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Define "yes"

33 posts in this topic

What is the position of NGC regarding eligibility under the following circumstance:

 

The lowest grade coin in your 50 piece classic commem set is an MS64 Monroe. This is a beautifully toned specimen your grandfather purchased at issue. In 1988, you inherited the coin, and sent to to PCGS to be slabbed. You are a bit surprised by the grade, but, life is life.

 

Roll the clock forward to 2002. You have registered your set, and are just a few steps back of Pop1. You take another look at the Monroe. It sure looks like a solid 65. You crack it out and submit it. You anxiously await the result. The grade is back -- AT !!!

 

You know the provenance of this coin. You know it was in a PCGS slab. You did not return the insert. Are you really obliged to pay for PCGS' error and remove the coin from your registry?

 

My feelings are that the coin has been certified under a proper standard and can be included. But others feel that since the coin isn't actually in a holder that it is no longer considered certified. (note: the Childs 1804 is no longer in the holder - does that mean it isn't PF68 anymore?)

 

What is NGC's official position regarding a circumstance such as the Childs 1804 - it's been graded but isn't in the holder - is it eligible for the Registry????????????

 

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I'll chime in, even though the question was directed at NGC.

 

(I have no life, other than involving coins and my dog! And, the Mets suck!)

 

I think the raw coins with their original inserts are eligible. After all, we did once pay for the priviledge of getting that stinkin' insert. And, we still have the coin that came with the stinkin' insert.

 

The whole notion of a coin's adopting a financial premium because of plastic and a slip of paper with a number on it somehow doesn't sit well with me. I know that there are practical benefits to 3rd-party grading, but hashing out the ethics of coin registration isn't one of them.

 

For those who prefer a formal and tightened ethical process to coin registration, well, please tell it to my dog. She'll look at you, wag her tail and expect a biscuit.

 

EVP

 

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I can certainly respect others opinions on this subject.

 

If the coin has been cracked out for some unknown reason it does not belong in the Registry.Who is to say that the person that cracked the coin will use the proper storage and handling to keep the coin in the condition it was in when slabbed. There are just too many things that could happen to lower the coins grade and I honestly cannot think of anything that would raise the coins grade.

 

Cracked Out...Its Out.

 

Ken

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Coins turn all the time in certified holders. A dealer once pulled out an entire double row box of first generation holders for me at a local show. I thought I'd hit the mother lode until I looked at the coins - total, absolute garbage - wouldn't currently grade within 3 points of the grade on the PCGS insert.

 

Since no quality control is done on the certified coins, why should the arguement that the cracked out coin may not certify the same again be applicable???

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Ken, I know you know that PCGS slabs are not impervious to moisture and gases. Until Big Brother keeps a camera on everyone's slabbed registry coins how do you police it. He still owns the coin that was graded by PCGS, until they change their rules who cares what he does with it. There is way too much of a penchant to worry about what some one does or doesn't do with their coins.

 

This registry thing is taken way too seriously.

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TDN:

 

True that they turn all of the time. NGC and PCGS will do something about that if the coin is still in the holder. Man what do you think they would say if you sent the coin and the Insert ? Bet I know. smile.gif If I ever get my 29S back from a Seattle dealer I will show you what NGC does with a Coin that turned Ugly in a Slab. The Dealer has had the Coin since the last Long Beach Show. Is NGC that slow or am I going to have to drive to Seattle and put Knots on his head.

 

Mike:

 

I must agree. Some folks go way over board on the Registry. It would be aufully nice to just have a Non-scoreing Registry for folks to display thier wares and meet fellow collectors with simular Series interests. For now we must put up with what is available.

 

I might come over as one of the Registry Overboard guys, but really all that is desired to myself is Fair Play by the participants and the Grading Services which sponsor these Registries. Participants....Play by the Rules and Sponsers.....Weight the Darn things correctly, which we know both NGC and PCGS has screwed up on. grin.gif

 

Ken

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YOU own the coin. NGC owns the Registry. If the coin is out of the NGC holder (no longer with the NGC nod of approval or warranty) it should not be in their Registry.

 

Come up with a "Dansco Registry" or even name one after yourself. Pure and simple: "NGC Registry" should only have NGC coins in them*

 

 

Well, ok- I know they also allow PCGS coins, but that's for another thread.

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My post from across the street:

--

Folks,

 

If I paid for a coin in a PCGS slab, and I crack out the coin and keep both the coin and the insert, then it's my business what I do with the insert and the coin. I can put the coin in a paper flip or submit it to NGC or whatever. I can also register my coin in the Registry game.

 

I paid for the right to do that, and unless someone can force me to de-register my entry, then it stays.

 

Does anyone else here understand that?!? I paid for the coin, it's plastic and the stupid paper insert that comes with it a serial # and a grade. I PAID FOR IT, AND I WILL DO WITH IT WHAT I PLEASE.

 

Anyone who disagrees is welcome to disagree. It's only a matter of opinion. But, it's only your opinion. You may even have an opinion that I give you all my coins, but that's not going to happen either.

 

So, bottom line: no one can tell me what to do. I paid for that right.

 

If anyone wants to call me a cheat or something negative, well, you can but it won't be productive nor appropriate. Remember that we're having a disagreement over the interpretation of the rules of the game, and that simply is a difference of opinion.

 

EVP

 

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NGC owns the Registry. Exactly. That's why I'm asking them to tell me the rules, which I will follow. Just like I'll follow the PCGS rules for their Set Registry.

 

But I'll not abide by a unilateral interpretation of vague rules that is posted by a PCGS Forum member and not the actual "Rules Makers".

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I currently have 4 highly ranked sets. I am seriously considering de-slabbing two of them. Would I keep the coins? Heck, yes! Would I de-register them? Not unless Collectors Society folks make me.

 

Why? I suppose I agree with EVP in that I did pay for them, and they are my business. In fact, I paid a lot of money for the coins. And, I know that I'm not doing anything to try to cheat the system. I.e., I actually own the coins still, and I'm not doctoring them or trying to upgrade them, etc. ...

 

Even if the CS folks don't speak up on the issue, I can be convinced to de-register my de-slabbed coins, but only if someone can offer a perfect solution to what ails this problem that goes beyond the repetitive recitation of opinions...

 

Linda's Daddy

 

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You own the coin with all rights, quarantees and entitlements thereof. NGC owns the serial number of the coin and is, in effect, selling it to you or to anyone who has legal ownership of the coin. The moment that you remove the coin from the holder, you have nullified all rights and quarantees of NGC . The coin at this moment becomes : 19XX-S, MSXX etc., formally graded by NGC as: #XXXXXXXX. This is the long and short of it, there is no alternative position . tongue.gif

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why would you take your whole set out of its holders?

 

Hi LincolnSence:

 

I like to search for ways to display my coins, and having a run of mis-matched slabs is one of the least appealing ways to display them.

 

My Early Dollars set is one of them that is up for consideration. A nice run of R.5's and better hardly needs NGC's stamp of approval when viewed by the several serious variety collectors out there. (Yes, it's true that serious collectors who really pursue the material will not hesitate to buy the coin when there is no holder. I own many raw super-rarities of this series.)

 

If you check out the top research publications for this series, the census keepers of top specimens don't really take into consideration (too much) that they are slabbed.

 

Linda's Daddy

 

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This is the long and short of it, there is no alternative position

 

Not true - if you have the coin and the tag, NGC will put the coin back in the same grade holder upon request. So will PCGS. That would tend to lend credence to the fact that if the coin was graded by the service, that the grade follows the coin (and not the slab).

 

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TDN:

 

If the Coin Warrants the Grade according too thier Current Standards, True or False ? A question not a quote.

 

Ken

 

EDIT: Shucks, forget this Question. I see it was Answered "somewhat" in another thread that has sprung from this thread.

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I'll say yes and no. Not if it's so totally ugly as to be offensive in that grade, but yes, even if it is a stretch by their current standards. If they graded it that way once (and believe that assertion to be true) then they'll honor it. This is a strong reason to not disallow cracked out coins in any registry.

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if you have the coin and the tag, NGC will put the coin back in the same grade holder upon request.

 

My experience differs from yours. I did request, and was told that I'd have to take my chances with the graders. And, that I should return the inserts.

 

Oh, well. No biggie, since these are absolutely nice coins and not for sale.

 

Linda's Daddy

 

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IMHO, strictly speaking, no! The Child's dollar is not encapsulated. :tongue

 

Linda's Daddy: My experience with PCGS was the same as yours, "resubmit it, with the tag, and take your chances". tongue.gif

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Question out of ignorance:

 

RE: Not true - if you have the coin and the tag, NGC will put the coin back in the same grade holder upon request. So will PCGS.

 

How do they know that your tag goes with the bodybagged coin? Do you have to have some kind of proof first?

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if you have the coin and the tag, NGC will put the coin back in the same grade holder upon request. So will PCGS. That would tend to lend credence to the fact that if the coin was graded by the service, that the grade follows the coin (and not the slab).

 

Ummm, I don't think there is any way this could be true. If I crack out a nice PF68 and run over it with a dump truck, anyone who later bought that coin from me reslabbed in a PF68 holder would come first after me then after NGC with guns ablazin.

 

Phil

 

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they have to believe it was in the holder at the grade assigned and nothing has happened to the coin.

 

Doesn't that mean they have to regrade it? I mean they are going to look at it and say hmmm this WAS PF68 but it IS a PF67, must have suffered some slight damage from who knows what. If they just blindly reslabbed it I could crack out a PF 67 and submit it with my PF 68 tag and then resubmit my PF 68 later and turn a 67 and 68 into two 68's

 

Phil

 

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TDN,

 

I disagree with your statement about PCGS and NGC reholdering coins after they've been broken out and the 'supposed' owner still has the 'supposed' grading tag that is 'supposedly' the one from the same coin he cracked out, and so on. In fact, I have been told by both NGC and PCGS that once a coin is cracked out,,,,,"you're on your own, and their grade guaranty is no longer in effect". Rick Montgomery also told me that you MUST have some sort of very specific documentation supporting your case, (eg: an auction pic and description of your coin by the auction company and it matches your coin exactly, or a receipt with the tag number from a reputable dealer who 'remembers this exact coin', or some other very convincing proof) along with the original tag, and the coin must not have been damaged in any way, and even then, there's absolutely no guaranty they will reholder it at the same grade as the tag you send in with it, nor do they have any responsibility to do so.

 

If what you were saying was true, nobody would ever have to worry about cracking and getting a downgrade again, as they could just send the coin back in with its previous tag and have it 'reholdered'. This policy would also open the flood gates for dishonest individuals in all kinds of different ways IMO.

 

I'm sure PCGS and NGC have both done this in certain cases and for certain individuals, however, this is not their normal policy or procedure as far as I'm aware.

 

Dragon

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MUST have some sort of very specific documentation supporting your case, (eg: an auction pic and description of your coin by the auction company and it matches your coin exactly, or a receipt with the tag number from a reputable dealer who 'remembers this exact coin', or some other very convincing proof) along with the original tag, and the coin must not have been damaged in any way, and even then, there's absolutely no guaranty they will reholder it at the same grade as the tag you send in with it, nor do they have any responsibility to do so.

 

I don't disagree with this. And it happens a lot. I personally have witnessed 3 or 4 instances myself. Multiply that by hundreds of dealers and thousands of collectors. (or maybe my few times are isolated incidents - imagine the odds on that!).

 

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Let me throw this out. Suppose someone offered to sell you a PCGS or NGC coin that has been cracked out, but they still had the plastic and the insert; would you be suspicious of it or would you have the same confidence in it that you would have had it remained in the slab?

 

Sure, I know, buy the coin and not the slab, but frankly, I'd rather buy the coin in the slab.

 

And while the coin may have been MS XX in the slab, what guarantee is there that the coin wasn't damaged?

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EVP: Slow down and catch your breath. No one is calling you anything. You own the coin and you own the insert. What you do with them is your business. Finit! tongue.gif

 

Once the insert is out of the plastic, it is a worthless piece of paper. You can send it back with the coin to be REGRADED or not. The coin will still be regraded and you will pay the fee. There is no right or wrong in any of this!

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