Question about 1921 saint die 3 3

[Cat Bath]

I can see the die crack getting bigger but my question is what is going on with the wing feathers & the feathers on the belly?

How long can grease stay in a die? Is that what it is?

Unfortunately, coin facts has been gutted and there are few examples of the 21 to study.

[Cat Bath]

I can only upload one picture at a time here.

Link to what is left of coin facts

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1921-20/images/9172

Edited August 20, 2020 by Cat Bath

[Coinbuf]

I certainly am no expert but my thought is that if your seeing this on a number of coins I would think that it is due to die wear/worn out die rather than grease.  It is indeed unfortunate that coin facts was gutted in an attempt to rescue the firms reputation. 

[Cat Bath]

As the die state advances toward deterioration, as seen by the crack, the feathers seem better defined.

A very perplexing thing. (look at the 3 large feathers under what looks like the damage spot)

(top coin late die & bottom coin early die)

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Cat Bath

[kbbpll]

I guess you could go through the 2000 of them on Heritage but it takes a lot of clicking to compare images of reverses. It is interesting how the crack gets worse while the feather definition gets better.

[Insider]

As the die breaks part of the planchet did not come into contact with the die design so - no feathers.  The surface is similar to a weak strike.

[Cat Bath]

5 hours ago, Insider said:

As the die breaks part of the planchet did not come into contact with the die design so - no feathers.  The surface is similar to a weak strike.

This is highly localized and not consistent with a weak strike, such as I know them.

Please advise me if I'm wrong.

[Cat Bath]

6 hours ago, Insider said:

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Cat Bath
2X post

[Insider]

11 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

This is highly localized and not consistent with a weak strike, such as I know them.

Please advise me if I'm wrong.

A portion of the surface (any size) on an original coin can be missing due to several factors.  Some of the time it is due to a weak strike (dies not set properly, planchet out of tolerance).  Some of the time is is due to debris of some kind between the die and planchet.  Some of the time the design is missing due to wear on the die.  In each of these cases, on an original coin, the surface will have a similar look, either original p,lanchet marks or the impression of the debris. 

The center of the reverse on the coin you posted is opposite a deep part of the obverse die.  That is probably the main cause of the weakness we see.    

[RWB]

Might result from a clogged die or one with a central collapse. With the obvious cracks, I'd lean to a partial collapse.

[GoldFinger1969]

Cat Bath, did you check out Roger's book on Saints discussing the 1921 specifically and die cracks/breaks more generally ?

[Cat Bath]

9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Cat Bath, did you check out Roger's book on Saints discussing the 1921 specifically and die cracks/breaks more generally ?

I checked out the section on the 21 again and die cracks are mentioned as prevalent on this year.

The strange feather appearance isn't discussed.

I'd like to find a more advanced die state to check my prediction but am not having any luck.

[RWB]

12 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I checked out the section on the 21 again and die cracks are mentioned as prevalent on this year.

The strange feather appearance isn't discussed.

I'd like to find a more advanced die state to check my prediction but am not having any luck.

If an additional example can be located, the variety might be a good candidate for the next edition.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:54 AM, Coinbuf said:

 It is indeed unfortunate that coin facts was gutted in an attempt to rescue the firms reputation. 

What happened to Coin Facts ?

[Cat Bath]

Just now, GoldFinger1969 said:

What happened to Coin Facts ?

Laura & Brett

[Just Bob]

59 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What happened to Coin Facts ?

Click here for the link to the thread ATS

[GoldFinger1969]

Keep in mind some of us don't have the experience and knowledge of some of you vets on the backstage/gossip part of this hobby, so that's why I am a bit slow on the take .....I presume that those 2 people somehow got the picture feature or TrueView feature from the Coin Facts website/section removed ?

Edited November 10, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Coinbuf]

16 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What happened to Coin Facts ?

Sorry just now saw your reply.  The short version is that members of the board ats were using coinfacts to point out the ridiculous number of coins that were getting upgrades and upgrades on upgrades within months and even weeks.  The upshot of that was some dealers were furious because their high dollar cash cow customers were finding out about all these fresh upgrades and complaining about paying premium prices.  It is the opinion of many ats that a few of the favored dealers complained to PCGS and overnight suddenly all but the most recent images were removed from the site so that it is much harder now to id those coins that are getting constantly upgraded.   Now as new images are added for a coin/date/mm old ones are dropped off so you can only see a handful of coins for each even tho there are hundreds even thousands of images taken by PCGS which now only PCGS has access to.

[GoldFinger1969]

16 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Sorry just now saw your reply.  The short version is that members of the board ats were using coinfacts to point out the ridiculous number of coins that were getting upgrades and upgrades on upgrades within months and even weeks.  The upshot of that was some dealers were furious because their high dollar cash cow customers were finding out about all these fresh upgrades and complaining about paying premium prices.  It is the opinion of many ats that a few of the favored dealers complained to PCGS and overnight suddenly all but the most recent images were removed from the site so that it is much harder now to id those coins that are getting constantly upgraded.   Now as new images are added for a coin/date/mm old ones are dropped off so you can only see a handful of coins for each even tho there are hundreds even thousands of images taken by PCGS which now only PCGS has access to.

I get it.....and I don't like it.  Be transparent.  If you are upgrading, and being honest, you have nothing to hide.

Thanks for the update.

 

[Cat Bath]

Enter the law of unintended consequences

CoinFacts used to list all the graded coins that were TrueViewed (except ones that were cracked out and inserts returned)

CoinFacts now lists only coins that are TrueViewed in registry sets or showcases where the owner has set his preference to 'public' so they can be seen.

Registry set collectors are generally very knowledgeable & particular about the coins they select.

Dealers are not as particular about the coins they sell.

 

It took me several years to find my 08-D Motto in MS65. When a perspective buyer consults CoinFacts regarding a possible purchase of a MS65 08-D Motto from dealer X, he/she will see my coin.

He/she will also see 2 others that are just as spectacular and not particularly representative of the grade MS65. (previously CoinFacts had about 2 dozen MS65 coins that spanned the spectrum from A to C)

If you think this might be bad for dealers....The recent CAC obsession ATS has made the situation even more obscene.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Cat Bath

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm not a registry guy, but I understand that this involves high-powered dealers and buyers....and the impact that cracking out coins and getting them a higher grade means.

Biggest impact to me is that it means that the population data can be totally screwed up because of "double counting."  I wish NGC and PCGS would work together to eliminate that problem.  It benefits no one. 

[Cat Bath]

Back when I was obsessed with the 1920, I wanted a nice 64+ like I would like to have a 21 now   (no chance)

I remember well that the pop was 94 and there were TVs (TrueViews) for 75 of them. This struck me as odd because it was when TVs were still kind of new. 

I looked at them all and as you probably know the 20 is a mess. There was one that stood out because it was very nice & I kept seeing it over and over.

28 times if memory serves. This person submitted the same coin 28 times trying to get a MS65. I found another one that was represented 11 times. (and a few others with multiple submissions)

94-39=55...…I knew that I had to get a 64+ before folks caught on that there were probably about 1/2 what was assumed.

The pop now stands at 88 and I sincerely suspect it is WAY off.

BTW...There are only 2 PCGS MS65 1920 coins (top pop) midsouthcoins owns one and the other I can't find. Probably PEC?

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Cat Bath said:

Back when I was obsessed with the 1920, I wanted a nice 64+ like I would like to have a 21 now   (no chance)

I remember well that the pop was 94 and there were TVs (TrueViews) for 75 of them. This struck me as odd because it was when TVs were still kind of new. 

I looked at them all and as you probably know the 20 is a mess. There was one that stood out because it was very nice & I kept seeing it over and over.

28 times if memory serves. This person submitted the same coin 28 times trying to get a MS65. I found another one that was represented 11 times. (and a few others with multiple submissions)

94-39=55...…I knew that I had to get a 64+ before folks caught on that there were probably about 1/2 what was assumed.

The pop now stands at 88 and I sincerely suspect it is WAY off.

BTW...There are only 2 PCGS MS65 1920 coins (top pop) midsouthcoins owns one and the other I can't find. Probably PEC?

Whoa, you Saint guys are tracking individual coins. That’s pretty hardcore. 

[Cat Bath]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Whoa, you Saint guys are tracking individual coins. That’s pretty hardcore. 

It's not that hard. The largest top pop is the 1913 MS65 @ 17 coins

There are only 3 w/ top pops of 10 or more in addition to the 1913...….1908 NM MS69 @10...&...1928 MS67 @13

Many are 1, 2 or 3 and that's out of the entire production from 1907-1933 inclusive.

When one surfaces, we catch it's cert# before it goes dark again so we can have a picture. There are about 100 top pops in the whole series (MS not Proof)

[GoldFinger1969]

I wish there were hi-res scans done by a computer or today's detailed super-cameras that the TPGs used to correctly ID submitted coins.....bank the photos...and then prevent re-submissions.

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wish there were hi-res scans done by a computer or today's detailed super-cameras that the TPGs used to correctly ID submitted coins.....bank the photos...and then prevent re-submissions.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

[GoldFinger1969]

23 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I agree, wholeheartedly.

It would also be a good anti-counterfeiter measure.  The costs have come down....we have 4K or 8K or other super-scan capability that you could do with all coins or maybe just those over $1,000 or $100 or whatever threshold you want.

[Cat Bath]

22 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Whoa, you Saint guys are tracking individual coins. That’s pretty hardcore. 

The other odd thing about saint collectors is that we don't really collect die varieties.

There's a huge difference between the 08 NM type1 and the Type2 but there isn't even a notation on the insert. 

Some dealers try to get more from double/triple dies or RPMs but It doesn't seem we are all that interested.

[VKurtB]

37 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

The other odd thing about saint collectors is that we don't really collect die varieties.

There's a huge difference between the 08 NM type1 and the Type2 but there isn't even a notation on the insert. 

Some dealers try to get more from double/triple dies or RPMs but It doesn't seem we are all that interested.

You are your own little quirky niche, aren’t you? Just like VAMmers and Early American Coppers guys. Not that I object to quirkiness in specialties. Rather I find it extremely important and it should be encouraged. Too much sameness in this hobby.

Edited November 12, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/10/2020 at 11:19 PM, Cat Bath said:

I looked at them all and as you probably know the 20 is a mess. There was one that stood out because it was very nice & I kept seeing it over and over.28 times if memory serves. This person submitted the same coin 28 times trying to get a MS65. I found another one that was represented 11 times. (and a few others with multiple submissions)

How do you know someone submitted their coin 28 times trying to get an upgrade ?  I'm confused.....thx.

I just checked RWB's Saint DE book.  He has alot of commentary on the 1920's, 1st coin minted after they stopped striking in 1916 for WW I.  Using the (dated) price guide in the book, the 1920 in MS65 sells for $90,000 or so from 2012-15 but an MS-63 was only about $2,000 or so, give-or-take.  So there's probably a big spike to MS-64 esp. with a "+" or CAC.