowest to highest.  As @zadoksaid, we're stuck with a bunch of meaningless numbers have no bearing on anything.  They are the appendix of numismatics

As we have discussed before, many people prefer a great-looking AU-58 over an "ugly" MS-60/61/62 coin (I can't even recall ever seeing a coin graded MS-60).  While I do not believe I have seen an AU-58 price higher than that for an MS coin, the drop-off that you would think isn't there because of the higher-demand (than expected) for the lower-graded coin.

If coins are being downgraded to AU because of the slightest rub on high points, and assuming it's not bag friction, then many collectors may just shrug it off.  Purists will say that ANY RUB -- from circulation or bags -- means the coin should no longer be considered Mint State.  Therein lies the debate. 

I don't want to beat this dead horse, I'm not choosing sides, I'm just telling us what reality is. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Fair points, but what about AU-55's and AU-58's, with the possibility of + and CAC add-ons ?

Yes, for US coinage but not necessarily for non-US. 

[zadok]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:55 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@zadok:

As I have observed, you are generally a member of few words, but when an issue gets your goat, a fountain of wisdom gushes forth. Much to my surprise, Merriam-Webster backed your contention (on numismatic-related terms) stating that however the O.E.D. chooses to regard etymology, they are obligated to report [and print] current usage as borne by recent written accounts. It took me a while to accept that, and while there are word applications that clearly defy what I was taught as a child, this is no longer my generation. [Grass is grown; you don't "grow" your money in a bank.] It is for generations half the age of the leading vocal candidates to choose who they wish to represent them. [Frankly, I no longer give a d**n].  🤔 

...i must have missed the part bout the coins....

[zadok]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As we have discussed before, many people prefer a great-looking AU-58 over an "ugly" MS-60/61/62 coin (I can't even recall ever seeing a coin graded MS-60).  While I do not believe I have seen an AU-58 price higher than that for an MS coin, the drop-off that you would think isn't there because of the higher-demand (than expected) for the lower-graded coin.

If coins are being downgraded to AU because of the slightest rub on high points, and assuming it's not bag friction, then many collectors may just shrug it off.  Purists will say that ANY RUB -- from circulation or bags -- means the coin should no longer be considered Mint State.  Therein lies the debate. 

I don't want to beat this dead horse, I'm not choosing sides, I'm just telling us what reality is. 

...i can quote u numerous examples where an au58 coin will command higher prices than the same coin in ms60/61 in the liberty seated series...the so-called purists on this forum n elsewhere r not the anointed arbiters they believe themselves to be, their opines r just the same as every one else's, writing 500 footnotes in a book does not equate to being correct...the real debate is to define uncirculated, good luck with that....

[Oldhoopster]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:45 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As we have discussed before, many people prefer a great-looking AU-58 over an "ugly" MS-60/61/62 coin (I can't even recall ever seeing a coin graded MS-60).  While I do not believe I have seen an AU-58 price higher than that for an MS coin, the drop-off that you would think isn't there because of the higher-demand (than expected) for the lower-graded coin.

If coins are being downgraded to AU because of the slightest rub on high points, and assuming it's not bag friction, then many collectors may just shrug it off.  Purists will say that ANY RUB -- from circulation or bags -- means the coin should no longer be considered Mint State.  Therein lies the debate. 

I don't want to beat this dead horse, I'm not choosing sides, I'm just telling us what reality is. 

Your response has nothing to do with my comment.

I read/interpreted from a previous comment that somebody felt there may be a bigger  difference between grades (wear? Value?) because there are more numbers between VF20-XF40 than MS63-Ms-65 for example.  All I did was post where the numbers came from and why the magnitude of the numbers and spread between the numbers means nothing

Maybe I misread the previous posts

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:20 PM, zadok said:

...i can quote u numerous examples where an au58 coin will command higher prices than the same coin in ms60/61 in the liberty seated series...

I only really track Saints, Liberty DEs, and Morgan SDs closely.  Not familiar with Liberty Seated coins (quarters or halfs) at all

What are the prices for the Liberty Seated Series where someone will pay more for a 58 than a 60/61 ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:28 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Your response has nothing to do with my comment.  I read/interpreted from a previous comment that somebody felt there may be a bigger  difference between grades (wear? Value?) because there are more numbers between VF20-XF40 than MS63-Ms-65 for example.  All I did was post where the numbers came from and why the magnitude of the numbers and spread between the numbers means nothing Maybe I misread the previous posts

I'll have to go back and re-read your post but I don't think you're in error.  I think we were just focusing on number differentials in different grade sectors, that's the key point.