1795 Draped Bust Silver Dollar, Real or Counterfeit? 0

[Kariverson]

Hi, I'm new here, I've started collecting some coins recently and I came across this one, peaked my interest and got it in a trade.
Size and weight matches known specimens and it's non magnetic. Does appear silver.
I'm still leaning towards fake myself.
What do you think?

[JKK]

Fake or replica. I see many discrepancies between this one and a known authentic one.

[Just Bob]

I concur.

Since it is not clearly marked as a copy, it is not in compliance with the Hobby Protection Act, and is illegal to sell.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Just Bob

[Kariverson]

8 hours ago, JKK said:

Fake or replica. I see many discrepancies between this one and a known authentic one.

Thank you both! Would you care to elaborate a bit on the discrepancies, so I can maybe tell myself easier next time? 

[JKK]

2 minutes ago, Kariverson said:

Thank you both! Would you care to elaborate a bit on the discrepancies, so I can maybe tell myself easier next time? 

It is not customary for us to give specifics about counterfeit/replica identification. However, if you were to look up an image of a known authentic one, and started to compare its layout to this one, I think you'd find that illuminating. Your instincts were correct, so well done there. We do see a couple of fakes a week.

This issue is in a very select frequent faker category (along with 1776 Continental Dollars, 1804 silver dollars, 1943 copper pennies, etc.), if you will, so I for one always start by assuming it counterfeit, with the burden of proof on showing authenticity. I have yet to see anyone post an owned real one.

[Kariverson]

2 hours ago, JKK said:

It is not customary for us to give specifics about counterfeit/replica identification. However, if you were to look up an image of a known authentic one, and started to compare its layout to this one, I think you'd find that illuminating. Your instincts were correct, so well done there. We do see a couple of fakes a week.

This issue is in a very select frequent faker category (along with 1776 Continental Dollars, 1804 silver dollars, 1943 copper pennies, etc.), if you will, so I for one always start by assuming it counterfeit, with the burden of proof on showing authenticity. I have yet to see anyone post an owned real one.

Thank you very much. I'll visit an ngc certified partner in my city soon and I can take it with me. He can show me the ropes a bit so I don't get fakes again, right? 

[Just Bob]

6 hours ago, JKK said:

It is not customary for us to give specifics about counterfeit/replica identification.

This isn't because we like to be jerks, or we are trying to keep the information to ourselves. We simply don't want to give counterfeiters any assistance, if at all possible. It has long been suspected that they follow  threads like this one.

Welcome to the forum.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Just Bob

[Kariverson]

52 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

This isn't because we like to be jerks, or we are trying to keep the information to ourselves. We simply don't want to give counterfeiters any assistance, if at all possible. It has long been suspected that they follow  threads like this one.

Welcome to the forum.

Yes of course I kind of figured out it was for that. I'll go to an ngc partner to my city as I mentioned to see if he can help me identify me a bit easier. 

[JKK]

6 hours ago, Kariverson said:

Thank you very much. I'll visit an ngc certified partner in my city soon and I can take it with me. He can show me the ropes a bit so I don't get fakes again, right? 

That would seem a good approach. There are a couple of good books on the subject, but in fact, you have your best weapon in your hand as you read this. The best, best, best thing you can do is look at a lot of coins. The color, images, lettering, details all should look in a finite number of certain ways. Pick a real one, pick one single aspect, and compare the two.

And thanks for understanding the reasoning. It is as JustBob put it, sort of a civic duty.

[bernard55]

if you line up the profile, against a real 1795 there are differences. obviously angle of picture makes a difference however this appears to be quite far off from appearances. 

[Conder101]

On 6/21/2020 at 10:42 PM, Just Bob said:

Since it is not clearly marked as a copy, it is not in compliance with the Hobby Protection Act, and is illegal to sell.

Unless it was made before 1973.  If it was then it is perfectly legal.  The HPA only applies to pieces made AFTER the passage of the Act.

 

16 hours ago, bernard55 said:

if you line up the profile, against a real 1795 there are differences. obviously angle of picture makes a difference however this appears to be quite far off from appearances. 

The problem is you are comparing two different die varieties,  The OP coin is based on the 1795 B-14 variety and the overlay you have made is of the obv of B-15.  Since the obverse were made by hand and the date letters and stars punched in individually, two different obverse will show different positions like your overlay.  If you overlayed a B-14 obv you will find the match up will be about perfect.  It IS a counterfeit though.  (Vampire hub)

Edited June 23, 2020 by Conder101

[bernard55]

ah, sorry, my mistake.  here is the B-14 with the nose on both shots lined up.  I'm going to try to figure out how to do this using opencv.  the delta is probably due to angle of shot. Now I'll be looking for bite marks on everything :-) 

Edited June 23, 2020 by bernard55

[kbbpll]

4 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Vampire hub

What is a "vampire hub"? Is it because of the two dots in the field front of the neck?

[bernard55]

[Kariverson]

Yes, I did read about the "vampire hubs" while researching. Confirmed my suspicions. Not to mention it came with a 1804 one as well haha. No one is THAT lucky. 

[Conder101]

They used a 1795 B-14 dollar that had those "fang marks" (there are other marks as well)  to make a hub.  Then they ground the date off and used it to make undated dies.  They could then punch any date they wished into the die.  You can find these "Vampire Hub" dollars with every date from 1795 to 1804.

 

Of course that means that somewhere out there there is a REAL 1795 B-14 dollar with those two marks in the neck.  And I suspect whoever owns it is going to have real headaches trying to sell it someday.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Conder101

[Tue Rye Windfeld]

Very interesting. I have one and I'm just not sure if it is real or not. I have been to two very old, very skilled coin shops and they did not know. The weight is within the tolerance (0,5 grams under, its worn) the ping sounds genuine although higher pitch than other solver coins i own, the dimensions and thickness is right, the lettering on the side is worn but visible, it does not even smell of metal and the coin shop tested it and says that it's 90 per cent silver. It just seems FAKE??? Is there real silver fakes out there?? How can I tell, who can tell and what the heck do I do? Really hoping for some expertise help here. I am based in Denmark and have plans to take it to Bruun Rasmussen auctions next weekend and see if they know. Regards form Copenhagen.

[Greenstang]

Quote

 Is there real silver fakes out there?? How can I tell, who can tell and what the heck do I do? 

 Post a clear picture of both sides. Most fakes are pretty easy to identify. Someone here should be able to help you.

[Tue Rye Windfeld]

What do you say?

[Kariverson]

1 minute ago, Tue Rye Windfeld said:

What do you say?

Sorry you must have not uploaded them correctly. Images are tiny. 

[RWB]

On 6/23/2020 at 7:58 AM, Conder101 said:

The HPA only applies to pieces made AFTER the passage of the Act.

Including those made in Colorado, in the shadow of a Federal prison.

[Tue Rye Windfeld]

Sorry here we go. This is the best I can do. 

[Tue Rye Windfeld]

10 hours ago, Kariverson said:

Sorry you must have not uploaded them correctly. Images are tiny. 

I have tried with better pictures now

[Conder101]

Well for starters it isn't the B14 variety  which is what most of the fake 1795 Draped busts copy.  The details and wear look good if the weight is right, and the edge isn't reeded I would say it has a good chance of being real.

[Tue Rye Windfeld]

21 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

Well for starters it isn't the B14 variety  which is what most of the fake 1795 Draped busts copy.  The details and wear look good if the weight is right, and the edge isn't reeded I would say it has a good chance of being real.

Super! The edge has the inscription it is supposed to have also. Thanks.