Auction Catalogs 1 1

[Conder101]

If you just want the information the catalog can be downloaded from the NNP for free.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Conder101 said:

If you just want the information the catalog can be downloaded from the NNP for free.

Thanks Conder....that's good for when the price is too high or when I'm not sure if the catalog has any relevant information.

I got the 2012 FUN Duckor catalog and it's worth having with the pictures.  Ditto the Thaine Price one.  Others I am not sure about so rather than spend $$$ and be disappointed, NNP is a good place to make sure it's worth the $$$ or just to grab the commentaries without pics.

Only problem is the portal can be tough to use at times.  Maybe I need to read the User Guide. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Crawtomatic]

5 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Probably $150 or so if you bought them on Ebay, unless they were in bad condition.

Not CGC 10's by any means but very nice copies actually.  They're softcover and only 1 or 2 even shows a spine crease.  A previous owner taped an asterisk on the spine of them all like you'd see reference books shelved in a library but without any other catalog system in place.  Some even include the original auction by mail paperwork and/or the subsequent "Prices Realized" paperwork that was mailed out.  Which, for an ephemera interested guy like me not even born until the late 70s, is a pretty neat find and glimpse into how it all worked back then.

I've sorely been lacking as it goes to reviewing these like I said I would.  I'll try again.

[GoldFinger1969]

Most catalogs I would think are softcover, no ?  Virtually everyone I've seen for sale has been softcover.

I did get a special David Akers hardcover for the Thaine B. Price collection.  Paid a bit more, but an Akers catalog for a classic sale like Price...and hardcover....figured it was worth it.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[physics-fan3.14]

23 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Most catalogs I would think are softcover, no ?  Virtually everyone I've seen for sale has been softcover.

I did get a special David Akers hardcover for the Thaine B. Price collection.  Paid a bit more, but an Akers catalog for a classic sale like Price...and hardcover....figured it was worth it.

 

Hardcovers are usually special issue, limited release. They often trade at a large premium, as they are higher quality. 

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Hardcovers are usually special issue, limited release. They often trade at a large premium, as they are higher quality. 

Figured.....I am still wondering why HA put out the Morse Collection of Saints book in hardcover but then put out the Burdette re-issue Duckor update in softcover.

[GoldFinger1969]

Got my 1998 Thaine B. Price Collection auction catalog today.......very nice, hardcover, COA, price list for items sold.   Only surprising thing was that the pictures were not in color, which I thought was surprising.

Still, very happy to have this which was put out by David Akers own company and has extensive commentary from him on every single coin. 

Coins included $10 and $5 and $2.50 Indian Heads, Barber Half Dollars, and Saints.

[Conder101]

4 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Only surprising thing was that the pictures were not in color, which I thought was surprising.

Color images in catalogs in general only goes back about 10 years or so.  Before that B&W was standard and often just halftone images. (Color reproduction was too expensive)

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Conder101 said:

Color images in catalogs in general only goes back about 10 years or so.  Before that B&W was standard and often just halftone images. (Color reproduction was too expensive)

There actually was a "color plate" of all the coins with small color photos at the beginning of the catalog.  But the larger ones inside alongside the commentary were B&W.

[GoldFinger1969]

....I wanted to keep the hardcover TBP Catalog in the excellent condition I got it (pages, binding, etc.) so I got a 2nd one, a softcover, to read the next few weeks. 

Except IT'S also in pristine condition !! 

I may have to order a 3rd one, in junky condition.

Edited February 11, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Is there a reason why some catalogs (mostly non-Heritage) do NOT include the grade of the coin in the headline description ? 

The Dallas Bank/Browning (2001) catalog I got uses pre-TPG terminology like "Gem Uncirculated" in the 1st sentence leading off the commentary.  Sometimes, grade is mentioned later on esp. if there are other competing coins and they rank them.

Heritage leads right off with the TPG and grade.  BTW, I presume that the coins were in fact graded (I was looking mostly at the Saints' listings, but the same abscence of TPG and grade applied to other coins, too).

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/18/2021 at 4:20 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is there a reason why some catalogs (mostly non-Heritage) do NOT include the grade of the coin in the headline description ? 

The Dallas Bank/Browning (2001) catalog I got uses pre-TPG terminology like "Gem Uncirculated" in the 1st sentence leading off the commentary.  Sometimes, grade is mentioned later on esp. if there are other competing coins and they rank them.

Heritage leads right off with the TPG and grade.  BTW, I presume that the coins were in fact graded (I was looking mostly at the Saints' listings, but the same abscence of TPG and grade applied to other coins, too).

Asking again....all the catalogs I have were years after the TPGs started grading.

Only Heritage seems to have the grades prominently features in the 1st/opening sentence.

[Crawtomatic]

On 1/10/2021 at 1:07 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's awesome.....wonder if they have any unique commentary or writings on Saints or 1907 High Reliefs ?

Ok, still getting around to this but due to an issue with my eBay store I'm working out with them I have some additional time.

First catalog pulled is "The Garrett Colection Sales" Sale 4, March 25-26, 1981.  No Saints or double eagles of any kind but it's the auction with the 1787 Brasher Doubloon, punch mark on breast.  Very nice full 2 page full color blocks of obverse & reverse along with 3 pages written up regarding the coin.  Author not notated but I'm guessing it may have been Bowers as he did the foreword.  Nice condition on the catalog.  Includes the bid sheet still attached inside the back cover and the Prices Realized mailer that was sent out later.  It's funny, not in a haha way, but interesting, that the coin was graded in VF condition back then and now lives in an AU50 holder.

I'll update you if I come across any Saints/high relief info in these others.

[Crawtomatic]

Ok, @GoldFinger1969 - here's one for you:

The Roy Harte Collection, Part III - January 25-27, 1983

Lot 641:  Famous MCMVII High Relief Double Eagle Formerly Owned by President Roosevelt.  Sold for $19,800 and has a nice write up plus color photo.  I'll see if I can add the images here w/o reducing their size too much.  If it's too difficult to read let me know and I'll transcribe it.

The spine is broken on this catalog and repaired with a strip of packing tape.  Which is unfortunate because it doesn't appear to have been heavily thumbed or worn, just stored too dry.

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Craw, very interesting.   Great job !  

I am pretty sure that the official rating of MS-65 is not an actual TPG certification but the grade that "Choice Uncirculated" corresponded to back pre-1986.

I wonder if that High Relief actually might score an actual MS-67 from the TPGs.  Probably well-taken care of if it was one that actually belonged to Teddy R.....probably a $60,000-$100,000 coin today.

Edited February 23, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Crawtomatic]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thanks Craw, very interesting.   Great job !  

I am pretty sure that the official rating of MS-65 is not an actual TPG certification but the grade that "Choice Uncirculated" corresponded to back pre-1986.

I wonder if that High Relief actually might score an actual MS-67 from the TPGs.  Probably well-taken care of if it was one that actually belonged to Teddy R.....probably a $60,000-$100,000 coin today.

I have lots of "wonders" about that particular coin.  The proof IHC above it is described as being cleaned/lightly polished and it was also owned by his Teddy and his daughter.  So then I'd wonder if the 1907 had any signs of similar treatment. 

But mostly I wonder if it ever was encapsulated by a subsequent owner.  Hopefully the label would display it's provenance but if it doesn't then it could lose it over time if it got subjected to crackouts & resubs.  Grade aside, I think it would be a shame to lose knowledge that this coin was owned by Roosevelt.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

I have lots of "wonders" about that particular coin. 

I have a listing of all the 1907 High Reliefs and I don't see any going from TR to anybody with the last name "Harte."

I'll keep digging........

 

[Crawtomatic]

@GoldFinger1969 Any idea how to find out who was the winning buyer in any of these auctions?  Would you have to contact the gallery and ask for that info?

Also, just came across this guy's site of catalogs, prices realized lists, and other related items.  http://brycebooks.squarespace.com/storage/Coin-Auction-Catalogs.htm 

I'm sure you've seen it but just in case.

[GoldFinger1969]

44 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

@GoldFinger1969 Any idea how to find out who was the winning buyer in any of these auctions?  Would you have to contact the gallery and ask for that info?  Also, just came across this guy's site of catalogs, prices realized lists, and other related items.  http://brycebooks.squarespace.com/storage/Coin-Auction-Catalogs.htm  I'm sure you've seen it but just in case.

Usually, for the top-of-the-line coins in each type, they say the list of owners with the words "Ex." preceeding it.

I would think the gallery won't give out that information.  Sometimes, bidders are anonymous until they reveal themselves later, if at all (i.e., the 1933 Saint in 2002, the 1927-D Saint I saw auctioned at FUN 2020).  This "Harte" collection isn't as famous as the Garrett, Price, Eliasberg, etc. collections that we see on the lineage of other coins.  I haven't seen the name before but I'll double-check the Bowers' GUIDE BOOK.

It's NOT on the list of the 5 top-end 1907 High Reliefs auctioned through HA because I cut-and-pasted a few of those into my Saints PDF.  Could be others I didn't see (and if this was cleaned and/or a lower grade, that would eclipse the ownership of TR and his daughter in terms of making the coin valuable) and/or it could have gone to Stacks or another auction house.  The 5 high-end 1907 HR's I included in my Saints PDF were all MS-68 or above, except for the Flat Rim MS-67.

Edited February 23, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

The Duckor 2012 FUN Catalog I got is a real classic because I get lots of commentaries from the late David Akers specific to that catalog (he died later that year) or from his book (2008) or the Price sale (1998).

Did anybody here ever meet David Akers ?  I wasn't into Saints that much when he passed away, wish I had a chance to meet him at a big coin show or something. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

I just bought the catalogue for the Swiss Bank Corporation Sale #20, Ortiz Latin America collection.  Some really premium coins in there, including those he bought from Norweb and Sellshopp.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

I just bought the catalogue for the Swiss Bank Corporation Sale #20, Ortiz Latin America collection.  Some really premium coins in there, including those he bought from Norweb and Sellshopp.

Where'd you get it from, WC ?   Norweb I know of, Sellshopp -- never heard of it. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

I just bought the catalogue for the Swiss Bank Corporation Sale #20, Ortiz Latin America collection.  Some really premium coins in there, including those he bought from Norweb and Sellshopp.

By "he" you mean David Akers ?  Someone else ?

I went into the HA archives and punched up every sale of the Duckor Saints -- and some other premium Saints from other sales -- to not only get the descriptive information on the coins but the additional solo commentaries from David Akers.  With all of my DE and Saint books NOT in PDF/smarpthone format, I am able to cut-and-past them into Word and PDF formats for my phone and PC.

Edited March 17, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

19 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

By "he" you mean David Akers ?  Someone else ?

I went into the HA archives and punched up every sale of the Duckor Saints -- and some other premium Saints from other sales -- to not only get the descriptive information on the coins but the additional solo commentaries from David Akers.  With all of my DE and Saint books NOT in PDF/smarpthone format, I am able to cut-and-past them into Word and PDF formats for my phone and PC.

No.  "He" as in Ortiz.  The catalogue includes Latin America colonial only.  No US coins at all.  I also have the Sellshopp catalogue (same firm from 1988).  Norweb collected both US and world coinage.

The firm was the coin division of the Swiss Bank Corporation later known as Sincona.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, World Colonial said:

No.  "He" as in Ortiz.  The catalogue includes Latin America colonial only.  No US coins at all.  I also have the Sellshopp catalogue (same firm from 1988).  Norweb collected both US and world coinage.  The firm was the coin division of the Swiss Bank Corporation later known as Sincona.

Sounds like a great catch, congrats.  You might want to check out high-priced coin sales @ HA (or other online sources) and check their archives for commentary and information.  It not only might be new information you weren't aware of, but you can cut-and-paste into a Word/PDF document for your smartphone/PC if other sources aren't available that way. 

I can't get online/PDF formats for any the Saint books I have.    So having the detailed commentary + Akers Comments from the HA archives is a good alternative.

Edited March 18, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

20 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Sounds like a great catch, congrats.  You might want to check out high-priced coin sales @ HA (or other online sources) and check their archives for commentary and information.  It not only might be new information you weren't aware of, but you can cut-and-paste into a Word/PDF document for your smartphone/PC if other sources aren't available that way. 

I look at Heritage regularly.

I am always on the lookout for coins in my series that I did not know existed before.  I have a noticeable proportion of the better ones in the NGC census and a few from PCGS where far fewer have been graded.  There are still a noticeable number illustrated in catalogs or as plate coins I have never seen offered for sale. 

The Ortiz sale occurred in 1991 when I wasn't aware of it and would not have the money to buy much of anything anyway.  The collection didn't have many in my series but does have six I had not seen before.  Now, I just have to wait for one to come up for sale and hope it is at auction where I can compete for it. 

One PCGS forum member collects a related series but he has the resources to have a dealer find coins for him.  I don't have the budget to do that.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

One PCGS forum member collects a related series but he has the resources to have a dealer find coins for him.  I don't have the budget to do that.

Even if I had the $$$, what's the fun in that ?  I want to find the coins and buy 'em on my own time and dime.

If I had the money and could somehow complete an entire collection of Saints within a month, what fun would that be, right ?

[World Colonial]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Even if I had the $$$, what's the fun in that ?  I want to find the coins and buy 'em on my own time and dime.

If I had the money and could somehow complete an entire collection of Saints within a month, what fun would that be, right ?

The coins this forum member and I collect are unlike practically any US coin, even though those I buy are moderate to low priced by US coin standards.

To have any realistic chance of completing my series, I will either need to find a dealer to locate some of the coins for me (possibly a noticeable proportion) or hope what I do not own isn't sold predominantly or exclusively through private transactions. I might also literally have to wait for the owner to die off.

So far, every coin I have bought in my primary series has been where anyone else could have directly competed against me, but I am "running out" of coins to buy in this manner.  By "running out", I am referring to the date/denomination combinations available in the TPG data, since I have literally almost never seen one outside of a holder where one (or a few) aren't otherwise graded.

The coins I do not own which are in the collections I am referring to, I have never seen these come up for sale in almost 20 years of trying to buy it, to my knowledge.  A few might have ended up in the TPG pops but if so, it's not any I don't have already.  Sellschopp sold in 1988, Ortiz in 1991 and Patterson in 1996.  Those are the only three collections I know which have the coins I am describing in any number.  Any others I know have a coin here or there or were sold even earlier.

As an example, Ortiz owned a 1768 Peru 1/2R described as a choice MS under current grading standards.  I own the NGC XF "Details" and it's easily the best I have seen in almost 20 years, by far.  It's one of the few and much better than the plate coin in my two reference books.  With a mintage of 612, 000, it presumably isn't absolutely rare but if you want to get an idea of the scarcity, take a look at the PCGS Coin Facts estimates for Liberty Seated half dimes along with the mintages.  Some may be scarcer absolutely where the mintage is much lower, but other than the unique 1870-S, I don't believe a single one is even close in any quality any advanced collector would want to buy.

So, what I am telling you is that you are thinking in the context of collecting a US series where practically any can be completed from anywhere between one day to a few months in "high quality" or at least a quality most collectors will accept.  Some of the higher availability is due to the much higher price level but mostly, it's because US coins US collectors consider "scarce" or "rare" are common and where it isn't, still not remotely hard to buy. 

As an example, outside of the 1913 LHN, 1933 Indian Head Eagle, and few Saints, I can reasonably expect that every single other 20th century US circulation strike and proof is either available right now or can be acquired in "high quality" in at most a few months (usually less). Every one of these series except for Indian Head eagles and Saints can be completed in "high quality" in one day.

What I am describing to you, this is a primary reason the type of coins I buy are of limited interest to hardly anyone.  It's too difficult to buy, even if the collector is otherwise interested.

Edited March 19, 2021 by World Colonial

[Henri Charriere]

22 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

As an example, outside of the 1913 LHN, 1933 Indian Head Eagle, and few Saints, I can reasonably expect that every single other 20th century US circulation strike and proof is either available right now or can be acquired in "high quality" in at most a few months (usually less). Every one of these series except for Indian Head eagles and Saints can be completed in "high quality" in one day.

 

[Henri Charriere]

Just now, Quintus Arrius said:

 

But what do you sat to a seasoned veteran like VKurtB who last year outright questioned the "desirability" of any collection that can be assembled in 90 days, or less?