• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

I just "Ignored" someone for the first time.
2 2

251 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, bsshog40 said:

I think if we could all just contribute the knowledge we have, this forum would be much better. We all have the same hobby with different interests and opinions. If we could share those without passing judgment all the time, we may all learn something.  Jmo

I admit I do have an exceptionally short fuse for those "USB microscope jockeys" who see/imagine myriad "rare" varieties and won't be moved off that belief. On one hand, I know they really don't want to read my "snark", but on the other hand I feel they NEED to. Silence implies consent. I know many online do not see that implication (they see silence as just "moving on") but I do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I admit I do have an exceptionally short fuse for those "USB microscope jockeys" who see/imagine myriad "rare" varieties and won't be moved off that belief. On one hand, I know they really don't want to read my "snark", but on the other hand I feel they NEED to. Silence implies consent. I know many online do not see that implication (they see silence as just "moving on") but I do.

Many times I take the advice of the Dali Lama  "Sometimes silence is the best answer."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Moxie15 said:

Many times I take the advice of the Dali Lama  "Sometimes silence is the best answer."

He never met my wife. She regards silence as the biggest insult possible.

0DDF431C-4397-4015-A6AA-CA4030689DF9.jpeg
"Big hitter, the Lama..."

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

I wish my wife would insult me like that more often, especially in the car.

I'm defenseless, even if I'm driving, 95% of the time we're in the car together, it's her car. Mine scares her. "It's too low. I feel like I'm dragging on the ground."

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Oh I dunno, I still have fans over there. I get it that you are not one them, Larry, and that's quite okay with me. Look Larry, I actually do "feel for" folks like you, and @Insider, and @physics-fan3.14, and @RWB, and @GDJMSP over at CoinTalk, and a handful of others here and there. I know what it feels like when a beloved activity that you've sunk decades into becoming among the best at the practices of that used to be important, it then crushes your heart and it walks away from making or keeping you relevant. While you and those others were becoming among the best at grading the way it used to be, and maybe getting paid to do it, I was becoming one of the top people in the old-school photographic industry, and I was paid handsomely to do that. No more. The digital revolution, slowly at first and then all of a sudden, made my expertise nearly "irrelevant" in the marketplace. Knowing emulsions' characteristics gave way to megapixels and pixel patterns, and sharpening algorithms, and jpeg compression artifacts, and tons of other stuff I almost resent. But I couldn't stop that train any more than you 5 gentlemen I've named above can stop the march to TPGS-style "commercial" or "market" grading. The old ways are officially dead, and you can get with it, or get run over BY it. You still get to choose. I didn't.

 

So I did what a lot of people do when the field they were in "forever" goes "breasts up" and floats, and you're still in your 50's - I went into government service.

Here is the flaw in your opinion of being "passed over."  When I buy an MS coin, it meets MY OBSOLETE STANDARD for MS: NO trace of wear!  I don't care what the label says. I don't care what the seller thinks.   One major dealer (during a slow period of a show) let me go through hundreds of slabbed gold $20 Liberties until I found a few TRUE MS MS-61's, and MS-62's.  All were fully MS and I picked out the best coin in each grade.  I needed them for class.  Just as all MS-65's are not equal; all MS-62's are not true MS!   

SO WHAT!  I'll be the first to tell my students that I'd sell one of those "commercial" MS coins all day long and sleep like a baby.  My personal standards are high; but I'd adopt to the "new" standards like the rest of them if I were in the "real world" as a dealer.  FACT: We are lucky to have the option of TPGS's and their "REAL WORLD" grading is OK for me.     

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Insider said:

Here is the flaw in your opinion of being "passed over."  When I buy an MS coin, it meets MY OBSOLETE STANDARD for MS: NO trace of wear!  I don't care what the label says. I don't care what the seller thinks.   One major dealer (during a slow period of a show) let me go through hundreds of slabbed gold $20 Liberties until I found a few TRUE MS MS-61's, and MS-62's.  All were fully MS and I picked out the best coin in each grade.  I needed them for class.  Just as all MS-65's are not equal; all MS-62's are not true MS!   

SO WHAT!  I'll be the first to tell my students that I'd sell one of those "commercial" MS coins all day long and sleep like a baby.  My personal standards are high; but I'd adopt to the "new" standards like the rest of them if I were in the "real world" as a dealer.  FACT: We are lucky to have the option of TPGS's and their "REAL WORLD" grading is OK for me.     

Okay Skip, for the most part I get that, and admire that. No one, least of all I, would ever begrudge you your absolute right to buy only what meats your standards. The only place where I might have a quibble is how you apply that wisdom in a class. I don't know, I haven't taken yours, so you'll have to tell me. If you are both teaching the TPGS way, and your standards, and 'splainin' how a student can get superior material by following your standards, then that is just as admirable as anything gets. However, if it disintegrates into TPGS bashing, at this point in time, then I believe you are doing harm. Why? Because the power and influence that the alphabet soup brothers have in 2020 is so entrenched that fighting it now seems like opposition for opposition's sake. I might not have felt that strongly 20-25 years ago.

An aside, now that I am approaching retirement, I'd genuinely like to learn from you, in "meatspace". I hope I get that opportunity some day, as long as you don't mind a student that occasionally pushes back. The older I get, the more I see fewer things as "good" or "evil", but I do hold onto some quirks there, but merely things that "are", without value judgment.

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

RE: But I couldn't stop that train any more than you 5 gentlemen I've named above can stop the march to TPGS-style "commercial" or "market" grading.

The "TPGS-style" grading has within its structure its own failure. That will ultimately force a more stable, empirical system where anyone can access and know a single set of standards. This will also greatly improves the ability of the hobby to prosecute fraudsters. Discussing and conceptualizing a stable, empirical system now can help avoid making the same mistakes in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, RWB said:

RE: But I couldn't stop that train any more than you 5 gentlemen I've named above can stop the march to TPGS-style "commercial" or "market" grading.

The "TPGS-style" grading has within its structure its own failure. That will ultimately force a more stable, empirical system where anyone can access and know a single set of standards. This will also greatly improves the ability of the hobby to prosecute fraudsters. Discussing and conceptualizing a stable, empirical system now can help avoid making the same mistakes in the future.

Conceptually, I agree, but there is a "personal" flaw there, that might only pertain to me. Given my medical history, I have already out-survived most people similar to me by 3x, from time of initial diagnosis and treatment. You're talking about turning around the great big ship and turning it back toward a stable empirical destination. The ship is moving AWAY from there at this point, and ACCELERATING. What hope do I ever have of seeing it dock where you want to take it, Roger?

But by all means, conceptualize away. I'm a "process guy".

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone who works for the ANA at every convention, one of things that breaks my heart is the crestfallen look on the faces of "Free Saturday" single day attendees upon seeing the floor. Heritage is gone, Stacks/Bowers is gone, a little less so Kagin's is gone, and their booths look like a bomb hit 'em. NGC is gone, PCGS is gone. Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot. This hobby insults far more beginners with that mishigas than I could do in a year of snarky posts in response to USB microscope jockeys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The entire "large coin show" approach is a failure from most viewpoints. I've written about these in detail to ANA, discussed with show sponsors and auction companies, but all are afraid of change. They are OK with sliding down hill on their business-behinds because it will be "somebodyelse's fault" when it gets washed away in the river. Breaking a new trail means going up hill and taking risks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with the large shows is that they aren't for collectors. They are for dealers to do business with other dealers. If a dealer sells something to a collector, that is just icing.

I've been to shows where dealers I know have set up a table, yet not once will I ever see the dealer. They are in a hotel room doing deals or at the auctions. 

At a show several years ago a well known dealer was sharing a table with another dealer I knew. These two dealers were good friends. The well known dealer had several coins in his case with prices. I had an interest. However, the dealer I knew said he wasn't sure they were actually for sale. The big time dealer needed something to fill his case or the show organizer would get upset and he just grabbed some stuff before leaving his shop. Not once over the 4 days did I ever see that dealer at his table. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

The problem with the large shows is that they aren't for collectors. They are for dealers to do business with other dealers. If a dealer sells something to a collector, that is just icing.

I've been to shows where dealers I know have set up a table, yet not once will I ever see the dealer. They are in a hotel room doing deals or at the auctions. 

At a show several years ago a well known dealer was sharing a table with another dealer I knew. These two dealers were good friends. The well known dealer had several coins in his case with prices. I had an interest. However, the dealer I knew said he wasn't sure they were actually for sale. The big time dealer needed something to fill his case or the show organizer would get upset and he just grabbed some stuff before leaving his shop. Not once over the 4 days did I ever see that dealer at his table. 

A valid gripe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Okay Skip, for the most part I get that, and admire that. No one, least of all I, would ever begrudge you your absolute right to buy only what meats your standards. The only place where I might have a quibble is how you apply that wisdom in a class. I don't know, I haven't taken yours, so you'll have to tell me. If you are both teaching the TPGS way, and your standards, and 'splainin' how a student can get superior material by following your standards, then that is just as admirable as anything gets. However, if it disintegrates into TPGS bashing, at this point in time, then I believe you are doing harm. Why? Because the power and influence that the alphabet soup brothers have in 2020 is so entrenched that fighting it now seems like opposition for opposition's sake. I might not have felt that strongly 20-25 years ago.

An aside, now that I am approaching retirement, I'd genuinely like to learn from you, in "meatspace". I hope I get that opportunity some day, as long as you don't mind a student that occasionally pushes back. The older I get, the more I see fewer things as "good" or "evil", but I do hold onto some quirks there, but merely things that "are", without value judgment.

IMO, there is ONLY one way to teach a subject.  Start with the basic observable absolutes that cannot be disputed.  For example: the highest part of a coin's design or a coin's major focal areas.  I don't teach a student to ignore something he/she can see for themselves.  That comes later when they subjectively decide what is important to them. The job of a teacher in a coin grading class is to get them to see everything there is to see on a coin; know what it is and what caused it.  This is very easy to do in a short period of time for an intelligent person with good eyesight.  When a student can pick up a major TPGS slab and guess the grade correctly most of the time or have a valid reason why they disagreed -  I'm ecstatic!  (thumbsu   

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RWB said:

RE: But I couldn't stop that train any more than you 5 gentlemen I've named above can stop the march to TPGS-style "commercial" or "market" grading.

The "TPGS-style" grading has within its structure its own failure. That will ultimately force a more stable, empirical system where anyone can access and know a single set of standards. This will also greatly improves the ability of the hobby to prosecute fraudsters. Discussing and conceptualizing a stable, empirical system now can help avoid making the same mistakes in the future.

I understand what you wrote but cannot understand your conclusion that a very successful and stabilizing system (TPG) will fail after decades.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Conceptually, I agree, but there is a "personal" flaw there, that might only pertain to me. Given my medical history, I have already out-survived most people similar to me by 3x, from time of initial diagnosis and treatment. You're talking about turning around the great big ship and turning it back toward a stable empirical destination. The ship is moving AWAY from there at this point, and ACCELERATING. What hope do I ever have of seeing it dock where you want to take it, Roger?

But by all means, conceptualize away. I'm a "process guy".

LOL, Some of us will miss you when you are gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Insider said:

LOL, Some of us will miss you when you are gone.

My current attitude is to live as I want, ask no quarter nor give any, love my wife and my kid (not related) like every time I see them might be the last time, and give all I have to my work and my hobby. And if it all becomes too much to bear, from the physical pain, all I need to do is stop my meds for 7 days, and I'll be gone. But I take no habit-forming pain meds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Insider said:

I understand what you wrote but cannot understand your conclusion that a very successful and stabilizing system (TPG) will fail after decades.

That's because it is not "stabilizing." The absence of empirical standards - open to all and measurable by all - ensures instability created by opinion and bias. ALL TPGs have bought into that endemic problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

My current attitude is to live as I want, ask no quarter nor give any, love my wife and my kid (not related) like every time I see them might be the last time, and give all I have to my work and my hobby. And if it all becomes too much to bear, from the physical pain, all I need to do is stop my meds for 7 days, and I'll be gone. But I take no habit-forming pain meds.

Wife? Since when?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, RWB said:

That's because it is not "stabilizing." The absence of empirical standards - open to all and measurable by all - ensures instability created by opinion and bias. ALL TPGs have bought into that endemic problem.

I understand that fully, and hope my son gets to see the benefit of it. I will not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, coincorgi said:

Wife? Since when?

May 22, 2020. A remarriage with ex-wife #2. She came along on my numismatic trip to the U.K. last fall, to help me navigate London better (she had been), and we re-sparked. My medical condition leads to panic attacks when things come at me too fast. It's why I went from swearing at the old guy who drives too slow on the Interstate to being that guy who drives that slow, in like a week.

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

VKurtB said:  "However, if it disintegrates into TPGS bashing, at this point in time, then I believe you are doing harm. Why? Because the power and influence that the alphabet soup brothers have in 2020 is so entrenched that fighting it now seems like opposition for opposition's sake. I might not have felt that strongly 20-25 years ago."

 

psst:  don't forget CAC!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Alex in PA. said:

VKurtB said:  "However, if it disintegrates into TPGS bashing, at this point in time, then I believe you are doing harm. Why? Because the power and influence that the alphabet soup brothers have in 2020 is so entrenched that fighting it now seems like opposition for opposition's sake. I might not have felt that strongly 20-25 years ago."

 

psst:  don't forget CAC!

I am trying to, very desperately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

May 22, 2020. A remarriage with ex-wife #2. She came along on my numismatic trip to the U.K. last fall, to help me navigate London better (she had been), and we re-sparked.

Cool. Congrats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, coincorgi said:

Cool. Congrats.

Thank you, sir. We got married in Alabama. This May, it was literally impossible to get all the paperwork Pennsylvania needed. I made a joke about a Confederate monument outside the courthouse in Huntsville. It's gone now.

I'm all about "bucket lists" now. I got to go INSIDE the Royal and Ancient Clubhouse at St. Andrews, the one day each year people can do that (Nov. 30), and I got to hit a ball out of the Road Hole Bunker on #17 (about 4ft from the cup) and rake my footprints out of it before getting our picture done on the Swilcan Bridge.

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, coincorgi said:

I was only able to do this...none of the other stuff you did.

Hope you like humidity!

It was so cold that ice crystals from ocean spray were on the shaded greens. I have never been so glad to have a hickory shafted sand wedge. It still hurt, but it was worth it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Corg,

Right after the 2019 World's Fair of Money, someone over at CoinTalk did a photo slide show about the show, and one of them showed what he called "a pretty lady" holding some sort of doll / stuffed creature. That "pretty lady" is Mrs. VKurtB. It was @Kasia who did it, and I just saw it on page 182 under the "Coin Chat" forum.

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, RWB said:

That's because it is not "stabilizing." The absence of empirical standards - open to all and measurable by all - ensures instability created by opinion and bias. ALL TPGs have bought into that endemic problem.

You sure do make me feel dumb.  I should think if we can take 20 coins and have them graded within three weeks of each other IN A MATURE STEADY COIN MARKET the results would show there actually are "standards." of a sort.  Some would not agree on whatever they turned out to be. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
2 2