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Isle of Man
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169 posts in this topic

While I am a classic kind of guy, I do dabble in Moderns (both circulated and NCLT). I enjoy the Isle of Man history and coinage - both classic and modern. Today I will highlight the reverse on the sovereign issues. In this instance the half sovereign. This is a short series and can be collected in proof or BU (not to mention die mark on the BU). I will not go into some of the privy marks on the different issues at this time. These are for sale every now and again. I've been searching for one of them for about seven years now. The 1984 is a rarity with 20 minted (per catalogs) in BU and 12 in Proof. I've only seen one for sale as did a major seller in the UK and I snatched it up. The obverse is of Elizabeth II (the current Lord of Man). Man is a Crown Dependency. The Isle of Man has the longest continuous running parliament in the world (and the longest running continuous horse drawn tram that I have highlighted before that holds some significance to me). It also has great TT races for you race fans.

 

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Always liked the IOM sovereigns, it's a series that has always gnawed at me, a series (1/2 sovereigns) that is on my short list of "next sets to get serious about". Maybe next year.

Nice set and great job in acquiring the 1984 1/2. Are there a few slots missing in the registry set? I've notice that the number of sets in the IOM registry has greatly increased, maybe twofold, seems to be a slight increase in interest in IOM coinage. 

I see you referenced Southall in your descriptions. How accurate do you feel his information on the 1/2 sovereigns is, I felt his information on the bullion issues to be lacking, specifically the 1/10 gold angels. Overall a great book, I have the 3rd edition (going to reread the sovereign section tonight). It really tweaks me that Pobjoy doesn't release mintage figures.

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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1 hour ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Always liked the IOM sovereigns, it's a series that has always gnawed at me, a series (1/2 sovereigns) that is on my short list of "next sets to get serious about". Maybe next year.

Nice set and great job in acquiring the 1984 1/2. Are there a few slots missing in the registry set? I've notice that the number of sets in the IOM registry has greatly increased, maybe twofold, seems to be a slight increase in interest in IOM coinage. 

I see you referenced Southall in your descriptions. How accurate do you feel his information on the 1/2 sovereigns is, I felt his information on the bullion issues to be lacking, specifically the 1/10 gold angels. Overall a great book, I have the 3rd edition (going to reread the sovereign section tonight). It really tweaks me that Pobjoy doesn't release mintage figures.

Good for you - on your plans on collecting the half sovereign. 

NGC has the slots correct. The IOM came out with the 1965, they then started the series in earnest in 1973. There are only proofs for 1983. Pobjoy confirmed That they did not strike any BU 1983 1/2 sovereigns. I've started to collect the die varieties as well.

One interesting occurence. I saw a 1993 IOM 1/2 sovereign with the Norse warrior reverse for sale. It was a bit pitted, but overall in good shape. I was after a couple other coins at the time and did not buy it (I should have). I talked to Pobjoy and they could not determined if they issued it or not (again very poor records). They said it is possibly theirs that was made special for a dealer, but weren't sure. Who knows if another one will pop up and then the question will be to add it into the registry or not. Without proof the Pobjoy issued it, there will be a good debate.

I've talked to Southhall a few times and folks at the Pobjoy mint many times. Pobjoy drives me nuts with their inadequate records. Southhall did a good job with the information out there and at the Pobjoy mint. He does have some errors in his book, but overall - it is good and the best reference in existence. I continually look for these issues and will probably upgrade a couple in the future. Let me know when you start - it is a fun series. 

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I've been kicking the tires on these for a few years now, I bid on a few (didn't win). I was going to start with proofs, just haven't come across the right deal/coin yet. When I get my first I'll let you know.

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

One interesting occurence. I saw a 1993 IOM 1/2 sovereign with the Norse warrior reverse for sale. It was a bit pitted, but overall in good shape. I was after a couple other coins at the time and did not buy it (I should have). I talked to Pobjoy and they could not determined if they issued it or not (again very poor records). They said it is possibly theirs that was made special for a dealer, but weren't sure. Who knows if another one will pop up and then the question will be to add it into the registry or not. Without proof the Pobjoy issued it, there will be a good debate.

Pobjoy cracks me up with their lack of self knowledge and records but I guess that's part of what makes collecting coins minted by them frustrating and fun at the same time. Frustrating in that Pobjoy doesn't know what they did, fun in that you get to figure it out and make "discoveries". I'm running into similar "occurrences" with the 1/10 angels.

Were there different die pairs used for the proofs as well, or did they stick with one pair of dies for the proofs? 

Were there design variations within the sizes, 1/2, 1 & 2 sovereigns minted in the same year. I'm wondering if the reversed warrior on the 1/2 sovereign is a design from a different size or date. From what I've been seeing (in the angels) Pobjoy liked to mix and match designs through the sizes and between proofs and BU's in the same year/s.

 

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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2 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Were there different die pairs used for the proofs as well, or did they stick with one pair of dies for the proofs? 

The proofs do not have a die Mark associated with them. As far as the number of dies used - I am not sure. I collect the BU issues and not proofs - otherwise I would have dove into the minds of the Pobjoy staff and would have tried to figure that one out. 

2 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Were there design variations within the sizes, 1/2, 1 & 2 sovereigns minted in the same year. I'm wondering if the reversed warrior on the 1/2 sovereign is a design from a different size or date. From what I've been seeing (in the angels) Pobjoy liked to mix and match designs through the sizes and between proofs and BU's in the same year/s.

They were pretty consistent with their designs in a given year. The two and the five pound issues were a little more limited, but kept the same design. They just didn't issue a couple of years as compared to the half and full sovereign.

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2 minutes ago, 7.jaguars said:

I have previously written about having a proof Viking On Horse 1983 Proof half sov.....I do not have the unc. version however.

The 1983 proof half sovereigns are out there, but I have not seen - nor have I ever heard about a BU 1983. Southhall, Pobjoy and one other source (slips my mine at the moment) all conform that.  

What did you write about the proof?  I really should start collecting those as well.

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Been looking into the proofs a little bit, Southall (3rd edition) lists the 78' proof as having die mark "A", not that it really matters if all the 78's have the same mark. He also lists the 1983 as BU and Proof and has an 86' with a mintage of 12, wow, imagine if one of those popped up. 

I've also looked into the NGC population reports and they list a 1991 proof not listed in Southall. Looks like NGC is recognizing the Die Marks on the labels and is updating the mint mark "PM" to the labels as coins get submitted (they are doing the same with the Angels, adding "PM" to the descriptions as coins are submitted). 

Hey NGC, the category title in the census is "Isle of Man - Modern - 1971 To Date"  might want to consider changing it to "1965 To Date". Just saying. 

I'm definitely starting with the proofs, I feel like they need some attention and that there could be some new "discoveries" to be found.

Took a look at the PCGS pop reports there is not much but they have graded one 1984 proof and list the mintage as 20. I hate how they have their world coins organized.

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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Hiya, well can't figure out which forum I posted on. I comb everywhere on the internet, dealer ads, bullion dealers if they are listing dates (many may be hidden in these sources or even have been melted), looking for many years,  and I don't think either of the two lower denominations are at all common and  much scarcer in proof or uncirculated (which I have not seen either) than many of the others excepting the township sov. series (IMO, an entirely different set) or the 1987 differently designed viking on horse sov, supposedly in gold. I got the 1/2 by constantly combing dealers on line and every show, this one finally showing up from a bullion dealer in original packaging.The larger 2 and 5 sovereign pieces even though listed by Southall I have never seen in either proof or uncirculated. I seem to recall that 1993 piece and also would have definitely taken a shot at it. I am a bit wary of the other dates and as to whether they are actually viking on horse. I am sure the Chinese would oblige for other dates...

 Here is a picture of the proof 1983 1/2 and 1 sovereign, and a picture of the 1/2 by itself:

 

6B45E46C-09BD-4EE6-AB8B-ADEFD6AA11D6_1_105_c.thumb.jpeg.7222adecc0914cd474ce78906588e097.jpeg

 

20CCFFC7-B10A-4D4C-A17D-E55D1CA5AFA6_1_105_c.jpeg.b803d3f9de7f8a8f03a260eb23c85013.jpeg

 

 

 

Edited by 7.jaguars
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2 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Been looking into the proofs a little bit, Southall (3rd edition) lists the 78' proof as having die mark "A", not that it really matters if all the 78's have the same mark. He also lists the 1983 as BU and Proof and has an 86' with a mintage of 12, wow, imagine if one of those popped up. 

I've also looked into the NGC population reports and they list a 1991 proof not listed in Southall. Looks like NGC is recognizing the Die Marks on the labels and is updating the mint mark "PM" to the labels as coins get submitted (they are doing the same with the Angels, adding "PM" to the descriptions as coins are submitted). 

Hey NGC, the category title in the census is "Isle of Man - Modern - 1971 To Date"  might want to consider changing it to "1965 To Date". Just saying. 

I'm definitely starting with the proofs, I feel like they need some attention and that there could be some new "discoveries" to be found.

Took a look at the PCGS pop reports there is not much but they have graded one 1984 proof and list the mintage as 20. I hate how they have their world coins organized.

I'll have to take a look at the 1991 proof in the NGC listing.

You are correct about the 1978 with the A die mark - across the different denominations. Southhall also lists the proof 1980 full sovereign with a D die Mark.

the PCGS listings are a complete mess, but they do have a few.

Pobjoy frustrates me to no end. Looking back at my notes - they state that they DO keep mint age records, but it's a management decision not to release that information and in the next breath they say they do not have montage records.

My reference book does not list a 1986 in proof or BU -- maybe another one to pick up.

 

Edited by Zebo
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26 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Great coins!

Only problem with collecting the proofs is that I would need the 1981 to complete the set. 

674363734_1981IOMHalfSovereign.thumb.jpg.d902679c68d8b079cd918dbc5781cbdc.jpg

I may have to leave that slot blank.

One of the reasons that I collect Bu and not proof.

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1 hour ago, 7.jaguars said:

Hiya, well can't figure out which forum I posted on. I comb everywhere on the internet, dealer ads, bullion dealers if they are listing dates (many may be hidden in these sources or even have been melted), looking for many years,  and I don't think either of the two lower denominations are at all common and  much scarcer in proof or uncirculated (which I have not seen either) than many of the others excepting the township sov. series (IMO, an entirely different set) or the 1987 differently designed viking on horse sov, supposedly in gold. I got the 1/2 by constantly combing dealers on line and every show, this one finally showing up from a bullion dealer in original packaging.The larger 2 and 5 sovereign pieces even though listed by Southall I have never seen in either proof or uncirculated. I seem to recall that 1993 piece and also would have definitely taken a shot at it. I am a bit wary of the other dates and as to whether they are actually viking on horse. I am sure the Chinese would oblige for other dates...

 Here is a picture of the proof 1983 1/2 and 1 sovereign, and a picture of the 1/2 by itself:

 

6B45E46C-09BD-4EE6-AB8B-ADEFD6AA11D6_1_105_c.thumb.jpeg.7222adecc0914cd474ce78906588e097.jpeg

 

20CCFFC7-B10A-4D4C-A17D-E55D1CA5AFA6_1_105_c.jpeg.b803d3f9de7f8a8f03a260eb23c85013.jpeg

 

 

 

Very nice and a hard one to find. I've talked to a few collectors that have just started to collect these - so they may be harder in the future.

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Ah, don't worry about that one - it's ugly as sin and really just inserted into the denomination....

 I have kept my collection to the viking only. I will have to look back as I believe I have a privy mark viking 1/2 sov in unc that is not in Southall & have to see if I can find it.

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21 minutes ago, 7.jaguars said:

 

 I have kept my collection to the viking only. I will have to look back as I believe I have a privy mark viking 1/2 sov in unc that is not in Southall & have to see if I can find it.

Do tell 

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11 minutes ago, 7.jaguars said:

 I have kept my collection to the viking only. I will have to look back as I believe I have a privy mark viking 1/2 sov in unc that is not in Southall & have to see if I can find it.

If you find it, post a pic. Would love to see that one and add it to the list.

38 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Pobjoy frustrates me to no end. Looking back at my notes - they state that they DO keep mint age records, but it's a management decision not to release that information and in the next breath they say they do not have montage records.

I contacted Pobjoy last month and this is the response I received.

Dear Mike,

Thank you for your email.
 
I am really sorry but we do not disclose our mintage figures.
 
I am sorry I cannot be of further assistance.
 
Kind regards,

Customer Service Department

:frustrated:

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LOL, wouldn't want to be in the cross hairs of one of those. 

Reading on Wiki, it says they can occasionally have 6 horns and are delicious. Mmmmm.

There is a heard isolated on the Calf of Man near Chicken Rock, love those names. Hmm, they were put on an island (Calf of Man) to separate them from another island (Isle of Man) to protect them from a bigger island (UK). That's a lot of islands.

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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Ah, yes, I found it:   1980 Uncirculated 1/2 sovereign with ship privy, not in Southall as he lists it as Proof only:

The viking looks like Ragnar from the movie "The Vikings" with Kirk Douglas, Janet Leigh and Ernest Borgnine.

 

 

 

1D3B25E1-68B5-4318-91B6-513CAB634146_1_201_a.jpeg

 

PS - That response from the PM was so bogus. "We do not release mintage figures". ....What? I guess we are just customers. Of course the Royal Mint are not champs on this either.

Edited by 7.jaguars
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Like I said the information in Southall on the bullion issues (I'm including sovereigns as bullion) was lacking or at least seems like it to me. Granted PM is a dumpster fire (that's probably where they filed the mintage figures) when it comes to record keeping and releasing info but there are just some obvious omissions and mistakes that could have been corrected with a little more research. I agree it's still the "go to" for IOM coinage.

4 hours ago, Zebo said:

 

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Do their horns always droop after a shearing? 

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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4 hours ago, 7.jaguars said:

Ah, yes, I found it:   1980 Uncirculated 1/2 sovereign with ship privy, not in Southall as he lists it as Proof only:

The viking looks like Ragnar from the movie "The Vikings" with Kirk Douglas, Janet Leigh and Ernest Borgnine.

 

 

 

1D3B25E1-68B5-4318-91B6-513CAB634146_1_201_a.jpeg

 

PS - That response from the PM was so bogus. "We do not release mintage figures". ....What? I guess we are just customers. Of course the Royal Mint are not champs on this either.

Southall has this listed as proof only. He did list list all th die marks associated with any of the sovereigns - just the ones he knew about.  So the question is - is this a proof that is listed (but does not have the die Mark noted) or is this a BU that is not listed at all. I'm not sure which.

I'll pull out my other reference and see if says anything.

Edited by Zebo
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8 hours ago, 7.jaguars said:

It has a very matte like uncirculated finish like all my others however....Which is the other reference BTW?

In addition to Southalls book, I often refer to my correspondence with Southall and with the Pobjoy Mint. In addition to that I have an encyclopedia of Isle of Man coins published by the Pobjoy Mint. This actually lists the number of sovereigns minted for each die for the years 1973 and 1974. It also provides a little information on sovereigns through 1979, but the information is very limited and it stops there. There are some good tidbits of information in it that Southall does not have in his book (I believe - I'd have to reread Southall's book to be positive).

So the question about your 1980 isn't covered in the book unfortunately. In any event - there are sure to be some interesting finds in this series in the future. 

I've offered and have requested access to the Pobjoy archives, but have been refused. Dirty laundry???

two other tidbits: one of the Pobjoy staff actually told me that they use Southall's and Krause's information for their records as they do not keep,their own. The deeper I dug, the more their story changed. So who knows what is the truth.

also - I talked to the Isle of Man government in search of their records for coins and currency. That was a dead end because the person in charge of the archived records retired and took his files with him. You have to remember - this is a very small place and things happen.

Edited by Zebo
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19 hours ago, Zebo said:

I'll have to take a look at the 1991 proof in the NGC listing.

Found the 91' four crowned shield proof, cert # 2036791-007

Sold through HA in 2009, here's the link https://coins.ha.com/itm/isle-of-man/world-coins/isle-of-man-elizabeth-ii-gold-half-sovereign-1991-/a/3006-22520.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

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28 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

What a steal at that price.

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17 minutes ago, Zebo said:

What a steal at that price.

That's what I thought.

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

also - I talked to the Isle of Man government in search of their records for coins and currency. That was a dead end because the person in charge of the archived records retired and took his files with him. You have to remember - this is a very small place and things happen.

Have you ever gone to their website, they have quite a few documents scanned and available for download. https://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/Search.aspx?=&s=All Sites&k=sovereign&start1=1

Here's one about the 1983 sovereign's, not really any additional info but you might be able to find some documents.

1734465769_1983SovereignPage1.thumb.png.d868fddb8a9e5bbbcb5aa8c8eaeeb31e.png1718047713_1983SovereignPage2.thumb.png.64da0b539e3f0bebf33326e665bc0111.png

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