Auction Catalogs 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/22/2022 at 6:47 AM, Conder101 said:

There are at least four Eliasberg catalogs, one for his US gold collection, two for his other US coins and one that had his foreign gold coins.

It appears the sale went on over 12-15 years, am I correct ?  It's not like they sold the whole collection in 2 or 3 years it appears.

I was in college when it started so I had lost interest in coins at that time and was unaware what was going on.

Edited February 22, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:21 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It appears the sale went on over 12-15 years, am I correct ?  It's not like they sold the whole collection in 2 or 3 years it appears.

I was in college when it started so I had lost interest in coins at that time and was unaware what was going on.

...yea there was a lot of that unawareness going on during my college years too.....c2h5oh i think it was called...

[Oldhoopster]

I remember shelling out $15 to Bowers and Ruddy for the gold collection catalog while in high school.  I actually read through all the listings when it arrived.  As a bonus, B&R kept sending me catalogs which made my feel important.  The catalog still resides in my library

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I  Auction Catalogs! Any time I can pick-up an auction catalog that represents a great collection of coins, I try to do it.  The pictures alone are with the price of admission in many cases.  Financial data can be hit-and-miss, but having the catalog allows me to quickly look-up hammer prices and sometimes spurs me to do so out of curiosity.  

[GoldFinger1969]

The Menjou Catalog (1950):  Just got this beaut earlier today.  Adolphe Menjou was an actor from the Silent Era and The Golden Era of films.  Wow, talk about a trip down memory lane.  Created to sell part of his large collection, the catalog had a Quintuple Stella 1879.....1841 Quarter Eagle....1815 Half Eagle....1875 $3 gold.....Trade Dollars of 1884 and 1885.

Abner Kreisberg and Abe Kosoff prepared the catalog and oversaw the auction.  You veteran guys must know those names.

Total raised was $134,627.   2,200 items for sale.....the Quintuple Stella was estimated to sell for $5,000 but went for $3,400.  The Trade Dollars of 1884 and 1885 were estimated to sell for $1,000 and $2,000 respectively....actually sold for $765 and $1,350.

More to follow......

Edited March 9, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Ah...Saints, my true passion.   First, I noticed a "Rare St. Gaudens Proof Double Eagle" headline.  This is an alleged Proof MCMVII High Relief Saint.  So the term "proof" was used formally in catalogs like this prior to NGC creating them on the label.  The commentary notes that the proof "came from the widow of a gentleman associated with the mint in 1907."  I think this could be Barber Coins, I have to check RWB's Saints book.  The widow had 2 of these Proof High Reliefs...and "the $10 rolled edge with periods and the wire edge with periods."

Kosoff & Kreisberg noted that the coin was rarer than the MCMVII UHR which was "valued at $3,000."  But despite a $1,000 estimate the "Proof" HR Saint only sold for $825.   A pair of MCMVII HR's (wire & flat) were estimated to sell for $125 each but sold for $117.50 and $112, respectively.

The 1921 Saint estimated to go for $750 but nabbed $575.  A 1929 Saint estimated at $500 but got $300.  Both coins "Uncirculated."

A 1924-S Saint is called "the rarest of all double eagles" (did K&K know something about the 1933's ?  )...estimated for $2,250, went for $2,000.  K&K said it was "the best" they've seen.  A 1930 Saint estimated at $475 went for $385.  The "Excessively Rare" (they like that phrase !  ) 1926-D Saint went for $2,000 with an estimate of $2,500.  1925 Saint Uncirculated went for $560 after a $650 estimate.  1931-D Saint was one of the few coins that went for a higher amount than expected:  $1,325 vs. $1,100 estimate.  

Remember...excluding the 1933 Saint (the confiscations had started)...the rarest at the time of this auction were the 1924-S, 1926-D, and 1926-S.

Cheapest Saints listed as "Very Fine" and considered commons was about $44.  

Most coins, Saints and all others, went for LESS than the estimates.  I wonder if the outbreak of the Korean War a few weeks later impacted bidding.

Edited March 9, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Man, I tell you...going through this 1950 auction catalog.....even with 95% of the coins foreign to me....it's like opening up a Time Capsule.

Did anybody here know a Henry Grunthal ?

Edited March 9, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Biggest Sellers & Surprises, 1950 Menjou Auction:

Here's a listing of the non-Saint notable sales in the 1950 Mejou Auction:

1802 Half Dime...at the time, they said no coins better than FINE were found and one in 1907 got $500.  But this coin was estimated $ $750 and went for $425.  According to the book, only 16 known (still the case ?).

1894-S Dime: 24 minted, only 7 said to exist at the time (still the case ?).  This coin was supposedly a proof.  Estimate @ $2,500 but went for $1,850.

1873-CC Dime:  One of the FEW coins that went above the estimate...and boy did it !!  Estimate was $1,000 it went for $3,650.  Without arrows, described as a superb gem on par with the 1804 Dollar or 1913 Nickel.

1876-CC 20 cent piece (never even knew they made those !!)....estimated for $2,000 but went for $1,325.  10 specimens believed at the time.

1823 Quarter:  1823 over 22.....estimated $750 but sold for $465.  Another coin that sold for a higher price a few years ealrier in the "World's Greatest Collection" auction.  Somebody named "Atwater" also had a $750 specimen.

1827 Quarter:  $3,000 estimate, $2,725 sold.  5 or 6 believed to exist at the time.  A 2nd coin, a proof less lustrous, estimated $1,000 but went for $675.

1796 Half Dollar: 15-star variety....some rub/wear on high point....die line....estimated $600, sold for $590.  The 16-star variety.  Light circulated evidence or bag marks it estimated for $600 and sold for $600.

1838 New Orleans Half Dollar:  Beistle (1929) said 3 pieces; K&K said 6-7.  One sold at WGC for $1,600, Atwater $2,200, and Neil estimate was $3,000...this one ended up going for $1,650 despite estimate of $3,000.

1853 Half Dollar: The Standard Catalogue had no value for this rare coin so no estimate...went for $890.  The WGC, Atwater, Neil, Dunham, Geis, Higgy, Olden, and Stickney collections didn't have one.

1834 Quarter Eagle:  Estimate $600, sold for $540.  With motto.  Proof-like might be proof.

1841 Quarter Eagle:  Estimate $6,000, sold for 45,100.  Highest priced coin.  Struck only for private collections.  Only 6 or 7 struck in total, 2 for U.S. Govt.

1863 Quarter Eagle:  $1,250 estimate, $975 actual price.

1854-S Quarter Eagle:  $1,250 estimate, $725 actual.

1875 $3 Gold Piece:  $3,000 estimate, $2,675 sale price.  Brilliant proof as listed in the catalog.

Panama Pacific Set:  $1,350 estimate, $1,115 actual sale price.

$4 Gold Stella:  $550 estimate, $500 actual price.   Latin Monetary Standard creation coin.

1795 Half Eagle:  $750 estimate, $500 actual price.

1815 Half Eagle:  $5,000 estimate sold for $3,000...uncirculated, so worth 50% more than Standard Catalog price (VF).  Could be finest 1815 of all.

1819 Half Eagle:  $2,000 estimate, $1,100 sale price

1821 Half Eagle:  $1,000 estimate, $600 sales price.  The 1822 -- only 3 around -- had Brand Coin sell for $14,000 in 1944...a record for any coin.

1827 Half Eagle:  $2,200 estimate, $1,525 sale.

1828 Half Eagle:  $2,200 estimate, $1,402 sale.

1829 Half Eagle:  $3,000 estimate, $2,200 sale.  Small date.

1858 Eagle:  $3,500 estimate, $1,750 sale.

Edited March 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

David Akers Double Eagles Auction Book:  Does anybody have this book ?  I'm thinking of getting it. 

Is it just tables of results or is there lots of commentary on the auctions, Double Eagles, etc ?

Edited March 18, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[DWLange]

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. Though the actor did have some coins, Abe Kosoff simply used his name with permission to promote the sale. Ol' Abe wasn't adverse to bending the truth a bit, but the same was true of most of his contemporaries.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:41 PM, DWLange said:

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. Though the actor did have some coins, Abe Kosoff simply used his name with permission to promote the sale. Ol' Abe wasn't adverse to bending the truth a bit, but the same was true of most of his contemporaries.

Really ?  My understanding was that he was a big believer in gold coins but I never saw anything that said he was a hard-core coin collector.  So I was surprised by the hundreds of small denomination, non-gold coins in the auction.

I know he liked gold coins and loved the MCMVII High Reliefs....you think maybe Kossoff and Kreisberg just sold someone else's hard-to-sell small denomination inventory alongside the few hundred (or fewer) Menjou gold coins ?

Edited March 18, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:41 PM, DWLange said:

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. 

You know, Dave, now that I think about it.....if you're a friend of baseball superstar Mike Trout's and he has a few big-ticket gold coins...and you're a dealer who has a coin collector of hundreds of hard-to-sell stuff....no law against marketing it all as Mike Trout's (or Tom Cruise or anybody else famous) stuff.  At least not that I know of.

Of course, you better make sure the famous person has tight lips. 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Just picked up a 2005 Philip H. Morse Catalog focused on Saints.  Probably duplicative with other HA stuff but for $20 not a bad purchase.

[DWLange]

you think maybe Kossoff and Kreisberg just sold someone else's hard-to-sell small denomination inventory alongside the few hundred (or fewer) Menjou gold coins ?

The greater part of the 1950 "Menjou" sale was consigned by Cincinnati insurance executive Charles M. Williams, who didn't want his name used. The Menjou name was pasted onto several additional catalogs during the 1950s whenever a few of his coins were included.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/19/2022 at 4:34 PM, DWLange said:

you think maybe Kossoff and Kreisberg just sold someone else's hard-to-sell small denomination inventory alongside the few hundred (or fewer) Menjou gold coins ?

The greater part of the 1950 "Menjou" sale was consigned by Cincinnati insurance executive Charles M. Williams, who didn't want his name used. The Menjou name was pasted onto several additional catalogs during the 1950s whenever a few of his coins were included.

That's interesting and I do recall the name Charles Williams and Cincinnati in my readings.  But can't recall a direct link to Menjou -- thanks, Dave !! 

[GoldFinger1969]

Thaine B. Price Catalog:  Wow, I got a special surprise when I opened up the softcover auction booklet (I already had the hardcover). 

I found a personal note from David Akers on his own stationary addressed to the collector whom he sent the softcover version to. 

[RWB]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:34 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thaine B. Price Catalog:  Wow, I got a special surprise when I opened up the softcover auction booklet (I already had the hardcover). 

I found a personal note from David Akers on his own stationary addressed to the collector whom he sent the softcover version to. 

Nice bonus! Does he reveal any secrets?

RE: Kosoff. Just another reason for him to burn his papers....which only screws up things from modern collectors -- such as the origin of the "Menjou" auctions.

(Mr. Lange -- Is there a single-source compilation of the kind of information you mentioned? would be nice to have all of this collected into one "master" document.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2022 at 1:48 PM, RWB said:

Nice bonus! Does he reveal any secrets?

No, pretty generic....it's on miniature Post-It like stationary for David Akers, Inc....someone emailed him (not sure when !) with their collecting interests.  Akers says he doesn't have another sale scheduled at the present time (he had just done the Price Auction) but that he's sending him something that he did in 1998 (the Price Collection catalog) containing the series he collects (could be Saints, Indian Heads, or Barber Halfs).  Says to accept them with his compliments.  Regards, DA.

No hard sales approach at all.  

Light-years more info in this catalog compared to the 1950 Menjou, and I'll even bet it beats the top coin commentaries for Eliasberg.  Still not thrilled with the photos/pics, they look a combination of photo and artwork, I like real pictures with light shining off them but that's just me.  Small color photos at beginning, larger B&W with the commentaries.

[RWB]

It was once common for auction companies to take nice coin photos on B&W or color film, then print life-size illustrations in their catalogs. After the sale the negatives/slides were filed, forgotten and thrown out. All we have today are the low quality printed catalogs. Imagine the information lost (and the potential revenue).

Edited March 22, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2022 at 2:37 PM, RWB said:

It was once common for auction companies to take nice coin photos on B&W or color film, then print life-size illustrations in their catalogs. After the sale the negatives/slides were filed, forgotten and thrown out. All we have today are the low quality printed catalogs. Imagine the information lost (and the potential revenue).

The color photos on the first few pages appear to all be life-size color.  Some of the Indian Heads are smaller than the Saints and Barbers.

With the commentaries, the more expensive coins are blown-up and sometime are 2-3x actual size.  At the end of the book the few "trophy" coins (like the 1927-D) are each given 3/4 page by themselves solo without any text.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2022 at 2:37 PM, RWB said:

It was once common for auction companies to take nice coin photos on B&W or color film, then print life-size illustrations in their catalogs. After the sale the negatives/slides were filed, forgotten and thrown out. All we have today are the low quality printed catalogs. Imagine the information lost (and the potential revenue).

Menjou had pics only for the more expensive coins and these are life-size and not that detailed (no blow-ups).

You think if we had larger pictures of the coins from decades ago we'd have better markings and identifiers on the individual coins to make sure we could track their lineage ?  Can't tell that I guess from the smaller pics (when taken) in these earlier catalogs. 

[RWB]

Yep...and we've lost an important resource for research and law enforcement recovery of stolen coins with known auction backgrounds.

[DWLange]

Yep...and we've lost an important resource for research and law enforcement recovery of stolen coins with known auction backgrounds.

One of the more challenging tasks I've undertaken at NGC was proving that the 1854-S half eagle which surfaced a few years ago was not the stolen DuPont specimen. The auction catalog from its last public sale in 1962 was all but useless, but a slim prospectus for that sale which I'd purchased a few years earlier from the ANA's annual book sale in Colorado Springs provided sharper images that made our case. That 25-cent purchase paid for itself many times over...

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2022 at 4:22 PM, DWLange said:

One of the more challenging tasks I've undertaken at NGC was proving that the 1854-S half eagle which surfaced a few years ago was not the stolen DuPont specimen. 

I just read about that somewhere, can't remember where.  I think there was a recent auction or I read about an auction in the past that the DuPont Family/heirs said they had no claim on a coin that was alleged to be the same one (not sure why, maybe they got the insurance proceeds) ?  Can't remember where I saw that....

On 3/22/2022 at 4:22 PM, DWLange said:

The auction catalog from its last public sale in 1962 was all but useless, but a slim prospectus for that sale which I'd purchased a few years earlier from the ANA's annual book sale in Colorado Springs provided sharper images that made our case. That 25-cent purchase paid for itself many times over...

Nice job, Dave !! 

Gotta find out where I read about that coin, the DuPoints, and a sale where they disclaimed any legal claim.  

Edited March 22, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Apparently, the DuPoint 1854-S is still missing decades later:

https://www.greysheet.com/news/story/new-discovery-of-an-1854-s-half-eagle-making-headlines-waves

[VKurtB]

On 3/18/2022 at 3:41 PM, DWLange said:

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. Though the actor did have some coins, Abe Kosoff simply used his name with permission to promote the sale. Ol' Abe wasn't adverse to bending the truth a bit, but the same was true of most of his contemporaries.

Bending the truth? In numismatics? You don’t say! Gambling in Casablanca? Rick, I’m shocked!

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:41 PM, DWLange said:

Though the actor did have some coins, Abe Kosoff simply used his name with permission to promote the sale. 

Makes sense, because my readings of Menjou seem to indicate he was more interested in preserving his wealth than collecting coins.  He feared a dollar collapse and/or hyperinflation.  The spurt in inflation after WW II had to have made him more nervous.

I read that he had 250 of the 1907 High Reliefs, which is unreal.  Not sure how we verify something like that.  Could be his total number of Saints, I don't know.  Dealers who sold the remains of his estate in the early-1970's would probably know.

As opposed to Menjou, coins affiliated with actor Buddy Epsen seem to be more likely to have been his as he was apparently an avid and active coin collector.

Edited March 22, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2022 at 4:17 PM, RWB said:

Yep...and we've lost an important resource for research and law enforcement recovery of stolen coins with known auction backgrounds.

Didn't collectors by the 1950's realize that large COLOR photos -- including close-ups -- were important for catalogs, records to ID specific coins, etc. ?

If a coin had a tiny die crack or a blemish near a ray or a letter, wouldn't you want a close-up of it to prove it down the line ?

I believe jewelry catalogs featured closeups and that was just to show appearance, nobody could see flaws in a diamond from photos.

[RWB]

No. Auction buyers always examined the coins in person or with an agent. Many of the auction companies used fuzzy grading, misleading terminology, etc. I recall returning a lot of lots from older Kagan sales because of gross overgrading or incorrect descriptions or cleaning. Jim Ruddy's "grading" was an inside joke and Bowers put in a lot of effort to correct that. The very best consistent mail order coin quality came from Bowers when he ran Hathaway and Bowers. I never bought a coin there that was anything but excellent and on-the-nose for grade. When I had some graded years later, the Bowers "choice and gem" coins never came back less than 67-68 or better.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:18 PM, RWB said:

When I had some graded years later, the Bowers "choice and gem" coins never came back less than 67-68 or better.

Wow....yeah, I think Bowers' name and reputation gave alot of credibility to some firms over the decades.