Lighting techniques for coin photography - updated 1 1

[brg5658]

16 hours ago, Insider said:

PS  I NEVER CLAIMED to take professional quality photographs of coins.  I have had three of my photographs on display in a Georgetown, DC Gallery in the 1980's.  That was before many folks with a digital camera CRUTCH were born.  The hundreds of images in my columns over the decades don't count as professional quality.

What makes you think a digital camera is a crutch?  It is anything but.  You have control over the same variables with a digital camera as you do with a film camera.  You actually have more variables to consider. 

Do you also consider a computer a crutch over the use of a typewriter? Because isn’t a typewriter a crutch over the use of a Linotype machine?  And is a Linotype machine a crutch over the use of a Gutenberg Press? 

Do you still use a Telegraph to send messages? Maybe you refrigerate your perishables with large ice blocks cut from the local lake? I presume you are a large consumer of candles as the daylight hours become fewer this time of year? 

Technology advancement isn’t a crutch. Living in the past in an attempt to prove you can live in the present is the crutch. 

[VKurtB]

10 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

What makes you think a digital camera is a crutch?  It is anything but.  You have control over the same variables with a digital camera as you do with a film camera.  You actually have more variables to consider. 

Do you also consider a computer a crutch over the use of a typewriter? Because isn’t a typewriter a crutch over the use of a Linotype machine?  And is a Linotype machine a crutch over the use of a Gutenberg Press? 

Do you still use a Telegraph to send messages? Maybe you refrigerate your perishables with large ice blocks cut from the local lake? I presume you are a large consumer of candles as the daylight hours become fewer this time of year? 

Technology advancement isn’t a crutch. Living in the past in an attempt to prove you can live in the present is the crutch. 

Well, to be fair, I have at least four generations of digital cameras, and the early ones were pretty miserable, and frankly, pretty "crutchy". Staying up to date in digital cameras takes some effort - far more effort than promoting what I call "paleograding" of coins. Yes, that's an intentionally provocative word, but I feel it fits the situation. There is a whole lot of "we used to do it better" going on here. I do with my photography. I don't have time or room for it when it comes to coin grading. "How we used to do it" in coin grading frankly makes me get the bored "yawnies". And that applies to both Roger and Skip, if I'm being honest.

[VKurtB]

By the way, I have been offline more often that usual lately. Did Roger ever get satisfactory answers about why Skip uses fluorescent light for coins, which virtually no one else anywhere does for any reason whatsoever?

[Insider]

42 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

Your replies make me laugh too, for a 75 year old keyboard warrior.  

I look forward to your professional quality full coin image Skip. Then we will expect such quality from all of your future challenge/quiz posts. 

Laughter is the best medicine!   

No, I will not leave my desk, "book" time or give a coin to them to be imaged (unless color or the entire coin is needed) for the reasons given several times previously. 

 

38 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Thank you much. We lost dad in August of 2017. He was 95. He wanted to live to see the eclipse. He missed by three days. His finest work was as a 16mm travel filmmaker.

Speaking of Minnesota ( @brg5658 ), he was among the first to open a color photo lab, made by Pako of Minneapolis, when Kodak lost monopoly power to develop color film.

Please tell us more!   

[RWB]

RE: ""How we used to do it" in coin grading frankly makes me get the bored "yawnies". And that applies to both Roger and Skip, if I'm being honest."

Hey ! I never claimed my posts would keep anyone awake, Yeah -- well--- they are pretty boring now that you mention it.

[RWB]

Back to the OP's topic...

Lighting for digital photography is nearly identical as that for film photography. The greatest differences are in light sensor technology. Film resolution is a combination of silver halide grain structure and migration; digital sensor resolution depends more on pixel packing, binning, time-response curves and multiple other variables. The result is film has a fixed resolution and a CCD or similar chip does not. One uncompressed 35mm digital image has a minimum data file of about 32 meg.

The lighting differences are more direct - digital technology inherently discards image data which results in reduced dynamic range. Film is entirely analog and maintains all data unless the user decides to alter the chemistry. Any curious about this latter need only refer to NASA where comparison of modern lunar orbiter images were compared with much older film images - the film showed far more  subtle detail than digital. I.e., film does not throw away data, digital does.

Many digital cameras can operate at 12- or 16-bit gray, and this helps. (Most actually use 12-bit gray per channel then down sample.) But, try working with 64-bit RGB if you want to have fun with desktop computing power. The practical solution is that digital lighting has to be lower contrast ("flatter") than film lighting.

[VKurtB]

25 minutes ago, Insider said:

Laughter is the best medicine!   

No, I will not leave my desk, "book" time or give a coin to them to be imaged (unless color or the entire coin is needed) for the reasons given several times previously. 

 

Please tell us more!   

My dad was one of the pioneers of both the independent color photo laboratory business, and later what became the One-Hour Photo craze. He and I went all over the country installing the things, made by Gretag AG of Regensdorf, Switzerland, out near Zurich's International Airport. The same company invented Eidophor, the very first stadium-sized TV system. It was rolled out at the 1976 Olympic Games in Montreal. It was those trips to the installation and service schools in Switzerland (where you could get gold when it wasn't yet legal here) that turned me on to the beauty and craftsmanship of Swiss coins, and virtually everything else Swiss. The company next door to Gretag at Regensdorf was a little company known for its stereo gear, especially tape recorders, named Revox. Maybe you heard of them.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

28 minutes ago, RWB said:

RE: ""How we used to do it" in coin grading frankly makes me get the bored "yawnies". And that applies to both Roger and Skip, if I'm being honest."

Hey ! I never claimed my posts would keep anyone awake, Yeah -- well--- they are pretty boring now that you mention it.

So did you ever get satisfactory answers about Skip's fluorescent lights? If nothing else, their adverse effect on color is bad enough for this guy to reject using them.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

36 minutes ago, RWB said:

Back to the OP's topic...

Lighting for digital photography is nearly identical as that for film photography. The greatest differences are in light sensor technology. Film resolution is a combination of silver halide grain structure and migration; digital sensor resolution depends more on pixel packing, binning, time-response curves and multiple other variables. The result is film has a fixed resolution and a CCD or similar chip does not. One uncompressed 35mm digital image has a minimum data file of about 32 meg.

The lighting differences are more direct - digital technology inherently discards image data which results in reduced dynamic range. Film is entirely analog and maintains all data unless the user decides to alter the chemistry. Any curious about this latter need only refer to NASA where comparison of modern lunar orbiter images were compared with much older film images - the film showed far more  subtle detail than digital. I.e., film does not throw away data, digital does.

Many digital cameras can operate at 12- or 16-bit gray, and this helps. (Most actually use 12-bit gray per channel then down sample.) But, try working with 64-bit RGB if you want to have fun with desktop computing power. The practical solution is that digital lighting has to be lower contrast ("flatter") than film lighting.

...and the software (CRUTCH) can be used to manipulate the final image.  Before digital, I found that the best images - prize wining images - could be done by a rookie (me)  by just running a bunch of film through one of my cameras (usually a motorized Nikon F-2AS).

[Insider]

39 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

So did you ever get satisfactory answers about Skip's fluorescent lights? If nothing else, their adverse effect on color is bad enough for this guy to reject using them.

99.8% of the images I take are done under florescent light.  It is not the best for photographs but it is best to show the coin's surface at higher power.

[Insider]

49 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

My dad was one of the pioneers of both the independent color photo laboratory business, and later what became the One-Hour Photo craze. He and I went all over the country installing the things, made by Gretag AG of Regensdorf, Switzerland, out near Zurich's International Airport. The same company invented Eidophor, the very first stadium-sized TV system. It was rolled out at the 1976 Olympic Games in Montreal. It was those trips to the installation and service schools in Switzerland (where you could get gold when it wasn't yet legal here) that turned me on to the beauty and craftsmanship of Swiss coins, and virtually everything else Swiss. The company next door to Gretag at Regensdorf was a little company known for its stereo gear, especially tape recorders, named Revox. Maybe you heard of them.

I like swiss watches and women.  

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, Insider said:

I like swiss watches and women.  

I've worn some of each.

[brg5658]

8 minutes ago, Insider said:

...and the software (CRUTCH) can be used to manipulate the final image.  Before digital, I found that the best images - prize wining images - could be done by a rookie (me)  by just running a bunch of film through one of my cameras (usually a motorized Nikon F-2AS).

So everything developed after you learned something is a crutch? That’s a delightfully cynical and sad outlook on life. 

By the way, I presume everything you are talking about is with reference to portrait photography or landscape photography.  Most of your advice has nothing to do with coin photography. 

[VKurtB]

3 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

So everything developed after you learned something is a crutch?

I'm sensing a pattern here. When will the lessons on how to correctly yell, "Hey you kids, get off my lawn" begin? I'm retiring soon and I have to keep my skillset current.

[RWB]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

So did you ever get satisfactory answers about Skip's fluorescent lights? If nothing else, their adverse effect on color is bad enough for this guy to reject using them.

He supplied the necessary information and that allowed me to test some things. I have not completed all tests. Results will be posted once everything is ready. I want to keep it short, non-technical and of practical value to members.

[VKurtB]

9 minutes ago, RWB said:

He supplied the necessary information and that allowed me to test some things. I have not completed all tests. Results will be posted once everything is ready. I want to keep it short, non-technical and of practical value to members.

Yes, probably a good idea. It seems a lot of people here prefer second grade vocabulary. I, however, like "big woids" when they convey the meaning better. It's why I like to hang out with the "Exhibitor Crowd" at ANA shows rather than the bourse. It's more intellectual than, "Muh. Me buy coin. Me buy shiny coin." Sorry, but I just prefer upscale vocabulary.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

47 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Yes, probably a good idea. It seems a lot of people here prefer second grade vocabulary. I, however, like "big woids" when they convey the meaning better. It's why I like to hang out with the "Exhibitor Crowd" at ANA shows rather than the bourse. It's more intellectual than, "Muh. Me buy coin. Me buy shiny coin." Sorry, but I just prefer upscale vocabulary.

Well.....do you want them ostentatious, imposing, sumptuous, sybaritic, impressive, or will basic polysyllabic do? We aim to please as Kim Jongu-un said to his uncle Jang Song-thaek, as 50 cal. machine guns warmed up nearby.

Edited October 16, 2020 by RWB

[Insider]

1 hour ago, brg5658 said:

So everything developed after you learned something is a crutch? That’s a delightfully cynical and sad outlook on life. 

By the way, I presume everything you are talking about is with reference to portrait photography or landscape photography.  Most of your advice has nothing to do with coin photography. 

I am constantly frustrated  by the way you can twist things in your own mind enough to attribute absolute nonsense to my comments with your "clairvoyant " umptions.  It has nothing to do with me or my realistic outlook on life.  I'm going to make this as simple as I can for you.  

I have noticed that many folks in the younger generations have lost the "edge."  Technology plus the dumbing-down of the American Education System is is just one cause.  The simple comprehension of the written word, even occurring on these forums by some members is an example.  Computers have taken the place of spelling and math.  The art of hand writing is mostly gone.  In emergencies, folks are unprepared.  Why store necessities when you can shop for them every day.  

With those examples, who would wish to live in a time before computers, cell phones, HDTV, digital cameras, huge tennis racquets and golf drivers, frozen pizza, NGC chat forums, etc.  You should get the idea by now.  I'm not against most change.  I don't wish to crank my automobile to start it.

 Sorry, this response is no longer simple.    This is better:

A computer has allowed me to authenticate coins that formerly would have been held for weeks until we took a trip to a museum.  So YES, I consider a computer a CRUTCH.  A very helpful crutch and one I need and would not throw away; nevertheless, a crutch.    Ditto for modern cameras that make taking photos child's play.      

Even more relevant to this forum, I consider TPG to be a CRUTCH.  A good and necessary crutch for the ignorant.  These "crutches" were not around when I started collecting.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Insider

[brg5658]

2 minutes ago, Insider said:

I am constantly frustrated  by the way you can twist things in your own mind enough to attribute absolute nonsense to my comments with your "clairvoyant " umptions.  It has nothing to do with me or my realistic outlook on life.  I'm going to make this as simple as I can for you.  

I have noticed that many folks in the younger generations have lost the "edge."  Technology plus the dumbing-down of the American Education System is is just one cause.  The simple comprehension of the written word, even occurring on these forums by some members is an example.  Computers have taken the place of spelling and math.  The art of hand writing is mostly gone.  In emergencies, folks are unprepared.  Why store necessities when you can shop for them every day.  

With those examples, who would wish to live in a time before computers, cell phones, HDTV, digital cameras, huge tennis racquets and golf drivers, frozen pizza, NGC chat forums, etc.  You should get the idea by now.  I'm not against most change.  I don't wish to crank my automobile to start it.

 Sorry, this response is no longer simple.    This is better:

A computer has allowed me to authenticate coins that formerly would have been held for weeks until we took a trip to a museum.  So YES, I consider a computer a CRUTCH.  A very helpful crutch and one I need and would not throw away; nevertheless, a crutch.    Ditto for modern cameras that make taking photos child's play.      

Even more relevant to this forum, I consider TPG to be a CRUTCH.  A good and necessary crutch for the ignorant.  These "crutches" were not around when I started collecting.

Who is the snowflake now?  If you can’t keep up with the times then maybe it’s time you just find a nice gated retirement community. 

I’m not twisting anything. You’re complaining about technological advances, almost nonstop.  Longing for the “good ‘ole days” and  ranting about younger generations.

In another since poofed thread, I went to great lengths replying to your posts with science and facts, and you deflected to nonsensical tangential bemoaning.  I offered my qualifications in actually doing work in the field of the question at hand - you belittled formal education and universities.  Etc, etc, ad nauseum.

You accuse me of “jealous hatred” instead of being self-aware enough to realize that your constant ranting and way of talking down to everyone is off-putting. You have 2 cents on every topic whether you know anything about the topic or not.  For example, you tell me to read a photography book because you took a class 40 years ago...whatever that has to do with coin photography now.  I own and have read over a dozen books on photography. 

I do believe you have useful knowledge to contribute.  I do believe you can be engaging and helpful when you want to be.  But some of us don’t just lay down and grovel at your omniscient feet.  I know nonsense when I read it.  You have to earn respect, not demand it.  Your age doesn’t give you a pass.

Now, if you could kindly keep this thread on the topic of photography of coins would be much appreciated.  I don’t get paid to be your therapist. 

[VKurtB]

45 minutes ago, RWB said:

Well.....do you want them ostentatious, imposing, sumptuous, sybaritic, impressive, or will basic polysyllabic do? We aim to please as Kim Jongu-un said to his uncle Jang Song-thaek, as 50 cal. machine guns warmed up nearby.

Any and all of the above. And if it annoys some members here who complain about it, I like it all the better.

[VKurtB]

29 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

omniscient feet

Where can I get some of these? Sounds weird, kinky even.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

42 minutes ago, Insider said:

Why store necessities when you can shop for them every day.

Are we a prepper now, too?

[VKurtB]

44 minutes ago, Insider said:

modern cameras that make taking photos child's play.

Modern cameras make taking bad photos child's play. And most people who own them do exactly that. @brg5658 is the exception. He can rightly be called an artist. But truly, the most critical thing of all is getting the lighting just right, which is THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD. Or it was.

[Insider]

15 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Modern cameras make taking bad photos child's play. And most people who own them do exactly that. @brg5658 is the exception. He can rightly be called an artist. But truly, the most critical thing of all is getting the lighting just right, which is THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD. Or it was.

I agree.  Obviously lighting is very important HOWEVER the orientation of the coin (rotation & degree of tilt off the horizontal) is equally important as each of these three things can be used to hide imperfections on the coin.  I can change the orientation of the coin, the light' or the camera.  I cannot believe everyone posting does not know this and INSISTS that the coin remain flat.. 

I have a plan  using quality images of the entire coin to stump the "experts."  If it does not work using a digital camera I will admit to being an ignorant old fool who knows absolutely nothing about digital photography. 

BTW, I proudly admit when I'm wrong and learn something new that changes my position - ON ANYTHING!  I also answer direct questions.  Otherwise it is just    and NOT A DISCUSSION.  I wish everyone did the same.   

[Insider]

38 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Are we a prepper now, too?

Yes, and just so you know...  Oops, if I were to post the rest of my thoughts, I would be reported by the "weenies" and banned as happened on the ATS.  

[VKurtB]

50 minutes ago, Insider said:

Yes, and just so you know...  Oops, if I were to post the rest of my thoughts, I would be reported by the "weenies" and banned as happened on the ATS.  

Preppers. /rolls eyes so hard it can actually be heard several states away

Cripes, man, if society ever went sideways so badly that prepping was in any way valuable or important, just the lack of life-sustaining meds would take me out way before food even became a serious issue. So yeah, prepping is pretty ridiculous to me.

Edited October 16, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

1 hour ago, brg5658 said:

Who is the snowflake now?  If you can’t keep up with the times then maybe it’s time you just find a nice gated retirement community. 

I’m not twisting anything. You’re complaining about technological advances, almost nonstop.  Longing for the “good ‘ole days” and  ranting about younger generations.

In another since poofed thread, I went to great lengths replying to your posts with science and facts, and you deflected to nonsensical tangential bemoaning.  I offered my qualifications in actually doing work in the field of the question at hand - you belittled formal education and universities.  Etc, etc, ad nauseum.

You accuse me of “jealous hatred” instead of being self-aware enough to realize that your constant ranting and way of talking down to everyone is off-putting. You have 2 cents on every topic whether you know anything about the topic or not.  For example, you tell me to read a photography book because you took a class 40 years ago...whatever that has to do with coin photography now.  I own and have read over a dozen books on photography. 

I do believe you have useful knowledge to contribute.  I do believe you can be engaging and helpful when you want to be.  But some of us don’t just lay down and grovel at your omniscient feet.  I know nonsense when I read it.  You have to earn respect, not demand it.  Your age doesn’t give you a pass.

Now, if you could kindly keep this thread on the topic of photography of coins would be much appreciated.  I don’t get paid to be your therapist. 

Now, if you could kindly keep this thread on the topic of photography of coins would be much appreciated.  

Perhaps you'll follow your request and stop throwing chum to the sharks.  I notice that the "software" took the A S S out of the word "assumption" I used above.   The software is on your side.  Please explain why you enjoy arguing with yourself:

"If you cannot keep up with the times..."    

"Longing for the good old days... 

"Complaining about technological advances"  

" I went to great lengths replying to your posts with science and facts."   

When someone is not entirely informed about a subject because they didn't bother to get ALL the FACTS from all the available sources, their "facts" may not be entirely correct.  Example: there is a huge coverup going on right now.  It is not being reported as it should be.  I appreciated the time you took to post your "facts."  Unfortunately, each time you were asked a direct question you went silent.   

"... your constant ranting and way of talking down to everyone is off-putting."   

I have a very abrasive personality.  I don't suffer uninformed folks UNLESS they are a student and I turn into a kind, old, lap dog.   I grew up in a different generation where no one made up fake genders so "challenged" folks could appear to be normal.  We were able to speak our mind.  When called a name we dished one back and laughed about it.  "Offended" was only a dictionary word rather than the "snowflake-way-of-life" where folks call the police because the neighbor is smoking a cigarette in the back yard!   I'm not here to make friends but I consider everyone on this site to be my friend - including you.      

"...whatever that has to do with coin photography now.  I own and have read over a dozen books on photography."   

My photography library is out of date.  That's because I lost interest.  Again, the micrographs I take serve my purpose for publication in my columns.  Over the years less than a half dozen folks have complained about them when posted on the Internet.  I guess it is easer to critique an image rather than take a guess about what is shown. 

"... But some of us don’t just lay down and grovel at your omniscient feet.  I know nonsense when I read it.  You have to earn respect, not demand it.  Your age doesn’t give you a pass."

You continue to reveal yourself.  THIS: "lay down and grovel at your omniscient feet." is exactly what I'm talking about.  It is a mirror to your poor attitude.  I personally find the majority of the younger generation in this country are very disappointing and extremely uninformed about the world.  That's why many of them burn down things, destroy our Heritage, and have no respect for others..  I also find a very large number of older folks to be extremely ignorant so it has nothing to do with age!  Anyone who thought it does is silly or just young.

I'll look forward to having a drink with you someday at a show,

[Insider]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Preppers. /rolls eyes so hard it can actually be heard several states away

Cripes, man, if society ever went sideways so badly that prepping was in any way valuable or important, just the lack of life-sustaining meds would take me out way before food even became a serious issue. So yeah, prepping is pretty ridiculous to me.

I suggest you talk with your doctor and get ahead.  I've got a two year supply of blood pressure Meds by breaking a larger dose (that I don't need) in half.  

 

PS I just tried to message a member so we could discuss off-topic things off line 0but did not go through.  Next week, I'll post some photos as a test of acceptability. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Insider

[RWB]

It would be nice to hear from other members who are interested in improving their coin photography.

There is too much potential value in brg5658's initial post and related photographic comments,  to have it buried under extraneous bickering. That is not acceptable.

Thank you!

Edited October 17, 2020 by RWB
Some of the original words slipped....

[brg5658]

7 hours ago, RWB said:

It would be nice to hear from other members who are interested in improving their coin photography.

There is too much potential value in brg5658's initial post and related photographic comments,  to have it buried under extraneous bickering. That is not acceptable.

Thank you!

Thank you Roger.  A select few members here seem to confuse “more content” with “helpful/useful content”...

I hope to hear from others specifically about coin photography challenges and helpful suggestions.