CC Morgan GSA hoard overrated? 0

[World Colonial]

On 10/29/2020 at 12:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The GSA Morgans were relatively less so more people could own them but you probably had many people who didn't own any other coins who sent in for a GSA.  Many I suspect knew about the 1904-O riches a decade earlier.

In the 1970's and 1980's, there were telemarketing firms selling 'rare" US coins (generic pre1-933 gold, Morgan and Peace dollars by the roll) as "investments" to non-collectors.  One was the publisher of the "newsletter" Capital Gains which advertised this type of coinage in every issue at inflated prices.  The "newsletter" was ok (very repetitive) but I never bought anything from them. 

I don't know if this type of sales approach is used today.  Today, it's my inference that bullion dealers like APMEX and eBay have displaced them.  Also, both now and then, that most of the more common Morgan (and Peace) dollars are owned primarily for financial reasons, probably by non-collectors buying it as a substitute for bullion.

[GoldFinger1969]

As I recall, the dealers liked to advertise in specialty publications that had folks with some discretionary funds and who were somewhat cognizant of finance, economics, and precious metals (the 1970's being the decade of inflation).

Readers Digest and other publications used to have them all the time.

[GoldFinger1969]

I wonder how much of the romance and desire to own Carson City Morgans is a result of all the Westerns on TV in the 1950's and 1960's that mentioned the place (i.e., Bonanza).

[GoldFinger1969]

Does anybody have any more thoughts on the weakness in GSA pricing the last 5 years or so ?  

Since silver is up over that time, and since GSA's and most Morgans priced similarly don't trade off minor silver price moves.....it would appear that, barring stories of floods of older folks or their kids selling these off, that the price drop is just mimicking the general weakness of non-PM U.S. coins since about 2015 or so.

Edited March 21, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Some thoughts about popularity of Carson Mint coins.

• It was a small mint within a larger silver-rush area.
• It produced enough coins over 20+ years to have examples readily available, but not in great excess as with New Orleans or San Francisco.
• It was not a completely obscure, special purpose mint like Dahlonega or Charlotte, or none that vanished.
• It was/is perceived as part of the "wild west" although the village was a pretty tame place compared to some of the towns along the cattle trails.
• A nice type coin can be bought for only a small premium above an S, P or NO, especially in Morgan dollars.
• The GSA hoard brought considerable publicity to the Carson Mint and that has become a self-fulfilling mantra.

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by RWB

[Zebo]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Does anybody have any more thoughts on the weakness in GSA pricing the last 5 years or so ?  

Since silver is up over that time, and since GSA's and most Morgans priced similarly don't trade off minor silver price moves.....it would appear that, barring stories of floods of older folks or their kids selling these off, that the price drop is just mimicking the general weakness of non-PM U.S. coins since about 2015 or so.

Someone dumped a very large amount of GSA CCs on the market a few years ago. It really brought down the prices of them - especially the common ones such as the 1882,1883,1884s. I was a collector of them and had very nice examples of all - except the one that was selling for 11K at the time. I ended up selling most of the collection. At items, I wish I kept it. 

[numisport]

It's my opinion that many graded GSA's are over graded just because they are original lustrous coins as stated earlier. Majority of these coins are scraped and hacked to the point for me they have lost the eye appeal that many Morgans have in MS 65 grade. I've seen some nice CC's that are not in GSA holders that are fine to me but these things were handled poorly to say the least. The bags must have been scraped, dropped, scooped, and thrown about time and time again until they just no longer look acceptable. Yes I'll find a nice prooflike example of an 84-CC now that prices are low.

[RWB]

28 minutes ago, numisport said:

The bags must have been scraped, dropped, scooped, and thrown about time and time again until they just no longer look acceptable. Yes I'll find a nice prooflike example of an 84-CC now that prices are low.

The Carson bags were moved from one place to another several times, but they were also shifted from vault-to-vault within Mint and Treasury facilities. it is likely this latter, bag by bag handling that had the greatest effect on surface scrapes, etc. They ended up at main Treasury in Washington, DC.

[GoldFinger1969]

Some of the CC's and non-CC's are heavily bagmarked, but others are pretty mark-free.  You just have to be patient and look around.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Someone dumped a very large amount of GSA CCs on the market a few years ago. It really brought down the prices of them - especially the common ones such as the 1882,1883,1884s. 

Thanks Z....I didn't know that or hear about it.  Was this something that was passed around or were there actually articles in the coin hobby talking about the glut at that time ?

I guess it's always possible that if 1 or 2 large dealers with inventory decide to close up shop that they could dump dozens or hundreds of a particular type of coin all at once.

[Hoghead515]

These coins are very easy to come by for the big players. People like me it takes 2 years to save up for one. I agree there are plenty out there. But for a poor man that only makes around 300 dollars a week and got 400 worth of bills it makes it a little harder. And everything you own tearing up and breaking down. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Hoghead515

[GoldFinger1969]

4 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

These coins are very easy to come by for the big players. People like me it takes 2 years to save up for one. 

   That's what makes it so enjoyable.  BTW, did you get the coin yet, Hog ?  Or is it being shipped ?

[Hoghead515]

7 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

   That's what makes it so enjoyable.  BTW, did you get the coin yet, Hog ?  Or is it being shipped ?

Already got it in hand. It came in yesterday. Those pictures I showed were ones I took of it. 

[GoldFinger1969]

I read somewhere that there are maybe 500 "serious" Saint-Gaudens collectors who are trying to get complete sets, registry players, etc.  And another 25,000 or so who are Type Collectors (like me) who buy here-and-there various dates and mintmarks and occasional bullion substitutes.  Beyond that, you have the folks buying these as "investments" from the TV infomercials, cold callers, etc.

With Morgans costing about 1/10th or 1/20th as much on average, you figure there are way more collectors (tens of thousands ?) and hundreds of thousands of Type Collectors, no ?  After that, it's the investor class again trying to absorb all the millions released in the last 60 years or so.

For you dealers out there.....you know your clients.....what would you say the ratio of serious Saint collectors vs. serious Morgan collectors is ?  And maybe the larger group of Saint type collectors vs. Morgan type collectors ?

Any guestimates ?

[zadok]

4 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I read somewhere that there are maybe 500 "serious" Saint-Gaudens collectors who are trying to get complete sets, registry players, etc.  And another 25,000 or so who are Type Collectors (like me) who buy here-and-there various dates and mintmarks and occasional bullion substitutes.  Beyond that, you have the folks buying these as "investments" from the TV infomercials, cold callers, etc.

With Morgans costing about 1/10th or 1/20th as much on average, you figure there are way more collectors (tens of thousands ?) and hundreds of thousands of Type Collectors, no ?  After that, it's the investor class again trying to absorb all the millions released in the last 60 years or so.

For you dealers out there.....you know your clients.....what would you say the ratio of serious Saint collectors vs. serious Morgan collectors is ?  And maybe the larger group of Saint type collectors vs. Morgan type collectors ?

Any guestimates ?

after serious consideration...n expenditure of a serious amount of research, i can seriously say that the ratios u requested would be X/Y n  X+1/Y+1, i seriously hope this helps....

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, zadok said:

after serious consideration...n expenditure of a serious amount of research, i can seriously say that the ratios u requested would be X/Y n  X+1/Y+1, i seriously hope this helps....

Yup, almost as much as Steven Koren's answer to George Costanza's "who's your favorite chess player" question for the Susan Ross Scholarship:

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

9 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yup, almost as much as Steven Koren's answer to George Costanza's "who's your favorite chess player" question for the Susan Ross Scholarship:

Or George's favorite poet Flavum

[Rollo Tomassi]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:19 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wonder how much of the romance and desire to own Carson City Morgans is a result of all the Westerns on TV in the 1950's and 1960's that mentioned the place (i.e., Bonanza).

I'd say a lot.   That era spawned a whole raft of new guns that looked like "cowboy" guns.

Same with the coins.   CARSON CITY.....yow!    OLD WEST!    

Never got enamored with CC Morgans.  I just got the 1870-CC dollar with a STICKER !!   heh  

 

I do have ONE CC Morgan.  Got it for minimal bagmarks.   

[Hoghead515]

1 hour ago, Rollo Tomassi said:

I'd say a lot.   That era spawned a whole raft of new guns that looked like "cowboy" guns.

Same with the coins.   CARSON CITY.....yow!    OLD WEST!    

Never got enamored with CC Morgans.  I just got the 1870-CC dollar with a STICKER !!   heh  

 

I do have ONE CC Morgan.  Got it for minimal bagmarks.   

Those are some beautiful coins. Nice find. I love those CCs. In any flavor. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/22/2021 at 5:45 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Or George's favorite poet Flavum

Wait, I thought that was Susan's birth control method ? 

[jrog100]

CC GSA's are a truly underrated coin.  They've got a great history and are higly collectable and sought after.  I recommend that collectors buy all they can at the right price because they will always go up in value as long as you get the CC version of the GSA.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/4/2024 at 8:59 PM, jrog100 said:

CC GSA's are a truly underrated coin.  They've got a great history and are higly collectable and sought after.  I recommend that collectors buy all they can at the right price because they will always go up in value as long as you get the CC version of the GSA.

I like most of your part except the part about "they will always go up in value."   

I think they likely WILL over time....but there are so many of these (even the CC's) that any influx of supply can drop the prices.  

Since we already had a bubble in GSAs and MSDs, you're certainly buying cheaper today.  But one should like the coin and the story that goes with it rather than expectations of profit$$$. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:59 PM, jrog100 said:

CC GSA's are a truly underrated coin.  They've got a great history and are higly collectable and sought after.  I recommend that collectors buy all they can at the right price because they will always go up in value as long as you get the CC version of the GSA.

“always go up in value”

Umm, nope. 

[powermad5000]

I know this is an old post, but I say these GSA Morgans are highly overrated. The coin is the coin is the coin. These GSA Morgans were not specially struck nor exactly specially handled other than being put into a special holder. So in essence, it is still a Morgan struck normally with the normal issues presented post striking. If there is an 1884 CC GSA Morgan graded MS 65 by NGC and selling for $650 and there is an 1884 CC Morgan graded MS 65 by NGC in their standard slab which is selling for $525 and they both have the same eye appeal, why would I pay extra for the big holder? For some special provenance? Both are still a CC. That is the provenance. I also have seen some of the GSA's with a lot of chatter on the cheek and face and light marking on the reverse, and I have seen slabbed Morgans in high grades with no marks so I cannot accept the argument that a GSA Morgan has better surfaces versus a non GSA.

I will continue to buy the coin, not the holder. I don't plan to ever buy one of these GSA Morgans.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

....  But one should like the coin and the story that goes with it rather than expectations of profit$$$. 

🐓:  Hey, Q!  The old CC Morgan GSA hoard was revived just a few days ago after a 3-year drought!  

Q.A.:  By a Newbie, no doubt. We're In Like Flint.  This thread ranks as one of the  Greatest Of All Time!  Check out all the old-timers!  It's a virtual Who's Who on the NGC CHAT Boards...

Getting Back on Track, I agree with GF1969's assertion completely.  My approach was completely by happenstance.  If I didn't elect to have the old hip replacement redone, I wouldn't have been bed-bound and if I weren't confined to bed, it never would have occurred to me to surf the web -- and develop a curiosity over the coins I once had 50 years ago. I stumbled over a gold Rooster and the rest, as they say, is history. Plenty of back-story.  Here's a provocative assertion: how well you proceed on your Set Registry depends on the search engine you use. [If you use DuckDuckGo to look for coins overseas, you're a dead duck.] You have to be daring, creative, and resourceful. Not sure if this is applicable to the GSA Hoard but surely there must be a go-to site for someone specializing in them.  And as far as profits go, you have to be IN it to WIN it.  This is not a hit-and-run hobby. I suppose I am luckier than most because I was retired, had the time, resources, inclination -- and daring, to throw all caution to the wind. Self-taught. Spot gold was nowhere near what it was when I dove back into collecting 5 years ago.

I don't know if the GSA CC MORGAN HOARD will go up down or sideways, but I believe it safe to say certain subsets of raw coins will diminish over time while certifications will increase as time goes by. The number of GSA CC's are known.  The will not increase in number.  I assume most are spoken for but what do I know. Sometimes it is good to go back and reconsider your position  as formerly recorded with recent events.

 

[VKurtB]

About 2/3 of my GSA Morgans date back to the original issue. Another 1/3 date back to an Ephrata, PA auction in the mid-1990’s where I bought them for about $50 a pop. I think one was $55 or $60, but most were $50. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/8/2024 at 5:14 PM, powermad5000 said:

I know this is an old post, but I say these GSA Morgans are highly overrated.

There's no doubt a dealer can charge more for 2 exactly the same coins if one is GSA.  Stories sell and even saying your coin was part of the Nixon Era 1970's GSA release....some people find valuable.

On 8/8/2024 at 5:14 PM, powermad5000 said:

If there is an 1884 CC GSA Morgan graded MS 65 by NGC and selling for $650 and there is an 1884 CC Morgan graded MS 65 by NGC in their standard slab which is selling for $525 and they both have the same eye appeal, why would I pay extra for the big holder?

Is that just numbers you created for illustrative purposes, or do such GSAs really trade about 20-25% more than a similarly-graded TPG ?

[powermad5000]

On 8/10/2024 at 9:22 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is that just numbers you created for illustrative purposes, or do such GSAs really trade about 20-25% more than a similarly-graded TPG ?

Illustrative. I do remember watching auctions years ago however where these would have probably been real numbers. People were going crazy over GSA Morgan auctions. I think that is part of what turned me off to it. Maybe I am blessed to not follow the masses and look for coins that are off the beaten path so to speak and acquire them for good prices because nobody is paying much attention to them.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/10/2024 at 3:49 PM, powermad5000 said:

Illustrative. I do remember watching auctions years ago however where these would have probably been real numbers. People were going crazy over GSA Morgan auctions. I think that is part of what turned me off to it. Maybe I am blessed to not follow the masses and look for coins that are off the beaten path so to speak and acquire them for good prices because nobody is paying much attention to them.

I think I have 1 GSA....I think it's ungraded....I have to tell you, graded or ungraded, especially if it's from the original 1970's release (not the 1980's)....with the Nixon Card and box....it's a nice little piece of Americana.