help classifying this wheat penny 0

[GELJR88]

so i am new to the coin collecting game, kinda.  ive been putting coins aside for awhile now, and recently decided to start tryin to find their values.  i have this coin, 1951wheat penny, flat on rev. but still has normal wheat penny rev. visable.  its not the wrong image or anything its a norml wheat rev. just completely flat and image is light.  the obv. is oddly struck.  its on a normal penny planchat or w.e the normal size for penny, its copper, it has the typical obv image for wheat penny, but the center of coin is the size of a dime, this portion is raised above the rim. the L in liberty is not there due to the rim being recessed and the raised portions edge sits right where the L should be.  i  hope that makes sense...  it also looks like there is lamination effects around the entire inside edge of the coin, or there is extra material, not sure if thats correct but i dont know how else to describe it.  there is also  lamination effect underneath liberty on the edge of either the extra fill or lamination effect, if that

[DWLange]

That was flattened somehow after leaving the mint. It's not an error coin or variety.

[Greenstang]

By the way it is flattened, It looks like it may have been used as a shim under a table leg.

In any event, it didn't look like that when the coin was struck..

[GELJR88]

i appreciate the response.  im just trying to understand how it can happen without leaving any kind of pressure or impact marks.  it would have had to have significant pressure to do this, and to not leave a mark where it was impacted seems odd.  ive seen pictures similar to this i believe they call it a mule or something.  http://www.error-ref.com/progressive-indirect-design-transfer/ or http://www.error-ref.com/soft-die-errors/.  theres some other examples but im just having a hard time believing this was the work of somehting with force.  it would leave some type of impact mark.  hit any metal hard enough to change its appearance and u get visiable impact scare.  there isnt one on this coin.  and rom these example you can see similar characteristics showing that it could have came from the mint like this.

 

[l.cutler]

I think it may have been pressed into one of those "lucky penny" encasements.

[Greenstang]

Unless you were there it is impossible to say exactly what happened. The only way an error can occur is during the striking of the coin and there is no way that damage could have happened then. There are many ways a coin can be damaged but there are a limited number of ways an error can occur. 

FYI a mule is when the wrong pairing of one of the two dies used in the striking of the coin that creates a coin that has one side that was intended to be used for another coin.

[GELJR88]

again i appreciate the responses.  the only reason why i said mule was cuz the raised portion of the obv fits the size of a dime perfectly.  the links i provided show very similar characteristics and they were done at the mint.  so i guess my next step or question is to ask what do i do if i want to get a coin verified?  would the pcgs ppl or w.e determine if this coin is a fake or not?  and if i have multiple coins i want graded and verified or w.e is there a one time fee or is it per coin?

[l.cutler]

The links you posted are nothing like your coin.  They show dies that are basically beginning to fail, showing a transfer from the other die, or failure from the die not being hard enough.  Your coin has been damaged, my thought is by something like this.  http://www.everythinglincoln.com/collectibles/penny-encased-cent.html

Edited January 2, 2020 by l.cutler

[Greenstang]

Quote

would the pcgs ppl or w.e determine if this coin is a fake or not?

NGC has already determined the coin is not an error. DWLang who was the first to post an answer is the Research Director for NGC.

Please don't be one of the newbie collectors who is given an answer they don't like and a disputes what they have been told by members with years of experience. Accept the answer and move on to the next coin.

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, Greenstang said:

NGC has already determined the coin is not an error. DWLang who was the first to post an answer is the Research Director for NGC.

Please don't be one of the newbie collectors who is given an answer they don't like and a disputes what they have been told by members with years of experience. Accept the answer and move on to the next coin.

+1,000,000

[kbbpll]

My first impression was some kind of "dryer coin" type damage around the rim.

[VKurtB]

I see it as a removed "encased cent" or "good luck penny" that has been removed from its aluminum ring, and here's why. Look at that edge. It is depressed on one side only, the obverse. Encased cents of that vintage were inserted with a "one sided press" into the collar, leaving the other side, the reverse, slightly protruding from the ring. This also accounts for the reduced wear on the obverse as compared with the reverse. It has spent most of its time since 1951 in that collar and being handled, and has RELATIVELY recently been removed from the collar. It would have been worth more, and FAAAAAR more interesting if it still was in that ring.

[GELJR88]

greenstang, ill always be someone who questions what someone says, especially when there wasnt an explanation for y they think what they think.  maybe u believe everything ppl say but i dont.  vkurtb is the only one who gave an explanation as to why he thinks what he does and i respect that.  as for ur idea of it being a shim... not sure who would accept that as an answer.  oi might be a newb in coin collecting but ive done enough research, seen enough coins, work in the trades nd have common sense to know it takes a lil more pressure to do this to a coin.  but thanks for ur opinion.

as for the links i posted.  they actually do share similarieties. the progressive indirect design transfer image of the 1948 penny looks flattened on the rev from tht picture, has similar discoloration as my coin.  that discoloration is the same distortion seen on the obv. if u can understand what they are referring to.    the second image of the liberty dime literally has a raised image and a lower rim with the arrow pointing to distortion similar to the obv of my coin. the final image shows a flat rev. with distortion from the obv.  which is similar to my coin.     the soft die error info says in the description for the last image, relating to the obv of my image, that the ridge rings tht some what resemble the distortion on the obv of my coin frequently occur in copper -plted zinc cents.  what is a 1951 wheat penny?  

furthermore, most suggestions that have been posted involve some sort of impact.  there is no impact scaring/damage/indication of any kind on this coin.  i would like to see how someone can cause this significant deformation of a coin and not leave some typ of impact scarring.  if ur saying it was flattened after cna u explain y the L in liberty is missing? theres no idication it was ever there.  it seems more likely that the die didnt punch the coin correctly because the planchet is up.  also, are there not coins that come from the mint that are flattened on one side or both?  

http://www.error-ref.com/mules-wrong-hammer-die/

http://www.error-ref.com/mules-wrong-anvil-die/

http://www.error-ref.com/mules-collar-mules-collar-from-different-denomi/  this basically fits the bill.  just cuz it hasnt been reported doesnt mean it hasnt happened.  

im trying to have a discussion about a coin and im providing examples that actually do resemble what im seeing on the coins.  every one of thesse links has similar characteristics to my coin.  as ive said before i appreciate the input, but to tell me to accept an answer like it was done after the mint where no explanation is provided, to tell me to move along and dont be a newb who cant accept an answer because he doesnt like what hes hearing im gonna tell u to go f  ur disrespectful self.  if u cant articulate, as such a seasoned coin collector or administrator, or provide a quality explanation for ur answer then i wont take u as a credible source.  just cuz u havent seen it doesnt mean someone else hasnt, newb or not.  take that bs too good for the new guy turned up nosed attitude and kindly go f urself.  i cant stand ppl who act like that.  if ur such a seasoned vet in the coin game explain ur idiotic table shim response.  again, that type of damage would leave a mark.  theres no filing type markings to indicate anything close to that occured and if ur saying pressure from a table can flatten one side and force the other to raise i would like u to think about what ur saying.  everyone else has been fine, ur the lone individual_without_enough_empathy. 

for the ngc researcher, im not saying ur wrong, but for now, i do disagree with ur assessment only because i dont see any indication showing this coin was flattened, struck filed or had any other forcable action done to it after it left the mint.  there are numerous examples of how this could have occured prior to leaving the mint so if u care to have a discussion i would like to hear/see examples of what ur referring too.  if u care to possibly educate a newb on the subject i would greatly appreciate a legit explanation and possibly see pics of similar examples.  as i do respect ur opinion i have always questioned things ppl say and it has proved valuable in my life so far.  im not saying im right, but i havent seen anything to suggest im wrong as of yet.  whether u decide to continue the conversation or not i appreciate ur input.  

 

[GELJR88]

and now that im thinking about this and a lil pissed off at the disrespectful comment of greenstang id like to know how this can even happen to a coin, or any piece of metal and have these characteristics.  

thinking logically and without ego or sense of im better than u state of mind, for a coin to be perfectly flattened after it left the mint, what owuld be the process?  you would protect it somehow to tryand save the pressed image and lettering as best as [possible, hit it with something extremely hard or forceably over and over.  you would also have to have equal pressure on the other side or be able to hold the coin without damaging the edge of the coin hard enough to keep it in place while ur hitting the one side of the coin.  because if u have force applied to the obv while hitting the rev you will flatten both sides.  also if u flatten a coin with force, the images, regardless of protecting them will show signs of distortion, some sign of being struck with such force that it flattened the coin. my coinn has very intact and distinct wheat ears, vey clear lettering, yes there are some issues with a few letters missing or faint, but that seems more likely to be an issue with the die hitting a messed up planchet than being hit so hard it removed 2 or 3 letters magically.  again theres no sign it was filed either.   you also would have the affect you see on the obv of my coin that resembles extra material. on the inside of the rim.  on either side of lincolns face u see those wavy lines, that doesnt come from flattening one side of a coin.  

it seems u are suggesting a person cut out a piece of metal or someting to tht effect, the exact dimension of a dime, and was able to strike it so perfectly either once really hard or repeatedly in a manner than it did not affect the rev of the coin in any way.

or that they used the same, i guess it be an inverse cutout of a dime, on the obv of the coin, struck it so perfectly either once or mutliple times that it created a uniform rim, caused no damaged to the rev or obv images, removed the letter L in liberty so perfectly there is no trace it was ever there.  no mark to indicate that someone removed it from the coin.  

ya im finding really hard to believe someone is this good at altering coins and youve never seen this come up before.  

[GELJR88]

any coin that displays significant damage shows some kind of trauma to it. stuck in a coin dispenser, stuck in a dryer,. stuck in anything that rotates around it creating a grinding affect shows some type of sign it was being messed with.  this coin doesnt.  if someone can provide a valid example similar to this ill accept it and admit im wrong, but to blindly accept an opinion from someone on the internet regardless of their title is not something ill ever do.  if a valid explanation/examples similar can be provided to prove ur opinion, id actually really appreciate that and gladly say whelp, i guess im a fing newb my apologies, thank you kindly sir, take care.  but ur asking me to believe someone ahs the ability to alter a coin in such a way there is no visible sign showing anything like that occured.  this would have to be done by a machine, and the person would hve to have either mint quality components, or able to fabricate components to use in his machine to alter the coin in a way that it fits penny and dime sized denominatins perfectly.  if thts the case i dont know how u havent come across an example tht can fit this coin perfectly.  the recessed rim is completely uniform, the imagaes are crisp, theres no sign of alteration.  i rly want to hear green w.e's response before someoen credible posts so we get a genuine response from him.  hopefully its a theory of how being used as a  table shim did this...

[Kirt]

OP, I know it's hard to accept when we think we have something neat but....you got a response from DWLange, and although it was brief it was clear and kind. There's no "how" because it's pretty obvious to an expert that it's not mint damage. Some other posters have come up with theories for the "how" it came to be that way. You do ask some questions so to help you understand where they're coming from.

4 hours ago, GELJR88 said:

furthermore, most suggestions that have been posted involve some sort of impact.  there is no impact scaring/damage/indication of any kind on this coin.  i would like to see how someone can cause this significant deformation of a coin and not leave some typ of impact scarring.  if ur saying it was flattened after cna u explain y the L in liberty is missing? theres no idication it was ever there.  it seems more likely that the die didnt punch the coin correctly because the planchet is up.  also, are there not coins that come from the mint that are flattened on one side or both? 

You say impact. VKurtB's suggestion is not impact, it's pressure. With pressure, you would get no scarring or damage of any kind, just some potential distortion at the edges where the metal flowed. Additionally, even with impact you do not have damage beyond the impact area if it is done with a single sharp direct strike. For examples, look at counterstamped coins. Think of the ring around the obverse of your coin as a large counterstamp, and compare. 

That also potentially explains why there's no L in LIBERTY. Counterstamps completely obliterate the design beneath them, so regardless if it was pressure as with VKurtB's suggestion or a single sharp impact, there could be no trace of the L left. There's another explanation for this as well. Many Lincoln cents have weak strikes at the edges of the design, caused by either die erosion or strikes through grease. It's very common to find a cent with a very weak or non-existent L with little to no wear anywhere else. Maybe this was the case before whatever happened to your coin happened.

You mention coins that are flattened on one side or both coming from the mint - this can happen due to die erosion (common), grease strike or weak strike, or a mis-aligned planchet. It's very easy to find images of these coins and they do not appear as yours does. Additionally, the reverse of your coin, which I think is what you are referring to as being flattened, is simply caused by post-mint wear. The coin has passed through so many hands, pockets, etc in 68 years that the metal has been polished smooth by millions of random micro-abrasions. Look for images of wheat cent reverses in PO-G condition; you'll see they look just like your coin.

[VKurtB]

@GELJR88, I think you need to rethink this:

" ill always be someone who questions what someone says"

Because if you do not, you'll VERY quickly find yourself a pariah on here. You are speaking with TRUE coin experts, who have been in this field  for many decades, and nothing hacks them off more than freely giving their time and expertise, only to have it challenged by someone who knows little to nothing.

[Just Bob]

See if this looks vaguely like your coin:

The first is an intact encased cent. The second is a cent that has been removed from a similar encasement.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Just Bob

[VKurtB]

Thank you, Bob. PERFECT! Also Numismatic News gave out such items at the ANA show in 2002 with 1952 cents in them, to celebrate the 50th anniversary. In the 1950's and 1960's (Yes, I'm old enough to have read NN in the 60's) there were ads for the presses to make these bad boys.

Edited January 3, 2020 by VKurtB

[Crawtomatic]

14 hours ago, GELJR88 said:

individual_without_enough_empathy

Curious.  This same word formatting was used by the individual on the other post that basically replied to himself 10+ times attacking Kurt.  Is it the same person with multiple accounts or a new style for communication I'm not aware of yet?

[Just Bob]

It is the software's substitution for a word or phrase that is deemed to be offensive. I will let you determine which one(s).

insufficiently_thoughtful_person is the substitution for "i d i o t" or "m o r o n"

The new software also completely removes swear words, which is why some posts seem to have incomplete sentences. The old software used the word "spoon" in place of some offensive words, and some users still type "spoon" in place of words that would  be left out by the new software.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Just Bob

[GELJR88]

vkurt- non of my rant was directed towards u it was strictly directed towards the comment of green whatever.  so i apologies if there was confusion, but i appreciated your input and i dont think i mentioned it but i did look into what u brought up.  i appreciate u further commenting on my thread as i rly do appreciate it.  im not trying to make enemies, but when someone (green w.e) decides its ok to be a rude "pos"  on a coin thread im gonna have something to say. especially when theyre suggestion is physically not possible.  just because someone is new to something and ppl are experts doesnt mean the expert is always correct.  i have personal experience with this, lawyers who think they know everything only for me to teach him about the law and get my case was thrown out (yes he was a very well known highly regarded expensive lawyer, ex da, not a crckpot) it happens in electrical trade  all the time as well.  so with all do respect, if i am not told why or how, your word based off a picture posted online, whether youre an expert or not doesnt hold water if u cant explain it.  i believe experts or old timers, seasoned vets, w.e u want to be called, should want to educate all newcomers to their craft or field and teach them the ins and outs of the subject at hand.  if u cant teach wht u know whats the point?  i would think you guys would want to have educated newcomers so that the coin collecting community is better off.  only way newcomers learn is by researching, experience, and what the old timers teach.  

kirt- i appreciate you taking the time to explain what u did.  that helps tremendously. thank you

just bob- thanks for that image and yes it does resemble my coin and explains a lot..  it also helps explain/prove vkurts comments.  much appreciated

crawtomatic- nope not a bot not multiple accounts, and i never attacked vkurt.  i stated many times my comments were mainly directed to green w.e his name is.  he made a comment that i felt was disrespectful and out of line and i popped off in response to it.  especially because his suggestion was moronic and irrelevant.  i read the post ur referring to, and i wont get into that since its not my business, but i am in no way associated to that account and if ur gonna go around assuming mess i will have words for you too.  you clearly didnt read the comments cuz if u hd u would have seen i specifically said who my more aggressive comments were towards and i repeatedly thanked vkurt for his input. i posted multiple times because i looked into the coin further and found more examples i thought fit my coin, aand the more i thought about what the green w.e guy said the more it irritated me.  he wanted to disrespect me and act like he was some big shot talking down to newbs and yet his suggestion for my coin was rly rly special ( cnt use the word i want or itll change when i post and i wouldnt want u accusing me of being a bot again so use ur imagination as to what i mean by rly rly special...)  i dont correct my posts, i dont use proper grammer, etc because im not a grammer nazi or feel its necessary on a forum post. do u just troll the forums and try to accuse ppl of being a bot or this one guy who u dont care for just because someone has a strong opinion to a disrespectful response someone makes towards them?  seems like u have a lot of time on ur hands if thats the case.  respect is earned not given.  i cn already see this isnt going to be the last time i get into it with someone on the forum because its clear ppl think certain ppl are entitled or deserve respect and should be allowed to be rude or make disrespectful comments to someone becuse theyre not as experience in coin collecting as them... i cant stand ppl who think theyre better than others, entitled to something, think its ok to belittle another for asking questions.  ill make it a point to troll these ppl every time i see it.  so we prolly will cross paths again and i look forward to it.

Edited January 4, 2020 by GELJR88

[GELJR88]

vkurt-  its not questioning their expertise.  i dont see anything wrong with the fact i want to know why or how an expert got to the conclusion that they did.  its not at all wrong to have an opinion and stand by ur opinion if nobody is able to or willing to explain to me how they got to their conclusion.  part of being a seasoned vet or expert is teaching what u know to the less experienced.  if i ask my grandpa how he knows what he knows about antiques and he says because i know, im gonna tell him thats a wildly_fanciful_statement explanation and would expect him to teach me something.  it doesnt take that much longer to teach someone, or explain why they think what they do than it would to give any type of response to begin with.  if theyre that confident in their knowledge they should easily be able to explain it so that the person who asks the question understands why and how their coin isnt what they think it is which leaves the expert not feeling upset for having his expertise questioned, and the new guy more knowledgable than he was which will hopefully prevent another post like this from popping up because he can know apply what was taught to future situations.  he can also potentially answer anothers question because he was taught properly by an expert.   it doesnt take much to be a decent person and help others out when u can.  

Edited January 4, 2020 by GELJR88

[Crawtomatic]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:57 PM, GELJR88 said:

i cant stand ppl who think theyre better than others

  I do think I'm better than you.  But mostly because it appears you've never taken the time to learn to manage your emotions.

p.s. that's just me trolling you. Don't take it seriously.

[VKurtB]

@GELJR88, can I be brutally honest with you for a second? I am sick and tired (not just you, believe me, not even MOSTLY you) of people getting all upset and charging people with being "rude" all the time on here, and believe me, the charge is often levelled at me. I don't know fully if it's a cultural thing, a regional thing, an age demographic thing, or what it is. For some, getting an opinion from someone that they didn't want to get is being "rude". Well I wasn't brought up that way. I don't care about "rude". Give me the straight info and don't sugarcoat it, is my preference, both giving it AND receiving it.

It's not just here either. I see people contort their brains, even in my doctor's office, to sugarcoat every damned thing. GIVE IT TO ME STRAIGHT, no chasers, no mollycoddling, no PC garbage, … FULL BORE.

That's way I want it, and I always have, and that's the way I deliver it, and always will.

If this generation doesn't like bad news delivered that way, they can bite me.

Listen to any "Andrew Dice Clay" standup comedy bit about Philly area people. That's the way I was brought up.

I think as you go through your "initiation" in numismatics, you'll find a whole lot of people you'll consider "rude". They are not. They are blunt and terse. It's almost a personality disorder endemic to coins.

Edited January 7, 2020 by VKurtB

[GELJR88]

hypcrites, douchebags arrogent ppl i cant stand.  it has nothig to do wiht the aanswers u guys gave.  just the guy who talked mess then siaid he thinks it wasused s a shim.. its like ppl who try to tell others the rules of impeachment but they say mess like theres no stadards of evidence required in the house or senate cuz its not a triaal but it literally says in the precedents, the rule book so to speak, that there is.  clear and convincing and beyond doubt.  these are law graduates, professors,  harvard ppl who are wrong.  so to think someoe should accept answers without explanation isntsomething ima be doing, u can... yes the political reference is bait because i am curious to see who takes it and y.  hopefyully crawtomatic takes it...  

 

honestly im good with the answer its not a special coin, i was shown why it most likelt isnt and im  to the next 1.  just dont talk mess then provide the dumbest suggestion someone could come up with, and were good.

Edited January 19, 2020 by GELJR88

[GELJR88]

and thats not anywhere close to brutal kurt.  i agree with u.  u hate sensitve ppl i hate douchebags,  u think my reaction to a person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed s being sestive to ur answers, but ts rly just me hatng a person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed and piece of mess.  not u, the green dude or w.e.  neever once hada issue with anyoe other than that guy.  i saisd that multiple times aswell/.

Edited January 19, 2020 by GELJR88

[GELJR88]

last thing kurt- i didnt think me specifically talking mess to some clown and callng him out for his dumb suggestion and lack of being able to tell me why i was wrong like u and others were able to do would be taken as im sensitive or not accepting answers.  i believe i said thank you and at some point ackowledged one of the suggestions was prolly what it is.  calling someone out for being an arrogant egotistical person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed bag that has no business walking with his chest out isnt being sensitive.  

and like you hate ppl who cant take the truth, i do as well, i hate equally, prolly more so, experts in any field, who cant or wont take another min to explain their opinion and how they got to that conclusion so that the person who asked the question is able to learn how to not make the sme mistake again.  its the same ppl who say dont be a noob, in my experience, who cant or wont teach becuase theyre either not educated enough to do so or are just salty pos. who would rather be an individual_without_enough_empathy than help someone learn the right way.  all i can do is research as much as i can, learn from mistakes i make amd listen to more expweienced ppl when they take time to teach.  im sure thats how u learned or maybe u had a teacher, either way what the guy said was something that i cant stand although i ended up beibg wrong, it wwsnt him that provided any constructive input to the conversation and his expertise is proven to be worthless.  as i said you and a few others i pointed out the fact i respected ur input, opinion and if i didnt say it i meant to, that what u mentioned makes sense i can understand why its prolly that and why it fits etter than anything i was considering.  it takes what, 2 min maybe to teach the how and why?  whtout it all ur giving is an unsupported opinion and claiming expertise means nothing if u cnt prove it.  i checked and i absolutely acknowledged the input from the 3 ppl who had something intelligent to say, KURT BOB KPPLL I CUTLER i believe were the ones, i said thank you and fter being explained how u came to ur conclussion acknowledge i ws wrong and again said ty.  oly negative remarks were meat for the one guy.  so once again, to make sure its clear, i appreciate ur advice, thank you kindly for takng the time to respond and help me understand ur opinion, i can now make a more educated decision if i cme acrss something similr in the future.  

and cuz its the biggest news of the day, GO NINERS!!! 

as for crawtomatic- you go around the forums trying to link accounts together and claim their some bot or prgram without anything other than someone talking mess to frm ur not_in_tune_with_social_norms crazy theory.  thank god u didnt gtry to become a detective because a lot of innocet ppl would be in jail and guilty ppl free.  ill applaud u for that as i smile at u and tell u ur absolutely better than me, at wht i dont know, but u sure do help generate easy money for me!!!  u took the time to reply to my post and i cant thankj you enough for the free publicity.  i welcome ur form of "trllng" as it will only generate more views for my posts and ultimately more ppl adding to the conversation.  thank you for proving a topic i wrote a blog about ad can now do a follw up to provng my point.  thanks big guy . 

[VKurtB]

And I'll admit that I also have a short fuse involving people who write Internet shorthand style. But I'll work on getting over it.

 

But then again, I'm a classic "we know everything Boomer", so maybe not.

Edited January 24, 2020 by VKurtB