Cat Bath Posted May 18, 2022 Author Share Posted May 18, 2022 (edited) On 11/12/2020 at 2:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said: You piqued my interest, Cat, so I just looked up some 1920's in HA. I see plenty of MS-64's going for about $3,500 - $4,500. Add in CAC....the price jumps to the mid-$5's. A "+" seems more stronger [snip] where the price takes an atmospheric jump...$6,500 - $7,500. OLD THREAD ALERT.................Price update. 1920 in MS64+ $25,000 I suspected this would be one to watch. Sad part is I had three 1920 MS64+CAC in my hand and put 2 back in early 2020 for $4,300 each. Edited May 18, 2022 by Cat Bath GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 On 5/18/2022 at 2:23 AM, Cat Bath said: OLD THREAD ALERT.................Price update. 1920 in MS64+ $25,000 I suspected this would be one to watch. Sad part is I had three 1920 MS64+CAC in my hand and put 2 back in early 2020 for $4,300 each. A 1920 MS64+ CAC went for $23,400 a few weeks ago. Another one without CAC sold for $18,000 a few months ago. MS64's were going for about $4,000 give-or-take the last 2 years. 20-35% more for CAC. Has this coin gone up a bunch in recent months ? I'd be suprised if it had, unless a couple of well-heeled buyers needed condition rarities of the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 Just curious...the inflection on the 1920 Saint seems to come with the "+" designation which is very spurious as it's basically a half-point equivalent in the minds of many. Usually, you need a full 1-grade jump to see a big jump like the prices I quoted above. Any other Saints (or other coins) have a "+" as the inflection point ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 On 5/18/2022 at 6:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said: Just curious...the inflection on the 1920 Saint seems to come with the "+" designation which is very spurious as it's basically a half-point equivalent in the minds of many. Usually, you need a full 1-grade jump to see a big jump like the prices I quoted above. Any other Saints (or other coins) have a "+" as the inflection point ? I don’t think it’s at all spurious. It makes sense that a “+” sells for an especially large premium when there’s a substantial value difference between grades. Look at what a 64 and a 65 are each worth. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Bath Posted May 19, 2022 Author Share Posted May 19, 2022 (edited) On 5/18/2022 at 7:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said: Just curious...the inflection on the 1920 Saint seems to come with the "+" designation which is very spurious as it's basically a half-point equivalent in the minds of many. Usually, you need a full 1-grade jump to see a big jump like the prices I quoted above. Any other Saints (or other coins) have a "+" as the inflection point ? Yep...A bunch of them. You can almost predict which ones when you look at the grade distribution. I have the pop. report & price guide almost memorized. I also predicted the 1912 would be higher than it is now. We shall see. (It did double in MS64+ also) Edited May 19, 2022 by Cat Bath GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 On 5/18/2022 at 9:22 PM, MarkFeld said: I don’t think it’s at all spurious. It makes sense that a “+” sells for an especially large premium when there’s a substantial value difference between grades. Look at what a 64 and a 65 are each worth. Let me elaborate further. While I understand that the population drops off tremendously between 64 and 65 and thus the 64+ is worth a nice jump from 64....it's just that to grade a coin that "fine" seems very difficult considering that many times the graders are off by 1 or even 2 grades. Now, in the case of the 1920 there are very few in the higher grades so maybe it's easy to tell a 64+ from a 64. It just struck me as a bit unusual and stuck out with other condition rarities where you need to go up 1 whole grade to see the inflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Bath Posted May 19, 2022 Author Share Posted May 19, 2022 (edited) Generally speaking, the line between grades is sort-of OK between the last 2 or 3 columns of a particular saint. That said, grading on the "fab-5" and some other $$$$ coins is kind-of a dart throw. There are "trends" amongst a particular date/mint mark/major variety lower down the scale. I absolutely believe I can tell what a MS64+ 1920 is suppose to look like and where the line is between A, B & C. Edited May 19, 2022 by Cat Bath GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 On 5/19/2022 at 1:31 AM, Cat Bath said: I absolutely believe I can tell what a MS64+ 1920 is suppose to look like and where the line is between A, B & C. I wouldn't doubt you, CB. I just know I've read lots of articles where a bunch of "experts" were showed a coin (maybe it was a Saint, I can't remember) and the grades were ALL OVER the place. Cat Bath 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RWB Posted May 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2022 (edited) As I've said to the point of distraction: Without fixed standards, the concept of "grading" coins is specious. Five competent people are more likely to scatter grades than agree. Opinion plays too great a role for there to be statistical reliability or repeatability. I now return you to the confusion. Edited May 21, 2022 by RWB Cat Bath, GoldFinger1969 and Alex in PA. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 12:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said: Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status? As long as it is handled correctly, there is no limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 1:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said: Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status? Well...since we don't really care about that for modern coins...and since we can't really tell with classics like pre-1933 gold if they were ever in a pocket, handled with human fingers, in a velvet pouch, etc....I'm not sure it's that critical. It's a good question, as Mint State implies you can get dinged or gouged so long as you never circulated....but if you have a pristine, near-flawless MS coin and then you HANDLE IT....it goes to AU...even though it still may look light-years better than the MS coin. It's one of the glitches in the coin rading system we have to live with. Still better than pre-1986 without TPGs, IMO, by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 1:11 PM, VKurtB said: As long as it is handled correctly, there is no limit. But I would assume that human hands -- unprotected -- would transmit dirt/oils/residue to the coin and start to degrade luster, finish, etc. Alex in PA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 12:13 PM, GoldFinger1969 said: But I would assume that human hands -- unprotected -- would transmit dirt/oils/residue to the coin and start to degrade luster, finish, etc. Not necessarily. As has been stated often here, even NGC graders use human hands, without gloves. Why? A shortage of monkey hands, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 Well, already we have more than one opinion. And that's why grading is so subjective. Throw in toning, and subconsciously one's opinion changes for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 11/12/2020 at 10:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said: I've rarely seen it said that CAC stickers didn't belong, I've read a 'few' comments from ATS where some challenged the awarding of the CAC sticker to coins that appeared not to warrant it. On 11/12/2020 at 10:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said: more so that a coin deserved one and didn't get it. There's some folks ATS that really get hyped up when they don't get the coveted 'bean'. CAC has been here since 2007 and, whether I like it or not, doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 1:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said: Here's a question one can ponder over the long Memorial Day weekend... About how many times can a Mint State, or Uncirculated coin, be touched or handled or carried in a pouch of pocket before it loses its irreproachable virtue and earns circulated status? As many as a 2nd rate linebacker gets touches on a QB....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 4:25 PM, RWB said: As many as a 2nd rate linebacker gets touches on a QB....? I do not want to discourage others from responding, but I believe this is a question that is unanswerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 On 5/27/2022 at 4:58 PM, Quintus Arrius said: I do not want to discourage others from responding, but I believe this is a question that is unanswerable. No, it’s not. Changing hands is not what makes a coin cease to be mint state. Damage, whether “wear” (58 and down) or “coin to coin hits” (60-69) does. Changing hands among 200 knowledgeable numismatists does less to lower a coin’s grade than being owned by a single buffoon. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 On 5/28/2022 at 7:20 PM, VKurtB said: No, it’s not. Changing hands is not what makes a coin cease to be mint state. Damage, whether “wear” (58 and down) or “coin to coin hits” (60-69) does. Changing hands among 200 knowledgeable numismatists does less to lower a coin’s grade than being owned by a single buffoon. As my dear old mom used to say, Yalanda dil, or, Isn't that so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) On 5/27/2022 at 1:32 PM, Alex in PA. said: I've read a 'few' comments from ATS where some challenged the awarding of the CAC sticker to coins that appeared not to warrant it. There's some folks ATS that really get hyped up when they don't get the coveted 'bean'. CAC has been here since 2007 and, whether I like it or not, doesn't seem to be going anywhere. There will be disagreements. Most of those disputes on gold/Saints or small denomination coins ? The one "discrepancy" that folks say about JA/CAC is that he is much tougher on gold/Saints than other coins. Of course, the coins are bigger, too. Not sure if it still is true, but at one time I read that JA/CAC had never stickered a single coin from the Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard. Edited May 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969 Alex in PA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 On 5/29/2022 at 10:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said: but at one time I read that JA/CAC had never stickered a single coin from the Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard That's why I never sent mine in. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) On 5/29/2022 at 9:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said: Most of those disputes on gold/Saints or small denomination coins ? The one "discrepancy" that folks say about JA/CAC is that he is much tougher on gold/Saints than other coins. Of course, the coins are bigger, too. Not sure if it still is true, but at one time I read that JA/CAC had never stickered a single coin from the Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard. Unless I misread it, CAC has stickered more than 3000 1908 No Motto Saints. I bet some of those are Wells Fargo examples, even if no longer designated as such. Edited to add: The link below from the Heritage auction archives, pulls up multiple CAC examples. https://coins.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Ns=Time|1||Lot+No|0&N=51+404+790+231&Ntt=1908+wells+fargo+cac&ic4=SortBy-071515 Edited May 29, 2022 by MarkFeld GoldFinger1969 and Henri Charriere 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) Had one. Edited May 29, 2022 by Alex in PA. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 On 5/29/2022 at 2:21 PM, MarkFeld said: Did you bother to check the CAC population report? Unless I misread it, CAC has stickered more than 3000 1908 No Motto Saints. I feel a bit mean saying this, but I think your comment was irresponsible. You could have easily checked the report, yourself, rather than spreading hearsay. Militating in @GoldFinger1969's favor, he qualified his comment by stating, "Not sure if it still is true,..." Unless one could narrow that window definitively, no faux pas was committed. In the general scheme of things, his credibility is sound and his reputation precedes him. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. 🐓 GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) On 5/29/2022 at 1:41 PM, Quintus Arrius said: Militating in @GoldFinger1969's favor, he qualified his comment by stating, "Not sure if it still is true,..." Unless one could narrow that window definitively, no faux pas was committed. In the general scheme of things, his credibility is sound and his reputation precedes him. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. 🐓 Please see my subsequent edit to that post. It took just a few minutes to determine that even if it was true - which is extremely doubtful - it no longer is. A quick check of the Heritage auction archives brought up multiple CAC examples. Edited May 29, 2022 by MarkFeld Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MarkFeld Posted May 29, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2022 On 5/29/2022 at 1:35 PM, Alex in PA. said: Well, I was hoping to get that one above in but it looks like CAC needed to slow down. Perhaps overwhelmed. It's posted above It's only a 65 but it looks nice. I also read, I believe it was ATS, what he said about the Wells Fargo Saints but I still want a chance. Based on the images, I wouldn’t expect the coin to sticker. And the seller - a very sharp dealer - likely would have already tried it previously, if he thought it had a realistic chance. Coinbuf, Alex in PA. and GoldFinger1969 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 On 5/29/2022 at 2:54 PM, MarkFeld said: I wouldn’t expect the coin to sticker. Kind of thought so. It's been sitting in my desk for a while. Thanks very much for looking. It is a Wells Fargo 65. Maybe one day. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 @MarkFeld [If it is okay with you, I am going to take credit for prompting that lightning-fast edit.] 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted May 29, 2022 Share Posted May 29, 2022 (edited) On 5/29/2022 at 2:01 PM, Quintus Arrius said: @MarkFeld [If it is okay with you, I am going to take credit for prompting that lightning-fast edit.] 😉 It’s not OK with me, because I made the edit before I saw your post. I’d already decided that my original post was too harsh. And I apologize to @GoldFinger1969 for being overly harsh. Edited May 29, 2022 by MarkFeld GoldFinger1969 and Henri Charriere 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...