DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Date is 1776. Bought it at a flea market a while ago. Took it to my regular coin shop to have them look at it. He said it is struck copper, King George, but wasn't sure if it would be considered a coin or token. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 Better pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Not sure what it is, but my sources do not show an authentic GB farthing, half penny, or penny for 1776. I wonder what sort of evasion they associate with it; maybe tax evasion, a favorite Continental hobby. DonaldM and RonnieR131 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 Hello JKK. From my own research. Evasion coins are counterfit British coins used during the Revolution. Struck and cast. Here is one article: https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/Evasion.1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbbpll Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 It looks like what they call a "blacksmith token", used primarily in Canada up to the 1830s. I don't know anything about them so maybe it leads you in the right direction or maybe you could quickly rule it out. DonaldM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, DonaldM said: Hello JKK. From my own research. Evasion coins are counterfit British coins used during the Revolution. Struck and cast. Here is one article: https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/Evasion.1.html Ah. Okay. I did not know about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Conder101 Posted August 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted August 13, 2020 Not an evasion piece, contemporary counterfeit. Don't know if it is British or American origin but I would guess British. Can't match it to any of the documented families in my reference. Highly unlikely it is a blacksmith token they are much cruder than this coin. I only have two family listing that include 1776 counterfeits, the Machens Mills Family and the Georgivs Triumpho Family and this 1776 rev doesn't match either if the 76 reverses for those families. There is a chance the date is 1775, the many of the counterfeiters deliberately made the 5 on their dies look very much like a 6. (And the fact that part of the digit is off the planchet doesn't help.) That would open up a lot of other possibilities that I don't want to try and go into right now 6 hours ago, JKK said: I wonder what sort of evasion they associate with it; maybe tax evasion The evasion refers to evading the anti-counterfeiting laws. Under the law at the time a coin was only a counterfeit if it was an EXACT copy of a regal coin. So the Evasion pieces took advantage of the general populations illiteracy and would make similar looking copper coins with mis-spelled legends, nonsense legends, or inscriptions that would look similar to people who couldn't ready such as GEORGE RULES instead of GEORGIUS REX. There is a rev where instead of BRITT ANIA it says BONNY GIRLS. Since the coins weren't exact copies they evaded a charge of counterfeiting. DonaldM, RonnieR131 and JKK 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 It looks like it was intended to replace a half penny. DonaldM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 Hello VKurtB. That is what the guy at fea market had it listed as. A "1776 British Half-Pence". I liked the date and the price was right so I scooped it up. When I got home I couldn't find a 1776 half-pence ever being minted, but seen a few articles about Evasion coins. If I submit it to NGC could they tell me what it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, DonaldM said: Hello VKurtB. That is what the guy at fea market had it listed as. A "1776 British Half-Pence". I liked the date and the price was right so I scooped it up. When I got home I couldn't find a 1776 half-pence ever being minted, but seen a few articles about Evasion coins. If I submit it to NGC could they tell me what it is? Go over to Ask NGC and check if they do these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 VKurtB, Yes. After I typed my reply to you I called NGC customer service. They can solve my mystery but I got to decide if it worth expense. LOL. I paid $23 for the coin and in my research and help of my local coin shop determined that IF it is a token it is valued at $40. If it is a British Evasion it could be between $200 - $1500. Got to decide if worth the risk of spending another $100 on a possible $40 token. 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenstang Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 (edited) It's possible that it is not a Half Penny but a Farthing. One in similar condition just sold on eBay for $45.00 Edited August 13, 2020 by Greenstang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 41 minutes ago, DonaldM said: VKurtB, Yes. After I typed my reply to you I called NGC customer service. They can solve my mystery but I got to decide if it worth expense. LOL. I paid $23 for the coin and in my research and help of my local coin shop determined that IF it is a token it is valued at $40. If it is a British Evasion it could be between $200 - $1500. Got to decide if worth the risk of spending another $100 on a possible $40 token. 🤔 My advice would be to research pictures of known real British Evasions, and compare yours with an extremely critical eye, not the “optimistic eye” that many new collectors fall prey to. In other words, act like a prosecutor trying to disprove your coin’s genuineness. If it still looks like the pictures to you, send ‘er in. (Git ‘er done.) DonaldM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l.cutler Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Read Conder101's post. It is positively not an evasion, the legends are correct. It is a counterfeit halfpenny plain and simple. During the latter part of the 18th century there were more counterfeit halfpennies in circulation than genuine. Some of these were made in America and some in Britain. The American made "Machin's Mill" pieces carry the highest premium but this piece is not one of these. It is most likely a British made counterfeit. 1776 pieces are quite popular because of the "magic" date. DonaldM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 Hello I.cutler. Google James Atlee. I believe this is one of his coins. He was known for counterfeitting, and prior to working with Manchin he made 1776 dated Georgivs III half pence. 4 things his counterfiets are known for 1) very sloped forehead. 2) Bust extending to rim. 3) Ribbon stretching to the "G". 4) Extended gap between "R" and "E" in REX. I could be wrong. I will try and find the article that has a known example of his work. I used to have it saved but got a new phone a couple months ago. Even if I am wrong, and my wife will tell you that happens a lot, a 240 year old British counterfeit is still cool. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinText/NYC-Vlack.html This article from Notre Dame, who has a large collection is pretty interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l.cutler Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 29 minutes ago, DonaldM said: Hello I.cutler. Google James Atlee. I believe this is one of his coins. He was known for counterfeitting, and prior to working with Manchin he made 1776 dated Georgivs III half pence. 4 things his counterfiets are known for 1) very sloped forehead. 2) Bust extending to rim. 3) Ribbon stretching to the "G". 4) Extended gap between "R" and "E" in REX. I could be wrong. I will try and find the article that has a known example of his work. I used to have it saved but got a new phone a couple months ago. Even if I am wrong, and my wife will tell you that happens a lot, a 240 year old British counterfeit is still cool. 🙂 Yep, well aware of Atlee and the Machin's coppers. I have actually collected them off and on for years. This one is definitely not one of them. There are collectors of other counterfeit coppers and many have been catalogued, but I never really got into them beyond the Machin's/Atlee coins so I don't have much info on them. DonaldM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 That is the wall I ran into, not a lot of information available. Besides Notre Dame article and University of Missouri article, the only other thing I found is one article by Coinweek. I appreciate the information. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 The current standard reference for the counterfeit farthings and half pence is "Contemporary Counterfeit Halfpenny & Farthing Families" and that was where I checked to try and find your coin. The two families I mentioned, Machens Mills Family and the Georgivs Triumpho Family, are the only two listed that include coins dated 1776 and your coin is not among them. That was why I wondered if it might actually be a 1775. But there are a LOT of families that include 1775 dated coins. Checking all of those will take some time (and there are also more contemporary counterfeits that aren't listed yet which is why the 300 page book I mentioned is also labeled Volume 1. No other volumes have come out yet. It is estimated that there may be as many as 10,000 varieties.) Would it be possible to get good FULL pictures of it out of the holder? 16 hours ago, DonaldM said: After I typed my reply to you I called NGC customer service. They can solve my mystery but I got to decide if it worth expense. Be careful on this. They will slab and identify Machins Mills contemporary counterfeits, but they may not slab other contemporary counterfeits, and if they do they may not fully identify them. So you might get the coin back in a bodybag with just the notation counterfeit, or not a type that we do. And if they do slab it it might just be noted as "contemporary counterfeit". Before you send it make SURE that they will identify it by variety. Otherwise it isn't worth sending. DonaldM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 NGC identified it as a Machins Mill coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Did they give the variety? DonaldM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldM Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 My coins are at the "scheduled for grading" status. They gave the description as "1776 Georgivs 1/2p Machins Mill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l.cutler Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Well you had me second guessing so I went over my references. There are 2 1776 Machin's Mill varieties and this is definitely not one of them. Compare to the photos here. https://www.novanumismatics.com/americas-machins-mills-contemporary-counterfeit-halfpence/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) That was my problem earlier, I couldn't get a match on either of the two 1776 Machins reverses. And I've just made another check and the obv doesn't match any of the known Machins obverses either That's why I strongly believe this is a British contemporary counterfeit, NOT a Machins. Edited September 10, 2020 by Conder101 l.cutler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 44 minutes ago, Conder101 said: That was my problem earlier, I couldn't get a match on either of the two 1776 Machins reverses. And I've just made another check and the obv doesn't match any of the known Machins obverses either That's why I strongly believe this is a British contemporary counterfeit, NOT a Machins. This is an example of where it would be helpful to know not only WHAT a TPGS has decided, but also WHY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 (edited) Since it hasn't actually gone in for grading yet, DonaldM says the status is SCHEDULED for grading, I would suspect they haven't decided anything yet. One we don't know how it was identified on the submitted invoice, and two they may have just put Machin's Mills because it is a counterfeit 1776 half penny and Machins Mills was known to have made 1776 dated counterfeit half pence. NGC is not known for their attribution accuracy so unless they give it a specific variety attribution (which will still then need to be verified) I would say they are just guessing at this point. And unless DonaldM paid for attribution, it will probably just be "rubber stamped" as a Machins Mills piece, which it isn't. Edited September 10, 2020 by Conder101 l.cutler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l.cutler Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 @DonaldM, Just wondering if you had an outcome on this coin yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
