Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/9/2022 at 11:57 PM, Elite Collection said:

Yup, that's pretty much true for a lot of other ultra rarities, the 1913 liberty nickel looks just like every other liberty nickel except for the date, but it's 10,000x the price of the same grade 1912 liberty nickel. Same goes for the 1804 dollar or the 1894-S dime. 

Did you know that some Treasury officials into the 1950's -- maybe later -- said they'd be OK with seizing those coins ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:08 AM, VKurtB said:

Geez, MORE “whataboutism”?!?!?!

What else have I got to do ?  Can't outbid EC for those nice coins of his !! 

[VKurtB]

On 5/9/2022 at 11:07 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Bar talk.  I heard someone say the other day he wanted to kick Joe B's in with this inflation, but I didn't call the Secret Service with a legitimate threat.

The Court felt otherwise. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/9/2022 at 11:08 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you know that some Treasury officials into the 1950's -- maybe later -- said they'd be OK with seizing those coins ? 

It is now 2022 and I’d be totally okay with those coins being seized. 

[EliteCollection]

The difference between the 1933 DE and the 1928 coins or 1913 nickels is that the government has always (or at least soon after the coins got out) considered the 1933 DE illegal and went after every instance of the coin they can find. It's an embarrassment for the government to have any 1933 DE out there. For the bag of 1928 and the 5 1913 nickels, these coins were traded legally for so long that it wouldn't make sense to go after the current owners. Whereas, each owner of the 1933 DEs all know that their coin's legality is questionable.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Elite Collection

[EliteCollection]

On 5/9/2022 at 9:11 PM, VKurtB said:

It is now 2022 and I’d be totally okay with those coins being seized. 

If they really want them back, the best move would be to pay market value for them. Just have the US mint print a bunch more $100 bills. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:11 AM, VKurtB said:

It is now 2022 and I’d be totally okay with those coins being seized. 

Would you like YOUR private property seized ex post facto ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:14 AM, Elite Collection said:

The difference between the 1933 DE and the 1928 coins or 1913 nickels is that the government has always (or at least soon after the coins got out) considered the 1933 DE illegal and went after every instance of the coin they can find.

Not necessarily, EC.  The 1933 DE was advertised for sale in trade publications and at auctions (I believe) during the late-1930's.  High-ranking Treasury/Mint officials (including a woman whose name escapes me -- maybe Nellie Taylor Rose ?) had to have seen these offers to sell 1933 DEs in publications like The Numismatist.

In addition, the belief was that the 1933 DE wasn't the rarest one out there -- because they were circulating in decent size for those who wanted one (maybe from the Original 25 ?) and that the 1924-S or 1926-S were believed to be rarer.  We have reports of old-time dealers telling their favorite clients to wait on a purchase because ears-to-the-ground indicated a few sales forthcoming which would depress the price in the late-1930's.

The whole "illegality" started with Leland Howard in 1944. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Would you like YOUR private property seized ex post facto ?

It has happened to literally THOUSANDS of people who have owned or attempted to sell stolen, and even bogus goods. It’s hardly rare.  In point of fact, numismatics has enjoyed a “privileged place” regarding seizure. Maybe it’s time it was treated like any other commodity. 
 

Ask any family who has had the family minivan seized because Junior was transporting dope. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:28 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The whole "illegality" started with Leland Howard in 1944.

Fiction. Pure unadulterated fiction. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 9:38 AM, VKurtB said:

It has happened to literally THOUSANDS of people who have owned or attempted to sell stolen, and even bogus goods. It’s hardly rare.  In point of fact, numismatics has enjoyed a “privileged place” regarding seizure. Maybe it’s time it was treated like any other commodity. Ask any family who has had the family minivan seized because Junior was transporting dope. 

The government has allowed the coins to be sold MULTIPLE times.  The statute of limitations has passed.  They cannot now declare the coins illegal after collecting TAXES on the transactions.  Check out the FIRREA S&L cases from the early-1990's when the government attempted to lie and double-deal.  Nailed by the courts. 

We don't have "proof" that all ~35 1933 Eagles (not DEs) were released legally; we only have written exchanges or sales for about 5 of the coins.  Do you intend to confiscate all 35 coins to get at the 30 that are potentially "illegal" ?

[RWB]

On 5/9/2022 at 11:49 PM, Elite Collection said:

So it was likely a coin for coin exchange, either (A) illegally by a mint employee maybe even right before a bag of 1933 coins were melted or (B) over the counter and accidentally exchanged. One can argue whether or not the coins should be legal if (B). The government can still claim it was a mistake and want to correct it. But as @VKurtBsaid, all 1933 coins passed through the hands of Swift, so that makes (B) highly unlikely. Occam's razor suggests that the simplest answer is A, which makes these 1933 DEs illegal.

Anyways, no need to rehash this same argument. I'm not going to convince you guys and you're not going to convince me. Agree to disagree? 

No connection was ever presented between Switt and the Philadelphia Mint, except for issuance and revocation in 1937 of his gold license. The Secret Service reports mention no known connection by Switt with any Mint employee they interviewed.

If you read the related material in my Saint-Gaudens DE book, it might spark some additional ideas.

No one is trying to convince you of anything - only to present facts and information gaps that the trial court refused to permit.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:22 AM, RWB said:

If you read the related material in my Saint-Gaudens DE book, it might spark some additional ideas.

You wrote a book on Saints ?  What's the title ?  Oh wait.....yeah, that's what this 57-pages-and-counting thread is based on.   

On 5/10/2022 at 11:22 AM, RWB said:

No one is trying to convince you of anything - only to present facts and information gaps that the trial court refused to permit.

And stimulate debate.  I'm glad EC is here -- that's why I gave him a LIKE even though his position on the 1933 is different from mine.  

I've even done that with posts from Kurt, who continues to treat some special classic rare coins with his seizure talk the same way Putin talks about Ukraine. 

[RWB]

Finding "the whole truth" about the 1933 DE from production to first public/private sale is impossible now. Too much was ignored and skipped during the 1944 investigation and the people involved are dead. The Mint also withheld the 1932 DE infill information and the persons with knowledge of those normal processes were not interviewed by SS.

So conversations are about what-did and what-if.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:49 PM, RWB said:

So conversations are about what-did and what-if.

That's OK with me.  What have I got to do in my off-time.....worry about Fantasy Baseball ?  Hate that stuff. 

OTOH, I was informed there were some super-rich prices paid for coins over at HA while I was recovering from surgery.  Not sure if they are Saints or other coins.  I'm going to scan there tonight and hopefully post either here or better yet in the SAINTS PRICE thread or I'll create a new thread if they are non-Saints.

Anybody is free to beat me to it. 

[Tazcollector]

At Heritage, one of the top registry sets was being sold off in its entirety (the collector, Warren (or onecoinsouth on the registry) had everything other than a 27D).  Take a look at the 07 (67), 09/8 (66), 09 (66), 20S (65), 25 (67), 30S (65), 31 (66) and 32 (66) among others.  Very strong prices.  I never thought that I’d enjoy watching others bidding at an auction but it was somewhat exciting.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 6:22 PM, Tazcollector said:

At Heritage, one of the top registry sets was being sold off in its entirety (the collector, Warren (or onecoinsouth on the registry) had everything other than a 27D).  Take a look at the 07 (67), 09/8 (66), 09 (66), 20S (65), 25 (67), 30S (65), 31 (66) and 32 (66) among others.  Very strong prices.  I never thought that I’d enjoy watching others bidding at an auction but it was somewhat exciting.

Ok, thanks Taz.....I was having trouble locating it.  This auction was last week ?  I should be able to find it by last name....thanks.

Teed off I missed it.  Like you I would have enjoyed watching the bidding but I was recovering from surgery.  I went to the FUN 2020 Duckor 1927-D 65+ sale and being in attendance was great (my friend told me not to put my hands behind my head or they'd think I want to bid !!! )

[VKurtB]

On 5/10/2022 at 6:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Ok, thanks Taz.....I was having trouble locating it.  This auction was last week ?  I should be able to find it by last name....thanks.

Teed off I missed it.  Like you I would have enjoyed watching the bidding but I was recovering from surgery.  I went to the FUN 2020 Duckor 1927-D 65+ sale and being in attendance was great (my friend told me not to put my hands behind my head or they'd think I want to bid !!! )

Yeah, I was in the room for the 2002 sale of the 1933DE. “Be vewwy quiet, they’re hunting wabbits.”

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:14 PM, VKurtB said:

Yeah, I was in the room for the 2002 sale of the 1933DE. “Be vewwy quiet, they’re hunting wabbits.”

I was kind of surprised it turned out to be Stuart Weitzman as the bidder.  I assumed it was some wealthy hedge fund or financial type who was not normally a coin collector.  I thought maybe Paul Tudor Jones, Steve Cohen, David Tepper...etc.  Then I thought maybe a business type like David Koch.

All wrong.

Oh well, at least Steve Cohen bought my Mets. 

[VKurtB]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:30 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I was kind of surprised it turned out to be Stuart Weitzman as the bidder.  I assumed it was some wealthy hedge fund or financial type who was not normally a coin collector.  I thought maybe Paul Tudor Jones, Steve Cohen, David Tepper...etc.  Then I thought maybe a business type like David Koch.

All wrong.

Oh well, at least Steve Cohen bought my Mets. 

So when is this year’s Mets collapse coming? It seems to be inevitable judging from recent seasons. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 9:39 PM, VKurtB said:

So when is this year’s Mets collapse coming? It seems to be inevitable judging from recent seasons. 

Ok, the 1933 stuff I let slide...but them's FIGHTING WORDS, Kurt !! 

No Mets collapse this year.   We're already without Jake, that is what killed us last year (we collapsed to the DAY he went out for the year in 2021).  And with the expanded playoffs and Steve Cohen's expanded payroll, I think we're OK.  If Jake comes back -- likely (relief pitcher ?) -- that's a MAJOR addition at the ASG or thereabouts that no other team can match via a trade.

Concerned about the down offensive stats for the team, but it seems to be MLB-wide.

Edited May 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Deleted Dupe

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EliteCollection]

On 5/10/2022 at 7:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

that's a MAJOR addition at the ASG or thereabouts that no other team can match via a trade.

ASG only stands for one thing in this thread and it's not the all star game.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/10/2022 at 11:38 PM, Elite Collection said:

ASG only stands for one thing in this thread and it's not the all star game.

Good one !!!   You know, I never thought about that.  Sometimes it's "ASB" for All-Star Break.

Edited May 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 5/10/2022 at 9:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Ok, the 1933 stuff I let slide...but them's FIGHTING WORDS, Kurt !! 

No Mets collapse this year.   We're already without Jake, that is what killed us last year (we collapsed to the DAY he went out for the year in 2021).  And with the expanded playoffs and Steve Cohen's expanded payroll, I think we're OK.  If Jake comes back -- likely (relief pitcher ?) -- that's a MAJOR addition at the ASG or thereabouts that no other team can match via a trade.

Concerned about the down offensive stats for the team, but it seems to be MLB-wide.

Two things usually hit at some point: injuries, and the most abysmal home plate umpiring in baseball history. It’s as if the umpires WANT technology to replace them calling balls and strikes. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/9/2022 at 6:06 PM, Elite Collection said:

Hey guys. Extremely interested thread! I'm the owner of the 1933 DE, the Eliasberg 1927-D, and the Green/Bell/Simpson UHR.

FYI....a 2012 COINWEEK article by an author/collector who has seen all or virtually all of the known UHRs said that the GBS UHR (also traced to Heine) was the 3rd finest UHR behind the Bloomfield UHR and one known as "The Wall Street UHR" owned by a bond trader (unfortunately, not my friend The Bonddadddy ).

I thought I had a more recent ranking in an article but that might be for the 1927-D's.  I'll scan my archives.

[RWB]

On 2/6/2022 at 6:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just to be clear.....so these are ACCOUNTED for 1927-D's that were destroyed in the 1930's....or could still be out there ?

It's much more difficult to determine if a coin, once accounted for, still exists.

[Tazcollector]

The Bass collection that will be put up for auction has a UHR so we may see one trade in the near term (they announced they were selling relatively recently so I don’t know whether it will be up this year or if they’ve picked an auction company yet—will also be interesting if it’s graded and sent to CAC (I would do that given the even higher value it would bring)).

[EliteCollection]

I would assume they would grade every coin and send them to CAC before the auction.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/13/2022 at 2:43 PM, Tazcollector said:

The Bass collection that will be put up for auction has a UHR so we may see one trade in the near term (they announced they were selling relatively recently so I don’t know whether it will be up this year or if they’ve picked an auction company yet—will also be interesting if it’s graded and sent to CAC (I would do that given the even higher value it would bring)).

I have to check Roger's book, but I believe -- as with the 1927-D's -- that some of those are AU quality and not really pristine examples.  I could be wrong, though, maybe the UHRs as a whole all got treated with TLC as opposed to a few 1927-D's.