NGC Certifies Special Releases from US Mint Reserves with 2020 West Point Mint Hoard Attribution
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The unusual sale of prior-year bullion coins from the US Mint comes as the demand for precious metals continues to skyrocket.  Read more

 
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The mint released 2016W Silver eagles in 2019 also, which were certified by NGC as the "2019 West Point Hoard." Is this going to be a yearly thing now? 

By the way, why is the mint hoarding silver eagles?

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1 hour ago, Morpheus1967 said:

it's nothing but a money grab

Well, they have to make money, and they wouldn't do it if people didn't "buy" it, so I'm happy to just ignore the stuff I'm not interested in.

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16 hours ago, kbbpll said:

Well, they have to make money, and they wouldn't do it if people didn't "buy" it, so I'm happy to just ignore the stuff I'm not interested in.

I am fully aware they need to make money.  But I would bet the majority of the folks who buy this will be doing so to complete their registry set, not because they want it.  Take it out of the slab and tell me the difference between a 2017 eagle proof and one from the 2020 "West Point Hoard".  

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It's a money grab, but is it a grab by the TPG, or a grab by the buyers of the coin from the mint who probably requested the special label.

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I receive 1 or 2 of the annual OGP Silver Eagles by subscription, and also pick up a 70 grade slab from MCM or whom ever to keep up with the series.  I don't bother with the Congrats or Special Ed. Coin because it's the same thing under another wrapper- and so are the "Hoard" issues.  Will these 'rare finds' amount to anything? Who cares, it's not like finding bags of Morgan's.

I can understand the value to the Mints' Bottom Line, all of which has No good meaning for the true Collector.  Compared to the old established practice of melting down unsold stock for remanufacture, which also keeps Mintage totals down, versus selling at Retail, makes it more attractive, especially if you're now colluding with dealers and Graders to Buy 'em up in bulk, and certify them as Whores . . I mean Hoards?  Are we to thank Mr. Trumps 'Grand Menush' for this insight?  I believe we are witnessing that 2020 will be going out with a BANG, as the Mint shoots itself in the foor!

Edited by BrokeDaddy
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On 7/2/2020 at 6:45 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

Take it out of the slab and tell me the difference between a 2017 eagle proof and one from the 2020 "West Point Hoard".  

Inherently bad form to even suggest this but an entirely legitimate query.

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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2 hours ago, Morpheus1967 said:

What are you talking about.  

An encapsulated coin represents a population the sanctity of which must be honored if it is to have any meaning at all for a hobby beset by unreported de-encapsulations and mass meltings of unknown quantities of precious metals.  A Hoard is simply a point of reference like S.S.C.A. shipwreck gold helpful in establishing provenance. Price is dictated by supply and demand.  Some of the more notable Hoard releases have shifted the orbits of some major compilations for all time.

 

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6 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

An encapsulated coin represents a population the sanctity of which must be honored if it is to have any meaning at all for a hobby beset by unreported de-encapsulations and mass meltings of unknown quantities of precious metals.  A Hoard is simply a point of reference like S.S.C.A. shipwreck gold helpful in establishing provenance. Price is dictated by supply and demand.  Some of the more notable Hoard releases have shifted the orbits of some major compilations for all time.

 

The "crack out" game is so ubiquitous that any hope of "encapsulated coin represents a population the sanctity of which must be honored if it is to have any meaning at all for a hobby" is a ship long since sailed. There is exactly ZERO sanctity of any population report of any slabbed coins. The number of truly unique coins slabbed is a small fraction of the number of slabbings, except perhaps for low value moderns. People are not returning crack out labels for deletion from the populations. I've walked many an ANA coin show watching dealers who have just purchased slabbed coins from a collector proceed to place the slabs on a chair leg and literally stomp on the slabs with a boot heel to break them open in order to resubmit them. Just a normal buy/sell spread is not enough for many dealers; they want the "upgrade plus buy/sell" margin. In other words, if they look at a coin and they don't think they can win the "crack out" game, they'll never buy the coin in the first place.

Edited by VKurtB
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2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The "crack out" game is so ubiquitous that any hope of "encapsulated coin represents a population the sanctity of which must be honored if it is to have any meaning at all for a hobby" is a ship long since sailed. There is exactly ZERO sanctity of any population report of any slabbed coins. The number of truly unique coins slabbed is a small fraction of the number of slabbings, except perhaps for low value moderns. People are not returning crack out labels for deletion from the populations. I've walked many an ANA coin show watching dealers who have just purchased slabbed coins from a collector proceed to place the slabs on a chair leg and literally stomp on the slabs with a boot heel to break them open in order to resubmit them. Just a normal buy/sell spread is not enough for many dealers; they want the "upgrade plus buy/sell" margin. In other words, if they look at a coin and they don't think they can win the "crack out" game, they'll never buy the coin in the first place.

I find it absolutely despicable that the hobby I enjoyed as a child (where Morgan dollars were available for the asking from the local bank) has descended to the level that what I chose to regard as rumor is a robust phenomenon with a name: crack-out.  The last time I violated a tenet of my religion, and requested cross-grading service, I was pleasantly surprised when one was up-graded and all labels were returned to me unsolicited and I saw that the necessary adjustments had been made to the respective TPG populations involved.

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34 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I find it absolutely despicable that the hobby I enjoyed as a child (where Morgan dollars were available for the asking from the local bank) has descended to the level that what I chose to regard as rumor is a robust phenomenon with a name: crack-out.  The last time I violated a tenet of my religion, and requested cross-grading service, I was pleasantly surprised when one was up-graded and all labels were returned to me unsolicited and I saw that the necessary adjustments had been made to the respective TPG populations involved.

"Despicable" is a good word to describe much of what all too many dealers engage in routinely as an ongoing business practice. "Cross grading" is the least of it. There are many times more cases in which a coin from TPG Firm A is cracked out and returned repeatedly to TPG Firm A (not B or C or D) over and over until the desired grade is obtained. As long as a coin has a high "delta" from one extra point, this will continue and accelerate. Every submission increments the population report, but there are no more coins. Look for "high delta" coins and notice how frequently the "one grade too low" pieces are seemingly rarer in some dealers' inventories than the higher grade. I call this point the "hockey stick" grade, at which the "delta" suddenly explodes upward. Perhaps this is why lower value moderns seem immune; there is no hockey stick grade.

 

Whether the "pay off" is moolah (for a dealer), or registry points (for a collector who sees collecting as a competitive sport) is immaterial. An incentive is an incentive, and greedy people act on incentives.

Edited by VKurtB
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7 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

"Despicable" is a good word to describe much of what all too many dealers engage in routinely as an ongoing business practice. "Cross grading" is the least of it. There are many times more cases in which a coin from TPG Firm A is cracked out and returned repeatedly to TPG Firm A (NOT B or C or D) over and over until the desired grade is obtained. As long as a coin has a high "delta" from one extra point, this will continue and accelerate.

Here's where my "rank amateur" status is confirmed:  I honestly assumed the photographs taken by TPG were akin to the identification scanners used by the Gemological Institute (or similar concern) which records the unique markers on coins, much like DNA, to discourage theft, counterfeiting, etc.for all posterity so that if you were to resubmit a coin some guy further down the grading line would exclaim, "Hey Mike, com'ere a minute will you. Where've we seen this before?"

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1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Here's where my "rank amateur" status is confirmed:  I honestly assumed the photographs taken by TPG were akin to the identification scanners used by the Gemological Institute (or similar concern) which records the unique markers on coins, much like DNA, to discourage theft, counterfeiting, etc.for all posterity so that if you were to resubmit a coin some guy further down the grading line would exclaim, "Hey Mike, com'ere a minute will you. Where've we seen this before?"

Only at that other TPG and only with a small subset of über-high end material.

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I do not want to hurt anyones feelings with what I am about to say but here it goes.  Coin collecting is suppose to be fun.  At least thats what I believe.  Some people collect vintage coins and others like myself collect modern coins.  There is really no difference but personal preference.  So now let me help you understand the difference as simple as possible between vintage collectors and modern collectors.

vintage collectors are looking for three main things:  The coin should be considered for clarity, rarity and eye appeal at the best price a collector can afford.

modern collector are looking for five main things.  The coin should be considered for elusiveness, extreme, absolute, condition rarity and eye appeal at the best price a collector can afford.

here is an example for vintage silver dollar collectors:  1893s  mintage: 100,000 coins,  ms67: 1 (ngc census report), price: $1,150,000.00 (ngc price quide). Maybe higher.

here is an example for modern silver dollar collectors:  2012w (limited edition proof set) mintage: 50,129 silver eagles, pf70: 3 (ngc census report), price: $850.00 (ngc price guide).  Price is way off!!!

These are just examples to compare.  I hope this clarifies the difference in vintage and modern collecting. So now I will close and wish all coin collectors happy treasure hunting.

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On July 16, 2020 at 5:14 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I find it absolutely despicable that the hobby I enjoyed as a child (where Morgan dollars were available for the asking from the local bank) has descended to the level that what I chose to regard as rumor is a robust phenomenon with a name: crack-out.  The last time I violated a tenet of my religion, and requested cross-grading service, I was pleasantly surprised when one was up-graded and all labels were returned to me unsolicited and I saw that the necessary adjustments had been made to the respective TPG populations involved.

Question - if the label was returned to you, did you send the label to the TPG that originally slabbed the coin before crossing it over? If not - they would not update their census or population numbers.

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1 hour ago, working mans hoard said:

I do not want to hurt anyones feelings with what I am about to say but here it goes.  Coin collecting is suppose to be fun.  At least thats what I believe.  Some people collect vintage coins and others like myself collect modern coins.  There is really no difference but personal preference.  So now let me help you understand the difference as simple as possible between vintage collectors and modern collectors.

vintage collectors are looking for three main things:  The coin should be considered for clarity, rarity and eye appeal at the best price a collector can afford.

modern collector are looking for five main things.  The coin should be considered for elusiveness, extreme, absolute, condition rarity and eye appeal at the best price a collector can afford.

here is an example for vintage silver dollar collectors:  1893s  mintage: 100,000 coins,  ms67: 1 (ngc census report), price: $1,150,000.00 (ngc price quide). Maybe higher.

here is an example for modern silver dollar collectors:  2012w (limited edition proof set) mintage: 50,129 silver eagles, pf70: 3 (ngc census report), price: $850.00 (ngc price guide).  Price is way off!!!

These are just examples to compare.  I hope this clarifies the difference in vintage and modern collecting. So now I will close and wish all coin collectors happy treasure hunting.

How do YOU determine what others - whether vintage or modern collectors - are looking for? Different collectors care about different things.

Additionally, any conclusions you reach are likely to be faulty, if you’re basing them on mintages (but not taking the estimated number of survivors into consideration) and published price guides (but ignoring actual transactions).

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1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Question - if the label was returned to you, did you send the label to the TPG that originally slabbed the coin before crossing it over? If not - they would not update their census or population numbers.

No, I did not. As a dyed-in-the wool, card-carrying census stalker I asked myself a simple question:  what is the likelihood that my three (3) cross-grade requests, involving foreign coins over a hundred years old at the upper-most grading tiers, would be honored "simultaneously" with submissions from another source for the years involved?  The odds would be DNA-like astronomical. One in a quadrillion? All the necessary (correct) adjustments had already been made. If I am wrong, I have some work to do.

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2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

How do YOU determine what others - whether vintage or modern collectors - are looking for? Different collectors care about different things.

Additionally, any conclusions you reach are likely to be faulty, if you’re basing them on mintages (but not taking the estimated number of survivors into consideration) and published price guides (but ignoring actual transactions).

I am Spartacus.  I am inclined to agree, and will even go further: when your particular set is "complete" and you are fully-invested but there is still room for upgrading, you will take your cue from "all-in Jeopardy James" and take the plunge irrespective of the leading economic indicators otherwise your set will languish in the purgatory of infinite dormancy.

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49 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

No, I did not. As a dyed-in-the wool, card-carrying census stalker I asked myself a simple question:  what is the likelihood that my three (3) cross-grade requests, involving foreign coins over a hundred years old at the upper-most grading tiers, would be honored "simultaneously" with submissions from another source for the years involved?  The odds would be DNA-like astronomical. One in a quadrillion? All the necessary (correct) adjustments had already been made. If I am wrong, I have some work to do.

I believe you are wrong on this one.

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1 hour ago, Zebo said:

I believe you are wrong on this one.

I am sorry to hear that because what it implies is the TPG to which coins are submitted record just the submission and leave the other TPG twisting in the wind.  Unbelievable! Thanks.

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30 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I am sorry to hear that because what it implies is the TPG to which coins are submitted record just the submission and leave the other TPG twisting in the wind.  Unbelievable! Thanks.

That's exactly how it is and if you do not return the label from the crossed over coin - they will not update their census even though you send electronic proof of the cross over and a copy of the certificate.  And you wonder why the census/population reports are overstated.

Edited by Zebo
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8 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I am sorry to hear that because what it implies is the TPG to which coins are submitted record just the submission and leave the other TPG twisting in the wind.  Unbelievable! Thanks.

You’re the submitter and the grading label is yours. I see nothing wrong with the submitter being the one whose responsibility it is to get the label to the other grading company.

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14 hours ago, working mans hoard said:

I do not want to hurt anyones feelings with what I am about to say but here it goes.  Coin collecting is suppose to be fun.  At least thats what I believe.  Some people collect vintage coins and others like myself collect modern coins.  There is really no difference but personal preference.  So now let me help you understand the difference as simple as possible between vintage collectors and modern collectors.

vintage collectors are looking for three main things:  The coin should be considered for clarity, rarity and eye appeal at the best price a collector can afford.

modern collector are looking for five main things.  The coin should be considered for elusiveness, extreme, absolute, condition rarity and eye appeal at the best price a collector can afford.

here is an example for vintage silver dollar collectors:  1893s  mintage: 100,000 coins,  ms67: 1 (ngc census report), price: $1,150,000.00 (ngc price quide). Maybe higher.

here is an example for modern silver dollar collectors:  2012w (limited edition proof set) mintage: 50,129 silver eagles, pf70: 3 (ngc census report), price: $850.00 (ngc price guide).  Price is way off!!!

These are just examples to compare.  I hope this clarifies the difference in vintage and modern collecting. So now I will close and wish all coin collectors happy treasure hunting.

There is also a huge difference because if you crack the 1893S out of the slab, that's what you still have.  A 1893S morgan.  However, if you crack the 2012w eagle form the LE set out of the slab, it is literally no different than any of the other 2012 proofs.  Also, the 50,129 is not the mintage for the 2012W proof..  It is the number of limited edition sets they sold.  The actual total mintage for the 2012w proof is 877,731.  

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10 hours ago, Zebo said:

That's exactly how it is and if you do not return the label from the crossed over coin - they will not update their census even though you send electronic proof of the cross over and a copy of the certificate.  And you wonder why the census/population reports are overstated.

Makes sense.  Will do.  Tks.

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