Declined from registry set (but it’s a proof not billion) 2 2

[Early Releases]

Please see the email below. I believe this to be an error as the coin I wish to add to a registry set is a PROOF coin. But I have been asked to add it to a BULLION set. I believe that proofs deserve their own set and that the 1/4oz Kangaroo Proof coins that started in 2017 should have its own registry set  please can you add this if possible. 

 

Your request to add NGC certification 6013227-003 to your competitive set has been declined by NGC, but the coin can still be managed in your Collection Manager.

Here are the coin details:
Coin: NGC # 6013227-003
Description: 2020P AUSTRALIA G$25 Kangaroo First Releases
Grade: PF 70 ULTRA CAMEO

Admin Comments: ***** YOUR COIN IS ELIGIBLE IN THE FOLLOWING SET: Australia - Bullion Kangaroo Gold $25, 1989-Date, Proof THANK YOU.******

[Ali E.]

6 minutes ago, Early Releases said:

Please see the email below. I believe this to be an error as the coin I wish to add to a registry set is a PROOF coin. But I have been asked to add it to a BULLION set. I believe that proofs deserve their own set and that the 1/4oz Kangaroo Proof coins that started in 2017 should have its own registry set  please can you add this if possible. 

 

Your request to add NGC certification 6013227-003 to your competitive set has been declined by NGC, but the coin can still be managed in your Collection Manager.

Here are the coin details:
Coin: NGC # 6013227-003
Description: 2020P AUSTRALIA G$25 Kangaroo First Releases
Grade: PF 70 ULTRA CAMEO

Admin Comments: ***** YOUR COIN IS ELIGIBLE IN THE FOLLOWING SET: Australia - Bullion Kangaroo Gold $25, 1989-Date, Proof THANK YOU.******

Hello, Early Releases.

Thanks for your interest. The Kangaroo, Koala, and Kookaburra series are quite popular and have separate subcategories and sets here: https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive/australia/australia-bullion/. If you prefer a different set structure, you may create a Custom Registry Set. If you need further assistance, please let us know.

[Early Releases]

3 hours ago, Ali E. said:

Hello, Early Releases.

Thanks for your interest. The Kangaroo, Koala, and Kookaburra series are quite popular and have separate subcategories and sets here: https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive/australia/australia-bullion/. If you prefer a different set structure, you may create a Custom Registry Set. If you need further assistance, please let us know.

Ok thanks  

Would it be possible to change the name “bullion” to something like “Bullion & Proofs” or just move the word “Bullion” in its entirety  

Because proofs shouldn’t be listed under a category called Bullion IMO.  

[Early Releases]

I also tried adding it under the bullion section as suggested. Even though it is a PROOF coin. And there is not even a slot for 2020.

I do not think this is the correct section and that it should have its own set under proofs.

 

If i select the above then the next stage only allows me to choose up to 2016. And no proof.

[Ali E.]

16 hours ago, Early Releases said:

I also tried adding it under the bullion section as suggested. Even though it is a PROOF coin. And there is not even a slot for 2020.

I do not think this is the correct section and that it should have its own set under proofs.
 

If i select the above then the next stage only allows me to choose up to 2016. And no proof.

Hello, ER.

Please follow the directions in the emails we sent on Monday. You will need to create a new Kangaroo set under Australia-Bullion (not a Gold $25 commemorative set.) Thank you and let us know if you need further assistance.

[Early Releases]

7 hours ago, Ali E. said:

Hello, ER.

Please follow the directions in the emails we sent on Monday. You will need to create a new Kangaroo set under Australia-Bullion (not a Gold $25 commemorative set.) Thank you and let us know if you need further assistance.

Thank you. I have requested a new set under that. So hopefully that gets accepted

[Ali E.]

13 hours ago, Early Releases said:

Thank you. I have requested a new set under that. So hopefully that gets accepted

Hello, ER.

We do not see you have created any set under this set type/category:  Australia - Bullion: Kangaroo Gold $25, 1989-Date, Proof.

You will need to:

1) Log in to NGCcoin.com

2) Click this link: https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive/australia/australia-bullion/3641/

3) Click Create a set.

Thank you.

[BlakeEik]

On 8/11/2020 at 6:40 PM, Early Releases said:

Because proofs shouldn’t be listed under a category called Bullion IMO.  

Proofs and bullion coins are not mutually exclusive. A proof is a type of strike, and bullion coins are made of high purity precious metals. Bullion coins, like all coins, could be produced with different strikes including proofs, reverse proofs, enhanced proofs, uncirculated mint state, etc.

[Early Releases]

9 minutes ago, BlakeEik said:

Proofs and bullion coins are not mutually exclusive. A proof is a type of strike, and bullion coins are made of high purity precious metals. Bullion coins, like all coins, could be produced with different strikes including proofs, reverse proofs, enhanced proofs, uncirculated mint state, etc.

A proof is not a type of bullion coin like you are implying. 

I agree that there different qualities in strike even between bullion coins. And one mint could use a strike that they class as bullion but other mints would class as proof.

But a Mint will sell a coin as a proof or as a bullion coin.

And this Kanagroo coin is specially sold by the mint as a Proof coin. It is not sold as a “Bullion coin with a proof strike” 

I know of no major mint that will say a coin can be both a bullion coin and a proof coin at the same time. I suppose you could use different dies if you really wanted to finish a coin one side in proof finish and the other with a lower quality bullion finish.

Anyway irrespective of anything, the Kangaroo coin I am referring to is specifically sold and marketed as a Proof coin by The Perth Mint. It is a proof. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Early Releases

[BlakeEik]

2 hours ago, Early Releases said:

A proof is not a type of bullion coin like you are implying. 

I agree that there different qualities in strike even between bullion coins. And one mint could use a strike that they class as bullion but other mints would class as proof.

But a Mint will sell a coin as a proof or as a bullion coin.

And this Kanagroo coin is specially sold by the mint as a Proof coin. It is not sold as a “Bullion coin with a proof strike” 

I know of no major mint that will say a coin can be both a bullion coin and a proof coin at the same time. I suppose you could use different dies if you really wanted to finish a coin one side in proof finish and the other with a lower quality bullion finish.

Anyway irrespective of anything, the Kangaroo coin I am referring to is specifically sold and marketed as a Proof coin by The Perth Mint. It is a proof. 

I have many coins that are both bullion and proofs.  If you are talking about a name the Australian mint gave to a series of coins, fine, but claiming "no major mint will say a coin can be both a bullion coin and a proof coin at the same time" is theory you alone hold.   Here is link to a registry set you claim should not exist - proof bullion produced by a major mint and certified by NGC. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive/united-states/american-eagles-and-bullion-coins/7668/

Is this the Kangroo coin you say is "Proof" not bullion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Silver_Kangaroo_(bullion)

If so, alert wikipedia - they got it wrong too. No mention of "proof" but bullion referenced several times.

There are lots of resources on line that can help sort this information for you.

[Early Releases]

6 minutes ago, BlakeEik said:

I have many coins that are both bullion and proofs.  If you are talking about a name the Australian mint gave to a series of coins, fine, but claiming "no major mint will say a coin can be both a bullion coin and a proof coin at the same time" is theory you alone hold.   Here is link to a registry set you claim should not exist - proof bullion produced by a major mint and certified by NGC. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive/united-states/american-eagles-and-bullion-coins/7668/

Is this the Kangroo coin you say is "Proof" not bullion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Silver_Kangaroo_(bullion)

If so, alert wikipedia - they got it wrong too. No mention of "proof" but bullion referenced several times.

There are lots of resources on line that can help sort this information for you.

If you wish to believe that a coin can be a proof and a bullion coin at the same time (and I am talking about one coin, not two different versions of the same coin) then it is your prerogative.

You have given a link to a wikipedia page that is about a silver bullion coin, of course it doesn't say proof  and if you have any issue with a Wikipedia page you should speak to them, I am not going to. Note that the coin you linked to is a completely different coin to the Kangaroo Coin I am referring to, you didn't even get a link to the correct metal. 

Just because NGC list a proof coin under Bullion doesn't mean that the coin is both a bullion and proof coin.
 

Quote

Here is link to a registry set you claim should not exist

I never stated that a registry set could not exist. 

 

Quote

There are lots of resources on line that can help sort this information for you.

Thank you for your kind help.

I believe that a proof and bullion are different and that a coin can not be both a bullion and a proof coin at the same time. You are free to believe what you want  

[BlakeEik]

Good luck to you....  you need it...

[Fenntucky Mike]

If you're talking about the difference between an investment-grade bullion coin and commemorative or numismatic bullion coin then yes, there is a difference, in general it is the condition, strike, and rarity. But despite the differences they are still comprised of the same stuff, precious metal/s, which in general (for modern NCLT) lumps all of them into the same group, bullion. From which they are broken down further into smaller groups by country, series, MS, PF, etc. Your coin is a bullion coin, not in the sense that it is only worth its bullion content but that it is comprised of precious metal/s. They don't arrange these sets based on a coins value or what type of investment it is.

If you were to take one of your proof coins comprised of a precious metal and drag it around the parking lot, it would most likely loose all value above its worth in bullion but it would still be a proof. A bullion proof (impaired).

[Early Releases]

4 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

If you were to take one of your proof coins comprised of a precious metal and drag it around the parking lot, it would most likely loose all value above its worth in bullion but it would still be a proof. A bullion proof (impaired).

Thank you for your reply.

I would argue that in that case it is then a “Proof coin that has been damaged and therefore selling as bullion” 

But the damage doesn’t take away the fact that originally this coin was minted as a proof, marketed as a proof, and sold as a proof. (Despite NGC’s categorising proofs underneath bullion in their registry)

I would say that when a coin is damaged you could argue it is “bullion proof”  but NGC doesn’t have categories for damaged coins.

If you go to any dealer and state that you are looking for a “Bullion proof” I am sure they will be puzzled and will ask you, are you looking for a bullion or a proof coin?

If you want to state that all proof coins are bullion because they contain precious metals, then we can be really pedantic and look up the definition of bullion in the Oxford English Dictionary and discover that no coins are in fact bullion under this definition, unless valued by weight.

And as you are aware there are bullion coins that have a premium added to them, e.g. a very old panda coin may sell at a substantial premium to the metal weight, despite being a “bullion” coin. 

noun

noun: bullion

1. 1. 

   gold or silver in bulk before coining, or valued by weight.

   "gold bullion"

    
2. 2. 

   ornamental braid or fringing made with twists of gold or silver thread.

   "bullion cords”

[Early Releases]

20 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Your coin is a bullion coin, not in the sense that it is only worth its bullion content but that it is comprised of precious metal/s

This I disagree with  but you are perfectly fine to believe it is a bullion coin.

If a coin has PF in the grade, then my opinion is that it is a proof coin. Not a bullion coin that is a proof.

And this is not just my opinion but widely accepted in the precious metals community. Perhaps the NGC community here is different in that a lot of members here choose to call a proof coin a bullion coin that is a proof, because the way NGC have set up the registry. But that is their choice  

Would be interesting what NGC’s official answer is. If they just simply categorise Proofs under Bullion because of the way their registry set is set up. Or if they do believe that proofs are a type of bullion. I.e there are bullion bullion and bullion proofs. (Something which I have never seen any dealer or mint sell a coin as) 
 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Early Releases

[BlakeEik]

NGC or anyone else cannot provide an answer to someone too stubborn to listen.

[Early Releases]

1 hour ago, BlakeEik said:

NGC or anyone else cannot provide an answer to someone too stubborn to listen.

@Ali E. please can you enable the ignore feature so I can ignore this member.

I get this page when I go to it:

Edited August 22, 2020 by Early Releases

[BlakeEik]

I was just trying to help with your question. Sorry it did not help you.

[Ali E.]

On 8/22/2020 at 3:01 PM, Early Releases said:

@Ali E. please can you enable the ignore feature so I can ignore this member.

I get this page when I go to it:

Hello, ER.

Thank you for the information. I have forwarded your screenshot to our programmers. We will get back to you as soon we have an answer from them. 

[Matt G]

Hello @Early Releases,

Your request has been fulfilled. Please be sure that you are logged into your account and click on the down arrow in the top right corner while on the chat boards. You will see an option to "Ignore Users."

[Early Releases]

7 minutes ago, Matt G said:

Hello @Early Releases,

Your request has been fulfilled. Please be sure that you are logged into your account and click on the down arrow in the top right corner while on the chat boards. You will see an option to "Ignore Users."

Same issue @Matt G, the link is broken. I am trying to access the same way as you are suggesting to do, but isn’t working