To Grade or not to Grade 1 1

[Woods020]

The other funny thing when you focus so much on grades is that an MS60 coin is often ugly as sin, but shows no wear. An AU58 on the other hand is often times beautiful has the slightest amount of wear on the high spots. I think a lot of new collectors or the budget conscious ones would benefit from collecting in the AU 55-58 graded coins. They are very good looking coins. 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Woods020 said:

Correct wear starts factoring in at AU and down. As far as the difference in MS grades several things come into play such as strike, marks/blemishes, luster, and eye appeal. Morgan dollars are a great example. Many of them are severely bag marked and grade low MS. As the marks reduce and/or are in less focal areas the grade increases. 
 

The ANA grading standards is a good reference book to study on this. 

Your input is much appreciated. Thank you.

[Woods020]

4 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Your input is much appreciated. Thank you.

I gotta say I was surprised by your question. You like to argue that there is a conspiracy in the TPGs and a counsel needs to be created to overrule them. It’s hard to argue grading if you don’t know how it works. Not that I am an expert by any means either but I know the concepts. 
 

I need one of Alex’s funny emojis to insert here  🤪

[Modwriter]

1 hour ago, Woods020 said:

The other funny thing when you focus so much on grades is that an MS60 coin is often ugly as sin, but shows no wear. An AU58 on the other hand is often times beautiful has the slightest amount of wear on the high spots. I think a lot of new collectors or the budget conscious ones would benefit from collecting in the AU 55-58 graded coins. They are very good looking coins. 

Thanks for the advice Woods. I have a XF45 1966 GW quarter that is beautiful and has grown on me lately. Ive been thinking about starting an XF45 graded quarter collection for my own lowball registry.

[Henri Charriere]

2 hours ago, Woods020 said:

I gotta say I was surprised by your question. You like to argue that there is a conspiracy in the TPGs and a counsel needs to be created to overrule them. It’s hard to argue grading if you don’t know how it works. Not that I am an expert by any means either but I know the concepts. 
 

I need one of Alex’s funny emojis to insert here  🤪

No conspiracy -- and No Alex's emojis, please!  I have spent many a sleepless night withstanding the brunt of his unrelenting blows by fists and sledgehammers.

I know how grading works but it doesn't mean I am obliged to like it. If the running commentary is any indication, neither do RWB, Conder -- or for that matter, VKurtB.

I'll go further... when one TPGS' Grading Finalizer assigns a grade another TPGS refuses to cross-grade resulting in the loss to a collector of some $600. and change, that person is being deprived of property (money) without the benefit of due process of law.

[HOT TIP:  As some of you may have heard, a true collector has made his presence known on NGC's Set Registry for French 20-franc gold roosters, seemingly out of nowhere, with a big splash snagging the #3 spot with some of the finest examples of gold roosters known to civilized man.  Consequently, I am dissolving my holdings here, gifting my raw examples and awaiting The Call every collector hopes to receive: "This Q?  Thought you might be interested to know we recently obtained a 1902 MS-64..."  My only other wish is to acquire a Rooster of any date in MS-68 condition before my untimely demise. Regrettably for me, price is no object, an affliction undoubtedly explored in more detail in the latest edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition (DSM-5.)

Back on Track:  I continue to maintain, apparently against popular sentiment, that under the circumstances hereinabove described by the OP, I would be disinclined to have the coins graded.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, Woods020 said:

I gotta say I was surprised by your question. You like to argue that there is a conspiracy in the TPGs and a counsel needs to be created to overrule them.

QA can sometimes write in mysterious ways....but I took that as tounge-in-cheek commentary. 

[GoldFinger1969]

5 hours ago, Woods020 said:

The other funny thing when you focus so much on grades is that an MS60 coin is often ugly as sin, but shows no wear. An AU58 on the other hand is often times beautiful has the slightest amount of wear on the high spots. I think a lot of new collectors or the budget conscious ones would benefit from collecting in the AU 55-58 graded coins. They are very good looking coins. 

Something many threads here and ATS talk about.  The problem could also be how one defines "wear" with Mint State-graded coins having BAG WEAR that is wear nonetheless.  Also, if there is "net grading" you could have a coin with the slightest (circulation) wear (or heavy bag wear) but excellent strike and good luster and other qualities....getting a low-60's grade.

We have some vets and ex-graders here, maybe they can chime in.  The entire "wear" definition is like the 3rd Rail of Coin Forums and I suspect this might have been a taboo topic on these forums 15-20 years ago. 

[Modwriter]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Regrettably for me, price is no object, an affliction undoubtedly explored in more detail in the latest edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition (DSM-5.)

I suffer from a similar affliction. The Corleone disorder. Just when I thought i was out, the coins pulled me back in.

[Conder101]

12 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

what is it that distinguishes a Mint State 60 from all the other Mint State designations

Strike quality and contact marks

12 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

and does wear become a factor in coins only adjudged AU-59, and under?

Yes because if they have wear they aren't MS.

[Henri Charriere]

13 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA can sometimes write in mysterious ways....but I took that as tounge-in-cheek commentary. 

😉

[GoldFinger1969]

13 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Strike quality and contact marks  //  Yes because if they have wear they aren't MS.

(1)  LOTS of bag marks 

(2)  And of course, there's the huge debate if "wear" from bag marks and other non-circulated causes is in fact wear.  You have 2 camps:  the wear-is-wear side, and the wear-is-only-wear-if-its-circulated-wear side.

[Henri Charriere]

Funny hobby. An impossible to overlook chop-mark large enough to accommodate the complete works of Shakespeare is perfectly alright, but show up with a coin replete with abrasions, contusions, incisions, striations and lacerations -- and your heirloom brimming with sentimentality is unilaterally downgraded, and you are shunned.

[Sharann]

On 3/26/2021 at 6:01 AM, JT2 said:

QA you are an eloquent orator if i do say so myself.

Agreed

[Henri Charriere]

10 hours ago, Sharann said:

Agreed

(This is before both of your times but looking back I (and my honorary uncle, VKurtB) were both denounced as Trolls and widely ostracized.  In fact, I dare say there are those who refrain from complimenting me for fear of suffering the same fate.  I appreciate your comments!)

[Alex in PA.]

[Henri Charriere]

3 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

See what I mean?

[Modwriter]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

(This is before both of your times but looking back I (and my honorary uncle, VKurtB) were both denounced as Trolls and widely ostracized.  In fact, I dare say there are those who refrain from complimenting me for fear of suffering the same fate.  I appreciate your comments!)

I was reminded last night as once being a troll and ostracized here myself last year. So far so good since returning. I am going to visit my two local coinshops today for supplies and maybe pick up a coin or three.

Have a great day everybody!

[Just Bob]

I must be out of the loop. I can't recall ever having seen the term "bag wear" before. If anyone has pictures documenting this, I would love to see them. I am curious to know if I can distinguish between that, cabinet friction, and circulation wear, just by viewing pictures.

[Sharann]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

(This is before both of your times but looking back I (and my honorary uncle, VKurtB) were both denounced as Trolls and widely ostracized.  In fact, I dare say there are those who refrain from complimenting me for fear of suffering the same fate.  I appreciate your comments!)

Personally, I think some of your criticism  stems from the fact that there are those who do not understand Shakespeare as well as they do Eric Carle. In the vain attempt to do so, they get a burr under their saddle and try to blame someone else for their own shortcomings. That is where I differ. I enjoy a challenge of words and opinions, which makes for a great debate. In the end, each person is going to believe what they choose to believe regardless, so why try to bash the messenger? 

Anyway, I enjoy reading (and deciphering) your posts. They help me to understand, therefore learn, more than just the basics of a hobby I've grown to love. Thank you for your candor as well as your vocabulary lessons.  (How dull this world would be if we were all alike)

[Modwriter]

16 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I must be out of the loop. I can't recall ever having seen the term "bag wear" before. If anyone has pictures documenting this, I would love to see them. I am curious to know if I can distinguish between that, cabinet friction, and circulation wear, just by viewing pictures.

I googled the term Bag wear on coins and a lot of information came up. PCGS has the best article, Examining Contact Marks on Coins.

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Modwriter said:

I googled the term Bag wear on coins and a lot of information came up. PCGS has the best article, Examining Contact Marks on Coins.

I have never heard the term either but it makes perfect sense. One of the reasons cited by men in declining to carry loose change -- and heavy silver dollars, is holes left in trousers.  One of the more interesting points raised by Modwriter was the re-bagging of Saints stored in the original 1917 bags which were presumably made from a heavy-duty cotton or canvas. If coins, particularly heavy ones, are causing wear to pockets, I can easily seeing their being the cause of fraying developing into holes in bags. I have a sneaky suspicion, however, that it is the newly-minted sharp edges of coins that are responsible for the holes and if that's the case I don't believe our Just Bob will be treated to his A-ha! moment.

[Modwriter]

I got several rolls of quarters directly from the U.S. Mint last year and was very disappointed in their poor condition. Never again. U.S. Mint bags of coins can also be purchased directly also.

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/1/2021 at 4:52 AM, Conder101 said:

Strike quality and contact marks

Yes because if they have wear they aren't MS.

Tks much!  Succinct and to the point.

[Henri Charriere]

1 minute ago, Modwriter said:

I got several rolls of quarters directly from the U.S. Mint last year and was very disappointed in their poor condition. Never again. U.S. Mint bags of coins can also be purchased directly also.

Mass production with insufficient quality control.  In the Royal Mint, they've got the Trial of the Pyck.  Here, we've got Tales of the Crypt. Lovely.

[Conder101]

We also had the equivalent of the Trial of the Pyx, the annual  Assay Commission, until it was done away with in 1982.  It was felt that since we had no precious metal coinage the trial was redundant so it was done away with as a cost saving measure.  Of course it didn't save much because most of the expenses were paid for by the attendees, and then right after it  scrapped precious metal coinage began again.  They dropped the 1982 and 83 mint sets for the same reason, to save money.  No one thought to point out to them the sale of mint set actually MADE money.

[Henri Charriere]

5 hours ago, Conder101 said:

We also had the equivalent of the Trial of the Pyx, the annual  Assay Commission, until it was done away with in 1982.  It was felt that since we had no precious metal coinage the trial was redundant so it was done away with as a cost saving measure.  Of course it didn't save much because most of the expenses were paid for by the attendees, and then right after it  scrapped precious metal coinage began again.  They dropped the 1982 and 83 mint sets for the same reason, to save money.  No one thought to point out to them the sale of mint set actually MADE money.

Off-topic, but I believe there is a chasm, a growing disconnect between the Mint and the ordinary man.  The collectors they've lost in droves with questionable offerings, unimaginative, uninspired designs, poor customer service and inordinately high fees.

[Modwriter]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Off-topic, but I believe there is a chasm, a growing disconnect between the Mint and the ordinary man.  The collectors they've lost in droves with questionable offerings, unimaginative, uninspired designs, poor customer service and inordinately high fees.

The mint hast lost my business. I got several rolls from them last year and a couple of other online coin sellers. Marks, scratches, tons of spots and at a huge loss. I get rolls of coins from my bank without paying the high fees.