Auction Catalogs 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2022 at 1:48 PM, RWB said:

Nice bonus! Does he reveal any secrets?

I checked the hardcover and there was a letter saying that the Price Catalog was being sent to this individual because they bought the first 2 of the Jay Pittman Auction Catalogs.  I guess Akers did that one, too.

[RWB]

When I bought from Bowers & Ruddy, I could always tell who selected the coins - and almost everything Ruddy sent got returned; cleaned, rim damage, low-end, etc.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/23/2022 at 12:42 PM, RWB said:

When I bought from Bowers & Ruddy, I could always tell who selected the coins - and almost everything Ruddy sent got returned; cleaned, rim damage, low-end, etc.

I would guess Bowers was the numismatist and Ruddy the business operations brains. 

[RWB]

I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing that kind of a responsibility breakdown. The coins I received were easily separated by "picker." The Bower & Merena setup might have been more like you mention.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/23/2022 at 3:01 PM, RWB said:

I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing that kind of a responsibility breakdown. The coins I received were easily separated by "picker." The Bower & Merena setup might have been more like you mention.

Bowers has bounced around alot.....belonged to a lot of firms.  Stacks-Bowers is like his 5th or 6th firm.

[RWB]

He once held a million shares of PCGS parent company.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/23/2022 at 4:13 PM, RWB said:

He once held a million shares of PCGS parent company.

I hope he held it .....Mets Owner Steve Cohen and another firm bought it out for a nice premium, I forget the price, but something like $70 a share.  That would mean he could have owned close to 10% of the company at one time, though I would wager he sold off shares over time or was diluted.

Edited March 24, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

They had a negative 1:10 split and Bowers got out soon after. The company value was low which was the reason for the split. However, Bowers evidently got a lot out of the Stack's deal, but I have nothing definite. (The PCGS info came from SEC filings.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/23/2022 at 8:12 PM, RWB said:

They had a negative 1:10 split and Bowers got out soon after. The company value was low which was the reason for the split. However, Bowers evidently got a lot out of the Stack's deal, but I have nothing definite. (The PCGS info came from SEC filings.)

Thanks, missed that....I was suprised by the deal, they got bought out at like 5-10x the price of 6-9 months earlier.

We talked about it here, it was mostly for the collectibles and NFT business which quite frankly I think is bubbleish.  But maybe they think coins/currency will be a slow, steady grower. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting Fact:  Dr. Thaine Price is still alive and still registered as a cardiologist in California !  Might buy some coins from him but not sure about using him as my cardio go-to guy since he's going on 96 years old ! 

[GoldFinger1969]

Virgil Brand's collection was sold by Sotheby's, not a coin specialist ?  Wow....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175195942383?hash=item28ca7dedef:g:JUsAAOSwwOJiK59v

[Conder101]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Apparently, the DuPoint 1854-S is still missing decades later:

Yes, the DuPont coin has never resurfaced.  There is still hope though.  Several of the major rarities from the robbery have turned up over the years.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 8:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Didn't collectors by the 1950's realize that large COLOR photos -- including close-ups -- were important for catalogs, records to ID specific coins, etc. ?

Sure but color images in catalogs were very costly at the time.  Even B&W images could be costly which is hy as you go further back in catalogs you see fewer and fewer images and then only of the most important pieces. Most of the B&W images would be halftones. Early plated catalogs would have single inlaid photo prints of important coins and mostly made from life size contact prints.

[zadok]

On 3/24/2022 at 4:28 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Virgil Brand's collection was sold by Sotheby's, not a coin specialist ?  Wow....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175195942383?hash=item28ca7dedef:g:JUsAAOSwwOJiK59v

...the brand coin collection was dispersed n auctioned off by several different auction houses over several decades...the sothebys auction was just a very small part of the collection....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/24/2022 at 7:53 PM, Conder101 said:

Yes, the DuPont coin has never resurfaced.  There is still hope though.  Several of the major rarities from the robbery have turned up over the years.

Sadly, if it hasn't resurfaced by now, you have to think some dirtbag melted it down and sold it for the gold content. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/18/2022 at 4:41 PM, DWLange said:

Just a bit of trivia---very few of the coins in the so-called Menjou Sale actually belonged to Adolphe Menjou. Though the actor did have some coins, Abe Kosoff simply used his name with permission to promote the sale. Ol' Abe wasn't adverse to bending the truth a bit, but the same was true of most of his contemporaries.

Dave, it still goes on to an extent though apparently smaller.

While doing some research, I noticed that the late David Akers was used as a consultant/cataloguer on the 2012 Duckor Saint-Gaudens sale by Heritage.  They mentioned that the 1927-D owned by Duckor was of a different type (and higher grade, too) than the one he earlier sold.

But that coin was sold in the 1998 Thaine B. Price Saint sale.  And the only reason Heritage knew that was because David Akers and his firm cataloged and sold those coins.  Otherwise, nobody -- not Heritage and certainly not me -- would know that a few coins in the Price sale didn't belong to him.

Rather than piggy-back on the Price sale like the small denomination coins piggy-backed on Menjou's name, I think it was just to be able to say that the Price sale would include a trophy coin like a 1927-D (which Price apparently never owned).  While today you can sell a trophy coin individually quite easily via the Internet or through the many physical auctions we see taking place, back in 1998 the internet wasn't yet established and I don't believe that all the physical auctions we see today (HA, GC, Stacks, etc) were there in the quantity they are today.

So Duckor got to sell his 1927-D at a prestigious Saint sale and Price and Akers got to mention that a 1927-D would be auctioned off.  Win-Win for both sides. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Phillip H. Morse Collection:  Got the Platinum Night November 2005 Heritage catalog of his collection of Indian Head Eagles and Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles which was the basis for the Morse coinage book which became the basis for RWB's Duckor-Morse Saints Book. 

Not as much useful information as the 2012 Duckor catalog, but I actually think the photos are better (better light angling, IMO) and it was not that expensive a catalog so I pounced.

[GoldFinger1969]

BTW, that auction catalog has a nice glossy front-and-back cover.  It was $50 originally, I picked it up for about $12 in very good condition.

[World Colonial]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Biggest Sellers & Surprises, 1950 Menjou Auction:

1802 Half Dime...at the time, they said no coins better than FINE were found and one in 1907 got $500.  But this coin was estimated $ $750 and went for $425.  According to the book, only 16 known (still the case ?).

 I commented earlier but missed this post.  This is quite interesting.  My understanding is that someone (I think the author of the die variety reference) identified 35-40 specific coins, in 1935 or near it.  Not sure how this reconciles to the comments in this catalog.

On 3/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1894-S Dime: 24 minted, only 7 said to exist at the time (still the case ?).  This coin was supposedly a proof.  Estimate @ $2,500 but went for $1,850.

Nine known to my recollection.

On 3/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1873-CC Dime:  One of the FEW coins that went above the estimate...and boy did it !!  Estimate was $1,000 it went for $3,650.  Without arrows, described as a superb gem on par with the 1804 Dollar or 1913 Nickel.

It's unique as a sub-type.  (There is also a "with arrows" version which is scarce but not rare.)

On 3/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1876-CC 20 cent piece (never even knew they made those !!)....estimated for $2,000 but went for $1,325.  10 specimens believed at the time.

15-20 now known to my recollection.  It's a coin whose relative prominence seems to have declined substantially since I started collecting in 1975, probably due to the middle-of-the-road preference for the denomination and lower emphasis on absolute rarity.

On 3/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1838 New Orleans Half Dollar:  Beistle (1929) said 3 pieces; K&K said 6-7.  One sold at WGC for $1,600, Atwater $2,200, and Neil estimate was $3,000...this one ended up going for $1,650 despite estimate of $3,000.

Proof only date with a recorded mintage of 20.  Nine known to my recollection.  It's actually more common than any other Capped Bust half proof to my knowledge but has a much higher prominence as a proof only coin.

On 3/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1853 Half Dollar: The Standard Catalogue had no value for this rare coin so no estimate...went for $890.  The WGC, Atwater, Neil, Dunham, Geis, Higgy, Olden, and Stickney collections didn't have one.

This has to be the without "arrows and rays" sub-type.  The 53-O has four now known to my recollection.

On 3/11/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Panama Pacific Set:  $1,350 estimate, $1,115 actual sale price.

$4 Gold Stella:  $550 estimate, $500 actual price.   Latin Monetary Standard creation coin.

The worst value from your list.  Assuming it's the 1879 Flowing Hair, $4 since before I became a collector must be due to inclusion in the Red Book and from it, in type sets.  I consider it one of the most overrated coins in all of US numismatics.  It's a common pattern.

Edited January 5, 2023 by World Colonial

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:28 PM, World Colonial said:

 I commented earlier but missed this post.  This is quite interesting.  My understanding is that someone (I think the author of the die variety reference) identified 35-40 specific coins, in 1935 or near it.  Not sure how this reconciles to the comments in this catalog.

I'll check my catalog and if there's more "meat" I left out, post it verbatim here.

Off the top of your head....all those quotes and sales prices we both referenced...that was from 1950....where would most of them be today ?  10-fold increase.....100-fold increase ?

[World Colonial]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:43 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll check my catalog and if there's more "meat" I left out, post it verbatim here.

Off the top of your head....all those quotes and sales prices we both referenced...that was from 1950....where would most of them be today ?  10-fold increase.....100-fold increase ?

It depends upon the TPG grade, as usual.  Virtually all over a 100X increase.   If the grade is high enough, over 1000X.  Only exceptions I can think of offhand are the Pan-Pac set and 1802 half dime.

My recollection on the 1853 half might be wrong too.  I recall one of these has four known, but I might have stated the wrong one.

[zadok]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:30 AM, World Colonial said:

It depends upon the TPG grade, as usual.  Virtually all over a 100X increase.   If the grade is high enough, over 1000X.  Only exceptions I can think of offhand are the Pan-Pac set and 1802 half dime.

My recollection on the 1853 half might be wrong too.  I recall one of these has four known, but I might have stated the wrong one.

...no u r correct, its the 1853-0 NA liberty seated half, 4 known...i once owned this coin, its now a 6 figure coin....

[zadok]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:43 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll check my catalog and if there's more "meat" I left out, post it verbatim here.

Off the top of your head....all those quotes and sales prices we both referenced...that was from 1950....where would most of them be today ?  10-fold increase.....100-fold increase ?

...all of the coins on ur list r currently 5-6 figure coins a couple creeping into 7 figure territory...the 1873-CC NA dime will be sold at auction later this month, one of the 1802 half dimes just sold in the past couple months....

[World Colonial]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:12 AM, zadok said:

...all of the coins on ur list r currently 5-6 figure coins a couple creeping into 7 figure territory...the 1873-CC NA dime will be sold at auction later this month, one of the 1802 half dimes just sold in the past couple months....

The grades weren't stated, so without this info, probably the Liberty Head gold, 1819 half eagle, and 1802 half dime are five figures.

Pretty sure all the others are easily six figures, or more.

1815 half eagle almost certainly over $1MM and same for 1829.  The other three maybe if MS-65 or better.  I haven't checked recently.

[zadok]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:24 AM, World Colonial said:

The grades weren't stated, so without this info, probably the Liberty Head gold, 1819 half eagle, and 1802 half dime are five figures.

Pretty sure all the others are easily six figures, or more.

1815 half eagle almost certainly over $1MM and same for 1829.  The other three maybe if MS-65 or better.  I haven't checked recently.

...yep stratosphere prices now...even a low low grade damaged 1802 half dime 5 figures....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:24 AM, World Colonial said:

The grades weren't stated, so without this info, probably the Liberty Head gold, 1819 half eagle, and 1802 half dime are five figures.

1950 auction.....36 years before the TPGs started.

[GoldFinger1969]

1802 Half Dime Listing In 1950 Menjou Catalog:  "The Excessively Rare 1902 Half Dime....The 1802 half dime is one of the prizes of American Numismatics.  There are said to be only 16 pieces known and many leading collections appear on the market lacking this coin.  As early as 1907 a specimen in very fine condition brought over $700.00 and an equally fine coin is still difficult to obtain.  In fact, the Standard Catalogue does not value the type for better than fine in which condition it is listed at $500.00.  This particular specimen may easily be called very fine; the date, stars and lettering are all perfectly clear with the obverse a bit stronger than the reverse.  The popularity of this coin should send it over"

He meant over the $750 price I presume.  In fact, the Estimate listed was $750 but the Selling Price came in at $425.

I noticed that lots of coins, except for a few higher-priced coins and gold rarities, sold for LESS than the estimated price (not surprising, sellers are prone to give high estimates).  I didn't tabulate, but actual Selling Prices above the Estimates were definitely fewer than vice-versa.

Edited January 5, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:04 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I noticed that lots of coins, except for a few higher-priced coins and gold rarities, sold for LESS than the estimated price (not surprising, sellers are prone to give high estimates).  I didn't tabulate, but actual Selling Prices above the Estimates were definitely fewer than vice-versa.

I believe most if not all of the coins you specifically listed most collectors (including you) will consider "rare" and if not, certainly "scarce".

It's an inference only but maybe as opposed to now and recently where estimates are intentionally low, it was set too high.  Or another reason is that they just didn't know due to lack of data and a less predictable sales history.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/5/2023 at 1:00 PM, World Colonial said:

I believe most if not all of the coins you specifically listed most collectors (including you) will consider "rare" and if not, certainly "scarce". It's an inference only but maybe as opposed to now and recently where estimates are intentionally low, it was set too high.  Or another reason is that they just didn't know due to lack of data and a less predictable sales history.

If you haven't seen this catalog it's about 125 pages long.  Sometimes a page has 2-4 items listed when there is a pricey coin with a description of a few paragraphs....other times, it's just 20-25 rows of inexpensive small denomination coins costing about $10-$15 on average.

All stuff I never had interest in :  Flying Eagle Cents.....Gold Dollars....Carson City dimes....etc...etc...etc.  As Roger and others said, in retrospect, it's clear that the bulk or most of this stuff was owned by others who "piggy-backed" on the Menjou name to more easily sell their coins.

The total raised was just under $135,000....I'll guestimate about 1,500 to 2,000 individual items auctioned off.

Edited January 5, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 1/5/2023 at 3:23 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you haven't seen this catalog it's about 125 pages long.  Sometimes a page has 2-4 items listed when there is a pricey coin with a description of a few paragraphs....other times, it's just 20-25 rows of inexpensive small denomination coins costing about $10-$15 on average.

The total raised was just under $135,000....I'll guestimate about 1,500 to 2,000 individual items auctioned off.

No, I have not seen it.

Hardly any catalogue of US coinage interests me anymore.  Almost exclusively repetitive sales of coins I see all the time or regularly but even if actually scarce, often enough.  Practically every US coin by now is in the Heritage archives, just not in a specific grade or maybe some specialization.

The US coinage of most interest to me is almost never discussed on coin forums: Territorial gold, the few CSA, and a relatively low number of colonial.  I'm interested in discussing other collector's interests here, but not taking any of my time to read up on it.

The primary interest I'd have in this type of catalogue is due to the reason I replied to your post yesterday (historical prices) but that's more academic to me than of any practical use.

[zadok]

On 1/5/2023 at 1:00 PM, World Colonial said:

I believe most if not all of the coins you specifically listed most collectors (including you) will consider "rare" and if not, certainly "scarce".

It's an inference only but maybe as opposed to now and recently where estimates are intentionally low, it was set too high.  Or another reason is that they just didn't know due to lack of data and a less predictable sales history.

...correct on both counts...auction firms intentionally listed estimates high in the pre-tpg sales to attempt to establish prices for coins they were selling, whereas now they intentionally list estimates low so as to be able to say "look how good we are, we realized 180% of pre-auction estimates..." having said that most of the better auction firms do provide recent auction results of the coins they r selling, but those results r readily available now, whereas in the earlier auctions results were not as readily available....