CAC Education requested
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73 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

Brett is the head of PCGS, I do not recall the last name off hand.

OK, I thought it was another person who was quoted in the press release when the PE companies bought them.  Maybe the Chairman or Pres or another title. (thumbsu

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12 hours ago, RWB said:

All of it falls back on the absence of clear, repeatable standards - plus inconsistency.

To again borrow a line from an old Twilight Zone episode...

You, RWB are perspicacious... very perspicacious.

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16 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I see the guy got perma-banned ATS. 

Brett has fully endorsed JA & I think he is spending way too much time in the grading room.

I'm glad NGC is staying out of the whole CAC insanity. 

 

 

 

I whole heartedly agree that TPG's should distance themselves from a fourth party verifier. Just look at how their PCGS Board of Experts looked when viewing their inventory.... its all PCGS stuff; only half of the market available. 

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7 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Are they?

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8701/ngc-green-label/

Not exactly the same but...

Interesting and unfortunate at the same time, also the press release is not really very accurate with the statement about making a two way market.   The dealer (RARCOA) is only making bids on a dealer to dealer basis, to be a true two way market that would need to extend to the entire marketplace as well.

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I'm still not very familiar with CAC. I got a basic idea of what they do but I haven't researched much about them. But I finally bought my first coin with a bean on it. Usually in the auctions the ones with the green beans has the bid run way up on them. I finally ended up winning one that the bid wasn't real high on. It was a 1938 D buffalo nickle. It's supposed to have come in the mail today. Cant wait to see it. I'm gonna do some researching on CAC. Would love to learn more about them. 

Edited by Hoghead515
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2 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Interesting and unfortunate at the same time, also the press release is not really very accurate with the statement about making a two way market.   The dealer (RARCOA) is only making bids on a dealer to dealer basis, to be a true two way market that would need to extend to the entire marketplace as well.

"....The coins selected by RARCOA for the NGC Green Label possess a variety of collector-friendly attributes, including attractive eye appeal, a strong strike, impressive luster or great color. For example, a Morgan Dollar with cartwheel luster, a Peace Dollar with a sharp strike and swirling luster or a gold coin with pleasing color may be eligible for the NGC Green Label."

I'm confused.....is NGC creating a color-label strictly for 1 dealer firm (RARCOA) that signifies that the company has probably given NGC specific "wants" on these coins since they might be making sight-unseen bids ?

Is NGC spending more time on these coins relative to others that don't have the label ?

Also, does RARCOA sell coins directly or do they only sell through a retailer like MCM ?

There must be some difference that RARCOA is seeking and NGC is complying with....I'm not sure what.

 

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1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

I'm still not very familiar with CAC. I got a basic idea of what they do but I haven't researched much about them. But I finally bought my first coin with a bean on it. Usually in the auctions the ones with the green beans has the bid run way up on them. I finally ended up winning one that the bid wasn't real high on. It was a 1938 D buffalo nickle. It's supposed to have come in the mail today. Cant wait to see it. I'm gonna do some researching on CAC. Would love to learn more about them. 

CAC is sort of a grading of the graders.  What a coin with a green CAC sticker signifies is that the coin is solid/strong for the grade given by the TPG.  Sometimes, these coins can get an upgrade.  If a coin has the rarer Gold Sticker, it almost is a certainty that the coin could be 1 or even 2 grades too low. 

CAC came into being in the mid-2000's as there were periods of grading when coins were given a grade that it was borderline weak.  For instance, Saints could be A, B, or C.  A coins are strong for the grade and MIGHT qualify for an upgrade but certainly get a CAC sticker.  B and C's wouldn't sticker as they are not strong for the grade (C's if anything might even be 1 grade too high).

That's the short version from me. :)

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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10 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Are they?  https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8701/ngc-green-label/   Not exactly the same but...

Is it possible that NGC's Green Labels for RARCOA are basically coins that might have nice eye appeal for the non-serious collector ? 

If MCM is targeting these people in the retail market....then a Green Label might be weak on strike or have extra bag marks...but maybe it has nice overall eye appeal or other qualities that the novice can easily see but that a professional grader is not impressed by or doesn't count heavily while grading ?

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57 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Does a green sticker mean that the graders got it right?

Apparently, but what I'd like to know is if any collector dissatisfied with the grade given, submits it to CAC, has it green-beaned which infuriates him enough to crack it out and resubmit it to the same TPG, or a different one.  Unfortunately, with grading and the spectrum of factors considered, there is no right or wrong answer -- and the collectors who resist submission for encapsulation are plum out of luck:  CAC does not evaluate raw coins.

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29 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Apparently, but what I'd like to know is if any collector dissatisfied with the grade given, submits it to CAC, has it green-beaned which infuriates him enough to crack it out and resubmit it to the same TPG, or a different one.

Happens all the time, but just having the Green CAC doesn't mean you can crack it out and get a higher grade.  It would depend on a bunch of factors, not least of which is are you going from MS61 to MS62 or MS66 to MS67 (with a huge jump in the value of the coin).  Many people think that coin values come into play with upgrades.

Then there are the collectors who want a DOWNGRADE so the coin can get a CAC sticker it wouldn't at the slightly higher grade. xD

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28 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

I've only had one coin with a green bean, I didn't know what it was. I tore it off the slab and about 6 months later found out what it was. :facepalm: Live and learn.

You can probably contact CAC and I bet they give you another CAC sticker -- might have to pay a few $$$ -- if the coin was in fact originally a CAC coin.  Probably is still that way in their database.

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41 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You can probably contact CAC and I bet they give you another CAC sticker -- might have to pay a few $$$ -- if the coin was in fact originally a CAC coin.  Probably is still that way in their database.

Costs $3 to have the green bean reapplied, plus the back and forth shipping.

 

1 hour ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

 

I've only had one coin with a green bean, I didn't know what it was. I tore it off the slab and about 6 months later found out what it was. :facepalm: Live and learn.

 Should you not wish to spend the money to ship it back and forth and if you still have the coin you can do a cert lookup on the CAC site for free.   And you can link that at the time of sale also.

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1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

Should you not wish to spend the money to ship it back and forth and if you still have the coin you can do a cert lookup on the CAC site for free.   And you can link that at the time of sale also.

Actually, that's a great selling/marketing point...the only CAC-certified coin where the owner took off the CAC sticker ! :)

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3 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

VERY possible but isn't that what a "star" designation represents? Since the green label is not going to be replacing a "star" designation (my guess), what's the point? I guess it is just another private label that has little to no meaning. If RARCOA was really interested in competing with CAC they'd come up with their own sticker to slap on the slab and it could have been strictly for eye appeal instead of picking out A & B coins. I thought RARCOA might have had enough juice to get in the game but it doesn't look like it. 

It's supposed to mean that CAC agrees with the grade and that it is at least a B to an A coin in that grade. Gold means it's an A and probably a good chance it grades higher. You probably don't see many of the gold beans, I would think most people crack them out. Here's a nice little article on certified coin stickers.

https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/coinweek-iq-a-guide-to-certified-coin-stickers/ 

I've only had one coin with a green bean, I didn't know what it was. I tore it off the slab and about 6 months later found out what it was. :facepalm: Live and learn.

That sounds like something I would do. I'd think somebody's kid stuck that on there or something. :roflmao:

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13 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

VERY possible but isn't that what a "star" designation represents? Since the green label is not going to be replacing a "star" designation (my guess), what's the point? I guess it is just another private label that has little to no meaning. If RARCOA was really interested in competing with CAC they'd come up with their own sticker to slap on the slab and it could have been strictly for eye appeal instead of picking out A & B coins. I thought RARCOA might have had enough juice to get in the game but it doesn't look like it. 

It's supposed to mean that CAC agrees with the grade and that it is at least a B to an A coin in that grade. Gold means it's an A and probably a good chance it grades higher. You probably don't see many of the gold beans, I would think most people crack them out. Here's a nice little article on certified coin stickers.

https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/coinweek-iq-a-guide-to-certified-coin-stickers/ 

I've only had one coin with a green bean, I didn't know what it was. I tore it off the slab and about 6 months later found out what it was. :facepalm: Live and learn.

A gold CAC sticker indicates that in the opinion of CAC, the coin grades a minimum of a point higher. Many owners of coins with gold stickers choose not to crack them out, because they typically sell at very strong levels - often higher than what a coin at the next grade up would bring.

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5 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I have a couple but I despise CAC. The stickers have been removed.

Sticky little buggers :eyeroll:

But a grade is simply a number; a CAC sticker is an affirmation, a symbol that stands for something.  Would it be fair to assume you bought the coin with sticker attached -- and were simply unaware you paid more for the coin? (This is a rhetorical question.)

I am not a car collector, but if I were and the car I chose were a Rolls Royce, I would expect to see the Spirit of Ecstasy hood ornament, front and center if only to distinguish it from all the other boxes on the road.

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19 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Got the old cac buffalo nickle in. Can't tell by pics but when you rotate it the sticker says CAC in it. Polish_20210402_181520841.thumb.jpg.e84e2e9f175ad72e4746b9456b383805.jpg

Very nice HH, you're building up quite the collection. Are you focusing on pre 64 quarters or Buffs, both maybe. :whistle:

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1 minute ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Very nice HH, you're building up quite the collection. Are you focusing on pre 64 quarters or Buffs, both maybe. :whistle:

Was working on pre 64 quarters and ran across that. The bid was fairly low so I gave it a shot. I really like buffalos also. 

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3 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

It does...

Cocky Amateur Collector  :grin:

Well, in all fairness, it's either that or, if dissatisfied with the grade, re-submitting for reconsideration. What other alternative is there?

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9 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

1938-D Buffalo:  That looks to be a 1989 Gen 2.1 or 2.2 holder.....more so 2.1....but what is weird is it doesn't say PCGS anywhere on the label.  It IS legit, though.

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/09163364

https://www.pcgs.com/holders

It says it on the back of the holder. Polish_20210402_204339044.thumb.jpg.8f9bda9c7033ffce9daf7832dc526c77.jpg

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