Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[GoldFinger1969]

I think it took 3 minutes to strike an HR but much much longer for a UHR.  Still, probably could strike a few dozen or hundred in a few days without tying up the special press for that long.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:59 AM, RWB said:

No one got complimentary coins. Mint accounts had to balance and the director spent time during several months collecting from officials to whom Roosevelt had sent coins. Mint contingency accounts did not allow complimentary coins -- all hand to be paid for. Augusta got on EHR only because the President ordered one of the two in the Mint Cabinet to be sold to her. The pieces in Barber's personal collection were acquired the same way -- he paid for them.

You would think that the wife of the creator of the coin, who just died, would get one for free and that the government would have "paid" for the coin.

JMHO.

[RWB]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You would think that the wife of the creator of the coin, who just died, would get one for free and that the government would have "paid" for the coin.

JMHO.

Mint and Treasury accounts did not work that way. Plus everything was routinely audited -- literally down to the cent. However, in the 19th century off-metal coppers of many silver and gold pattern pieces were given to favored collectors, and used for Congressional examination for free. There was no accountable cost for the work time and the metal cost was just scrap. (See my book Fads, Fakes and Foibles for how the Mint charged members of Congress for Goloid patterns, etc.)

If you read Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 you'll see that Augusta's lawyer played an important role in getting the coin for her and in ensuring the Estate was paid for both designs.

Edited February 2, 2023 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

I was told by a Forum Member here that Roger's book is no longer available for general sale by Heritage. 

I'm checking it out from their website.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

In MTM-2 I included a section that defines and explains US Mint usage of several common terms. I'm considering a USB with each book....we'll see.

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, do you remember this from the trial ?  I don't know how/why they left out the 43 1933's that were taken to balance out the 1932's.

[RWB]

The 43 were left out because their "expert" didn't know how the coining dept operated and simply dismissed the signed statement by the Coiner, Bartholomew. It was another of his "orphan" documents. Anyway, it was the defense's demonstrative so they used whatever they wanted to sell their case. This and especially the Switt chart implying that he stole the coins, (no evidence at all!) was more than enough to convince the jury. (I was not permitted to explain how the Coining Dept actually operated in 1933.)

Edited February 7, 2023 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:07 PM, RWB said:

The 43 were left out because their "expert" didn't know how the coining dept operated and simply dismissed the signed statement by the Coiner, Bartholomew. It was another of his "orphan" documents. Anyway, it was the defense's demonstrative so they used whatever they wanted to sell their case. This and especially the Switt chart implying that he stole the coins, (no evidence at all!) was more than enough to convince the jury. (I was not permitted to explain how the Coining Dept actually operated in 1933.)

Why do I get the feeling that the government officials prosecuting that case also are in charge of U.S. Balloon Defense ??  

[GoldFinger1969]

Stupid Question Department.....do we still have Assay Commissions for coins ? 

[olympicsos]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:19 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Stupid Question Department.....do we still have Assay Commissions for coins ? 

Not since 1980

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:38 AM, olympicsos said:

Not since 1980

Interesting...so we still had it for decades after gold coin production ceased in the 1930's.

I wonder why no more since 1980....maybe quality control is so good that we don't need it ? 

Edited February 7, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Pres. Ford thought it was a waste of money -- especially when there were no gold or silver coins to assay.

Now the precious metal planchets are bought from outside sources (well...some have inside offices, others use tents, or a combination of sleeping bags and umbrellas - but I digress). Contractors certify meeting specifications, and the assay lab at West Point makes random checks to verify.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:09 PM, RWB said:

Pres. Ford thought it was a waste of money -- especially when there were no gold or silver coins to assay. Now the precious metal planchets are bought from outside sources (well...some have inside offices, others use tents, or a combination of sleeping bags and umbrellas - but I digress). Contractors certify meeting specifications, and the assay lab at West Point makes random checks to verify.

The tolerances of today's equipment and the digitalization and use of lasers and stuff like that to etch designs and precision striking.....the increase in the MS-68/69/70 coins is proof alone the quality of the striking today  is light-years improved vs. 100 years ago.

Edited February 7, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 2/7/2023 at 12:18 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The tolerances of today's equipment and the digitalization and use of lasers and stuff like that to etch designs and precision striking.....the increase in the MS-68/69/70 coins is proof alone the quality of the striking today  is light-years improved vs. 100 years ago.

Is all that REALLY what someone motivated by artistic issues would call “improvement”? Sure, technoweenies would, but… Digital artwork, not plasters; lasered master hubs, no more reduction machines; and don’t forget single squeeze hub and die pressings. All the wonder has been squeezed out as well. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by VKurtB

[RWB]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:44 PM, VKurtB said:

Is all that REALLY what someone motivated by artistic issues would call “improvement”? Sure, technoweenies would, but… Digital artwork, not plasters; lasered master hubs, no more reduction machines; and don’t forget single squeeze hub and die pressings. All the wonder has been squeezed out as well. 

Kurt is Right!

The US MInt has some of the best, highest quality design and minting equipment in the world. Their production coins, especially those sold to collectors, are consistently of lower quality artistically, AND mechanically than even the old Franklin Mint. I have one of the silver FM bicentennial 50 state medal sets. Almost all of the designs simply blow away anything the US Mint produced then, or on in the state quarter series. Artistically and mechanically there is no viable comparison that favors our national mint. I recently acquired a silver medal by Heidi Wastweet. It is not only beautiful and creative, but the manufacture cut it crisp and clean -- without losing any of its medallic character.

One persistent problem is the strong resistance of the manufacturing end to using its die cutting tools to create relief in the clarity and sharpness of 1900 work. Other world mints can do this, but I know from personal experience that the 1990s "Spaghetti Head" crew has passed it's sloppiness down to the next generation of blur and fuzz experts. All of the recent mint directors have failed to require improvement, being either too timid, too engrossed in profit centers, or too "crow-like" in distraction of shiny baubles.

Edited February 9, 2023 by RWB

[VKurtB]

The best of the Franklin Mint staff still exists. They are the Keystone Mint, and they still do the Red Rose Coin Club’s annual medals. It’s a boutique sized shop today. 
 

Also, agree about the 1992-1998 Spaghetti Hair era. Absolutely garbage work. It’s a PARTIAL joke, but, “How can you tell Carr’s work?” It’s nicer than the Mint’s. Not his original stuff though. That stuff leaves me cold. He calls it art deco. I don’t know about that, but I know it lacks artistry. 
 

But compare his 1964 Morgan with the Mint’s 2021 Morgan. Carr’s work is clearly superior.

Edited February 9, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:44 PM, VKurtB said:

Is all that REALLY what someone motivated by artistic issues would call “improvement”? Sure, technoweenies would, but… Digital artwork, not plasters; lasered master hubs, no more reduction machines; and don’t forget single squeeze hub and die pressings. All the wonder has been squeezed out as well. 

I don't disagree Kurt -- and you forgot the Janvier lathe (I have to goto YouTube and see how it "shrinks" a larger model -- but like they say, you can't hold back progress. 

[GoldFinger1969]

"Held primarily in the National Archives, the cache of documents relating to 1933 Double Eagles may be one of the largest single archival holdings devoted to a single US coin’s production and subsequent history."

How does someone access these NA documents ?  Can you do it online ?  Are they in the Newman Portal ?

[RWB]

The materials relating to 1933 DE are somewhat scattered between NARA Philadelphia and College Park, and also within the Entry group boxes and folders. I don't think much of it is on-line at NNP and none is digitized at NARA. I have images of much of the material but not all - and do not plan to distribute it until the complete files are ready. There's nothing especially exciting that isn't already known. The main "take away" is that Philadelphia Mint Officers knew much more than was presented in the 1947 trial, and made no effort to release everything to Counsel. The Coiner in 1945, Bartholomew, was Coiner in 1933 and knew exactly what was done in manufacturing the coins.

The real "black hole" is who removed the coins from the Mint and when. Mr. Switt had no access.

Edited February 15, 2023 by RWB

[olympicsos]

On 2/9/2023 at 5:30 AM, RWB said:

Kurt is Right!

The US MInt has some of the best, highest quality design and minting equipment in the world. Their production coins, especially those sold to collectors, are consistently of lower quality artistically, AND mechanically than even the old Franklin Mint. I have one of the silver FM bicentennial 50 state medal sets. Almost all of the designs simply blow away anything the US Mint produced then, or on in the state quarter series. Artistically and mechanically there is no viable comparison that favors our national mint. I recently acquired a silver medal by Heidi Wastweet. It is not only beautiful and creative, but the manufacture cut it crisp and clean -- without losing any of its medallic character.

One persistent problem is the strong resistance of the manufacturing end to using its die cutting tools to create relief in the clarity and sharpness of 1900 work. Other world mints can do this, but I know from personal experience that the 1990s "Spaghetti Head" crew has passed it's sloppiness down to the next generation of blur and fuzz experts. All of the recent mint directors have failed to require improvement, being either too timid, too engrossed in profit centers, or too "crow-like" in distraction of shiny baubles.

The interesting part is that bullion and numismatic items aren’t even the most profitable part of the US Mint’s business. Speaking of profit centers. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/15/2023 at 12:36 PM, RWB said:

There's nothing especially exciting that isn't already known. The main "take away" is that Philadelphia Mint Officers knew much more than was presented in the 1947 trial, and made no effort to release everything to Counsel. The Coiner in 1945, Bartholomew, was Coiner in 1933 and knew exactly what was done in manufacturing the coins.

Care to speculate about what "more" they knew about in 1947 ?

And would Bartholomew be aware of or instructed others to insert the 43 1933's into the 1932 count ?

On 2/15/2023 at 12:36 PM, RWB said:

The real "black hole" is who removed the coins from the Mint and when. Mr. Switt had no access.

Yup, that's why I think they kept using the words "stolen" because it's so much worse than "exchanged."  I also note that there was no specific law that made it a crime to exchange common coins for valuable ones so long as the gold content was the same.

The personal and political animus of the FDR crowd against "gold bugs" like Israel Switt and all these coin collectors (I doubt many FDR supporters among them) can't be overstated.

And yes...I continue to be amazed at the volume of investigations and questioning of everybody inolved in handling a 1933 DE....but hardly ANYTHING about an entire bag (250 coins) of STOLEN (and missing !!) 1928 Saints.

Edited February 15, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 2/15/2023 at 4:04 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Care to speculate about what "more" they knew about in 1947 ?

And would Bartholomew be aware of or instructed others to insert the 43 1933's into the 1932 count ?

1. Nope.

2. Using normal procedures, he would have put the 43 pieces with the 1932 coins, probably in the Cashier's vault. That would bring the number of 1932 cons produced up to the reported quantity at the end of the year 1932. That is, for all purposes, the 43 coins were dated "1932" in the record books.

On 2/15/2023 at 4:04 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

but hardly ANYTHING about an entire bag (250 coins) of STOLEN (and missing !!) 1928 Saints

This matter was investigated, nothing resolved and Congress appropriated money to cover the loss. That was the end.

Hoover and FDR policies both came down hard on hoarders - not ordinary people. It was Hoover who started tracking gold withdrawals and deposits and taking names of those making withdrawals -- FDR's people did not do that, although they made limited use of the Hoover "hit lists."

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/15/2023 at 5:42 PM, RWB said:

Hoover and FDR policies both came down hard on hoarders - not ordinary people. It was Hoover who started tracking gold withdrawals and deposits and taking names of those making withdrawals -- FDR's people did not do that, although they made limited use of the Hoover "hit lists."

What's interesting is that it appears that the Spencer Marsh Hoard of 1932's was traced back to him and he was forced to surrender all or most of those coins.  He purchased 50 coins; nothing about George Dieterle of Cincy's 9 coins being traced by the Secret Service, though.

[GoldFinger1969]

Reading about the 1952 steel mill seizures, it's very surprising that SCOTUS was so emphatic in allowing the confiscation of gold (without compensation !!) following an EO by FDR in the 1930's.

It appears that by 1952 if SCOTUS or the Courts were going to be so defferential, they'd want a Congressional action passed, not just an EO on the whim of 1 person (the president).  I believe the Youngstown Steel case (6-3 decision) pretty much said that.  You wonder how that same SC would have ruled 15 years earlier about the confiscation of individually-owned gold with no compensation. 

Considering that the Constitution explicitly says that private property can NOT be confiscated for public use (did you even have "public use" by taking someone's gold ?) except when fair compensation is given, it's kind of surprising that the EO wasn't struck down or compensation wasn't ordered.

Edited February 16, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Wow....my friend showed me some old CDN newsletter he had from the early-1990's.......he had pricing for a 1923 Saint.

In MS-65 condition, the coin was $1,500 in the early-1980's.....then it spiked to $15,000 in 1989-90 !!    Checking the price grid in the Saints book, Roger & HA agree with the general price move.

With 28,500 coins in MS63-64 but a big dropoff at MS65-66 to just 425 coins, you can see why today this coin trades at a rich numismatic premium to the price of gold, one that it didn't command in the early-1980's. It's also relatively more pricey compared to other coins that it was close to in price 40 years ago.

This is a classic example of condition rarity combining with an increased collector/registry base that pushes the price higher relative to decades earlier, one clearly not seen in the adjacent 1923-D prices then and now.

Edited February 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger...in the "Moving Money" chapter (p. 434-435), you cited the example of a cashier in the SanFran mint who didn't reduce the denomination subtotals for a payout of $30 in gold coin.

How often did each mint make these kind of mistakes ?  We talking a few yearly, monthly, or what ?

Edited February 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger, regarding the algorithim you employed to come up with population estimates for all the coins....is there a time when you would think it could be outdated or barring the presence of any surge of hoards distorting population totals it should still be good for years to come ?

[RWB]

On 2/16/2023 at 12:27 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

it's very surprising that SCOTUS was so emphatic in allowing the confiscation of gold (without compensation !!) following an EO by FDR in the 1930's.

This is a false statement. No gold was confiscated. All who surrendered gold coin or gold notes (the overwhelming majority of $$$) were paid the full legal tender value. They had no loss or gain.

Speculation about "could have" or "was worth" is analogous to unrealized profit or loss on anything one owns. I.e., I bought Google stock at $80 in the IPO, until it is sold it is still "worth" $80/share but carries an unrealized gain or loss.

[RWB]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:47 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger, regarding the algorithim you employed to come up with population estimates for all the coins....is there a time when you would think it could be outdated or barring the presence of any surge of hoards distorting population totals it should still be good for years to come ?

Any model is subject to revision and/or updating as better data become available. So far as I am currently aware, no new verifiable data has come forth that would alter the estimates. Anecdotes about "newly imported" coins are exactly that: anecdotes and unsubstantiated comments. Further different models give different results since they will use different initial quantities, assumptions and calculations. Much like the various weather prediction models, the test is how accurately does a model predict an outcome when compared to reality. For DE, that is impossible to determine except for patterns and things like 1927-D and the possibly the 1930s dates.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:59 AM, RWB said:

This is a false statement. No gold was confiscated.

I was pretty sure that some of the sources I read said no compensation was given (like Switt's $2,000 loss).  I'll double-check and circle back.

If you VOLUNTARILY surrendered your gold, you got paid...but if they seized it ?  You're saying they'd still pay you ?

Was doing reading on the legal cases over the last week or so, maybe I got it mixed up.  I'll circle back to this in a few days if not sooner.

Edited February 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969