ATS announces new anti-counterfeiting technology: anyone have input? 0

[Jade Collection]

Hey all,saw this on several forums.

To paraphrase what was written ats:

" We have partnered with HID Global to create NFC chip-embedded slabs that allow collectors to simply tap their smartphone to a coin and instantly receive the Cert Verification."

https://www.pcgs.com/news/security-chip-slabs

Does anyone know much about NFC chips and if they can be counterfeited? NGC and PCGS use barcodes but they have been counterfeited by the Chinese, can these chips be faked as well?

Does NGC have something in mind for anti-counterfeiting that they will do?

Edited December 27, 2019 by Mk123

[kbbpll]

Each chip has a globally unique identifier, so that part cannot be counterfeited. The chip is useless without a connection to a verification database, so that's where I envision that it could be exploited. The chip tells your phone to go do something, so have it go look up your fake chip in your fake database in a fake screen that looks like the real one. I don't really know if that's preventable, and it would take an enormous effort for a counterfeiter. Being cynical, the other issues I see are: There's something else that needs to be properly tied to the slab, for a company that has its share of "mechanical errors" (your chip is real, but is associated with some other coin by mistake). "Tapping" the slab to verify is useless if you're not buying it in person. 42.5 million coins are in slabs that don't have it. And lastly, is it a solution waiting for a problem? Most of the fake slabs I've looked at online don't have the correct cert # in the barcode anyway.

[Jade Collection]

@kbbpll thanks for your response and I learned some stuff about the NFC chip. I still like the idea of a slab verification picture by NGC because even if you swap the real coin out and put a fake coin in a real slab, I can look it up and tell the differences between the coin vs the coin picture that NGC took

[Revenant]

I think others have said this before too but IIRC they come in two flavors: active and passive. The active ones can be read at longer ranges and can send more data but they have batteries, which can die.

I don't think will even be all that hard to fake this. They'll just find a way to have the fake send you to the right place. Failing that, even if they have to fake the site, if you're selling 1000+ of them it's still well worth it. Failing that, they could just bank on people being ignorant or lazy or they could just continue putting fakes in older gen fake slabs so people don't expect it to work.

Like kbbpll said, there's tons out there now with no NFC. More NGC coins out there than PCGS and NGC hasn't announced this... Yet. It will be years probably before these things start making up a significant portion of anything other than new issue graded modern coins.

[Alex in PA.]

I understand you get this service, at no extra cost, when you get the Gold Shield slab.  I don't think I'll be sending in all my PCGS coins to be re-slabbed.  Costly.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Alex in PA.

[Jade Collection]

Do any of you think its necessary for NGC to do something like this?

For example, there was some fake gold in NGC slabs that, if you looked them up on the cert lookup, NGC had already flagged gold coins with that cert as fake, so a quick look would tell you to avoid these.

Also with NGCs cert lookup, I can look up a coin a seller is selling and match it up with the NGC cert pics. If the coin in the cert pic has a scratch on the nose and the sellers pic shows nothing on the nose, bam, different coin, must avoid.

[Revenant]

18 minutes ago, Mk123 said:

Do any of you think its necessary for NGC to do something like this?

For example, there was some fake gold in NGC slabs that, if you looked them up on the cert lookup, NGC had already flagged gold coins with that cert as fake, so a quick look would tell you to avoid these.

Also with NGCs cert lookup, I can look up a coin a seller is selling and match it up with the NGC cert pics. If the coin in the cert pic has a scratch on the nose and the sellers pic shows nothing on the nose, bam, different coin, must avoid.

Personally I think it's a waste and a misapplication of the technology.

At some point, even if they somehow manage to make a slab the fakers can't fake, they'll just keep faking the old ones. 100 million slabbed coins won't be reslabbed.

[numisport]

Without question this will drive up submission costs across the board right down to a simple reholder. I've enriched my knowledge enough to know that the coin I'm buying is authentic and I recognize that the series I collect would be very difficult to reproduce in any reasonable manner due to delicate proof surfaces and original color.

[Zebo]

My series is sometimes difficult to detect counterfeits. While there are some very good counterfeits, there are many more poor ones that really stick out. As far as chips go - you have to be confident in the source of the chips. There are many counterfeits or non-conforming chips on the market. If you can't trust the chip - how can you be able to trust the end product? 

[Coinbuf]

Its a simple marketing gimmick, something that's not really all that useful and doesn't add any value but the fan boys ats are eating it up.  All this chip does is direct your phone to the PCGS coinfacts site where the cert will be shown.  So in a nutshell this is a way to drive more traffic to the coinfacts site and gives PCGS the ability to up its marketing game and continue to claim that they are the best most innovative tpg.  This the useless fluff that the fan boys ats just love.  It can only be used if your buying at a show or at a coin shop as your phone needs to be within an inch or less in order to activate and read the chip.  Which means that its basically useless as many more transactions happen via the web than in person these days.

 

While I'm sure that a few of the more foolish PCGS only type of collectors will run right out and have all their coins reholdered with these new chips, I doubt that this will result in a significant increase in submissions as most people are not going to spend thousands of dollars having currently slabbed coins sent in for new holders with these chips.

[Crawtomatic]

This is the second NFC related announcement I've seen this week.  Personally I don't see much value but all consumers are different so I expect there's some demand out there for it.  Coinworld's release includes a lot of information regarding it's predicted usage.  Notably, it drives traffic to their website and additional business through subscriptions.  I imagine PCGS' business analysts have included the same type of expectation in their paperwork.

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/introducing-smarttrack-dna-giving-coins-a-voice

http://images.amosmedia.com/coin-world/standing-art/smarttrackdna_article.pdf

[robec1347]

I'm pretty sure if NGC were to make a similar announcement here the reaction would be much the same as ATS.

[Revenant]

35 minutes ago, robec1347 said:

I'm pretty sure if NGC were to make a similar announcement here the reaction would be much the same as ATS.

 It's not a new idea. I remember the idea of RFID tags being built into slabs coming up years ago here - I think in 2013 or 2016. The idea was pretty heavily panned back then.

[Jade Collection]

@Coinbuf You mentioned that an individual needed to be  "within an inch or less in order to activate and read the chip", well since most coins are sold are auctions this wouldn't be much help until you received the coin. NGCs cert lookup still seems to be better then because it doesn't matter if the coin is half a world away, I can still compare the coin. True views are not helpful, as scammers can just post a true view shot and then ship you a coin that is far different, I need a slab shot to compare the coin to.

[Revenant]

@Mk123 which supports his conclusions that it is a gimmick with no real value.

Really, this will only help in coin shops and coin shows. Over-the-counter transactions.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Revenant

[MarkFeld]

I’m surprised by and disappointed in all the negativity and pettiness here. As robec1347 said “I'm pretty sure if NGC were to make a similar announcement here the reaction would be much the same as ATS.”

True, the technology won’t help with coins that are on line, out of reach, etc. But it will help with lots of other coins.  And yes, it will cost extra if someone wants to have their coins slabbed or re-slabbed, to include it. If you don’t want to spend the money for it, don’t. And just because counterfeiters might or probably will try to combat it, doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing.

Just because someone likes the idea, doesn’t mean they’re a PCGS Koolaid drinker.
 

 

[Revenant]

28 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

 

Just because someone likes the idea, doesn’t mean they’re a PCGS Koolaid drinker.
 

Does it make the rest of us petty just because we don't see this helping things much?

[MarkFeld]

9 minutes ago, Revenant said:

Does it make the rest of us petty just because we don't see this helping things much?

Not at all. I was speaking mostly to comments here about those who do like it, references to “gimmick”, “fanboy”, etc.

[numisport]

22 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Its a simple marketing gimmick, something that's not really all that useful and doesn't add any value but the fan boys ats are eating it up.  All this chip does is direct your phone to the PCGS coinfacts site where the cert will be shown.  So in a nutshell this is a way to drive more traffic to the coinfacts site and gives PCGS the ability to up its marketing game and continue to claim that they are the best most innovative tpg.  This the useless fluff that the fan boys ats just love.  It can only be used if your buying at a show or at a coin shop as your phone needs to be within an inch or less in order to activate and read the chip.  Which means that its basically useless as many more transactions happen via the web than in person these days.

 

While I'm sure that a few of the more foolish PCGS only type of collectors will run right out and have all their coins reholdered with these new chips, I doubt that this will result in a significant increase in submissions as most people are not going to spend thousands of dollars having currently slabbed coins sent in for new holders with these chips.

Not to mention the fact that coins submitted for reholder will (like NGC) be reviewed before they can be reholdered. This means that your coppers may not be eligible for reholder if they think it may not be red for 10 more years. And unfortunately maybe only half of proof coppers before 1950 still have enough red to be guaranteed or reholdered. Of course your old holdered scratched slab coppers will be flagged as questionable when you want to sell them. If you question this wisdom just try to find a gem proof 1936 Lincoln Cent in a fresh holder.

[Revenant]

I think where this is likely to really come into play is with high value coins (>$10,000), which seem to tend to go in auctions and more major dealers. I think at that point you'll have the auction houses and the dealers - who will know about these features in newer holders - checking these things and you might see auction houses start saying that they've checked this as a verification step.

In that context - high dollar coins that are more attractive to fake and fake slabs for - this could have potential. If they roll this out for every coin I will just think it's a massive waste. You don't need this for common modern coins that don't get faked often and which only get graded for us Registry bums.

Edited to add: Also in the context of high value coins, I could see someone paying $30 to send in and reholder a $10,000+ coin for this security feature to make their lives easier on resale. You will see that happen, you won't see people reholdering things like me and my 10G set - it will never be worth it.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Revenant

[Jade Collection]

None of my pcgs world coins will need this but it will be interesting  to see as more info comes out, as its implemented, etc.

[numisport]

On 12/27/2019 at 1:34 AM, Mk123 said:

@kbbpll thanks for your response and I learned some stuff about the NFC chip. I still like the idea of a slab verification picture by NGC because even if you swap the real coin out and put a fake coin in a real slab, I can look it up and tell the differences between the coin vs the coin picture that NGC took

NGC cert. lookup only available for coins encapsulated in newer generation holders. I can't remember when imaging started but after around late '90s or so maybe ?

[Coinbuf]

7 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I’m surprised by and disappointed in all the negativity and pettiness here. As robec1347 said “I'm pretty sure if NGC were to make a similar announcement here the reaction would be much the same as ATS.”

True, the technology won’t help with coins that are on line, out of reach, etc. But it will help with lots of other coins.  And yes, it will cost extra if someone wants to have their coins slabbed or re-slabbed, to include it. If you don’t want to spend the money for it, don’t. And just because counterfeiters might or probably will try to combat it, doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing.

Just because someone likes the idea, doesn’t mean they’re a PCGS Koolaid drinker.
 

 

Are you also disappointed and admonishing those who are gushing uncontrollably over the idea, or is your ire only directed to those who have an opinion that differs from those expressed over there.  Why do you feel that the dissenting opinions expressed here are somehow less valuable than the positive ones expressed there. Are those who are not in love with the idea not allowed to have an opinion?  Of course if NGC were to make a similar announcement there would be some that would see it as a good idea, just as there are some over there that genuinely see it as a good idea.  But there are also some on that thread that are nothing but butt kissers who would write glowing statements if PCGS announced that they were going to start slabbing dog poo tomorrow.  Its also possible that not everyone over there is in love with or sees the benefit in this but cant say anything due to the iron fisted way that board is controlled; something you are very well aware of; so maybe the ability to have and express an opinion of my own here is valued.  I never said or insinuated that every respondent to the thread there is a koolaid drinker, but there certainly are some and I have no respect for butt kissers.

If someone wants to spend their money to have their coins reholdered because of the chip that is certainly their right and decision and I'm not passing judgement on anyone that chooses that route.  But lets examine just what this chip does, it saves a person the immense (insert sarcasm here) time and effort of punching in a cert number on the verification page, that is the extent of what the chip does.  Really, are coin collectors and dealers really that fat and lazy that they are no longer able to put themselves thru all that agony (insert sarcasm again) seriously!!  Marketing is all a gimmick, its a spin or action that companies use/do to convince customers that what they do or produce is better.  Sometimes those gimmicks are useful, like the little key tag that your grocery story wants you to use so in order to incentivize the use of the tag they give you points that you can use in the future to reduce some cost.  But what does the store get from the deal, lots and lots of info about your buying habits and preferences which they use and sell, yep that small discount they give you they make up for in the end.  This little chip doesn't do anything that the user cannot do now it just automates the process.  And in reality it will be years before even 10% of the PCGS slabbed coinage out in the marketplace will have this chip in them, by which time I suspect those who want to will have figured out a way to counterfeit them anyway.  I get your point that sometimes doing something is better than nothing but I'm just looking at this without the rose colored glasses and with some sarcasm included. 

Have you considered the downside of this little chip?  Do you think that this might further depress prices for slabs without the chip much like the unintended consequences that we are seeing from the CAC bean.   And I can see this becoming another way for the pompous elite to put another layer between them and the unwashed masses; I can already foresee the conversations that will be coming soon ats "my collection is better than yours because mine are chipped".  We already have those who put down other collectors because their collections are not PCGS and or CAC only, this will just be another way by some to put down others because their coins are not PCGS and CAC only but now they will also be 100% chipped too.  Yippee!!

[Jade Collection]

@numisport I believe NGC has said they imaged every coin they have graded but only in the last 10 or so years the pictures have been put on the verification page. I had a old soapbox fatty that had a pic and those are pretty old.

[MarkFeld]

58 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Are you also disappointed and admonishing those who are gushing uncontrollably over the idea, or is your ire only directed to those who have an opinion that differs from those expressed over there.  Why do you feel that the dissenting opinions expressed here are somehow less valuable than the positive ones expressed there. Are those who are not in love with the idea not allowed to have an opinion?  Of course if NGC were to make a similar announcement there would be some that would see it as a good idea, just as there are some over there that genuinely see it as a good idea.  But there are also some on that thread that are nothing but butt kissers who would write glowing statements if PCGS announced that they were going to start slabbing dog poo tomorrow.  Its also possible that not everyone over there is in love with or sees the benefit in this but cant say anything due to the iron fisted way that board is controlled; something you are very well aware of; so maybe the ability to have and express an opinion of my own here is valued.  I never said or insinuated that every respondent to the thread there is a koolaid drinker, but there certainly are some and I have no respect for butt kissers.

If someone wants to spend their money to have their coins reholdered because of the chip that is certainly their right and decision and I'm not passing judgement on anyone that chooses that route.  But lets examine just what this chip does, it saves a person the immense (insert sarcasm here) time and effort of punching in a cert number on the verification page, that is the extent of what the chip does.  Really, are coin collectors and dealers really that fat and lazy that they are no longer able to put themselves thru all that agony (insert sarcasm again) seriously!!  Marketing is all a gimmick, its a spin or action that companies use/do to convince customers that what they do or produce is better.  Sometimes those gimmicks are useful, like the little key tag that your grocery story wants you to use so in order to incentivize the use of the tag they give you points that you can use in the future to reduce some cost.  But what does the store get from the deal, lots and lots of info about your buying habits and preferences which they use and sell, yep that small discount they give you they make up for in the end.  This little chip doesn't do anything that the user cannot do now it just automates the process.  And in reality it will be years before even 10% of the PCGS slabbed coinage out in the marketplace will have this chip in them, by which time I suspect those who want to will have figured out a way to counterfeit them anyway.  I get your point that sometimes doing something is better than nothing but I'm just looking at this without the rose colored glasses and with some sarcasm included. 

Have you considered the downside of this little chip?  Do you think that this might further depress prices for slabs without the chip much like the unintended consequences that we are seeing from the CAC bean.   And I can see this becoming another way for the pompous elite to put another layer between them and the unwashed masses; I can already foresee the conversations that will be coming soon ats "my collection is better than yours because mine are chipped".  We already have those who put down other collectors because their collections are not PCGS and or CAC only, this will just be another way by some to put down others because their coins are not PCGS and CAC only but now they will also be 100% chipped too.  Yippee!!

Those, who in your belittling words, “gushed uncontrollably” were not disparaging others who felt differently. So no, I was not disappointed in them and I didn’t admonish them. My comments had nothing to do with do with the fact that some posters here, have different opinions. I don’t believe and didn’t say that dissenting opinions are less valuable or that they shouldn't be allowed. So please stop implying that I did so.

You might have noticed that I didn’t express my opinion about the announcement, itself. Personally, all things considered, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. But I have no issue with anyone who disagrees, and see no reason to label anyone for their opinions about the product. 

PS - I do like your idea of “chipped” PCGS/CAC-only registry sets.

Edited December 28, 2019 by MarkFeld

[Coinbuf]

12 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Those, who in your belittling words, “gushed uncontrollably” were not disparaging others who felt differently. So no, I was not disappointed in them and I didn’t admonish them. My comments had nothing to do with do with the fact that some posters here, have different opinions. I don’t believe and didn’t say that dissenting opinions are less valuable or that they shouldn't be allowed. So please stop implying that I did so.

You might have noticed that I didn’t express my opinion about the announcement, itself. Personally, all things considered, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. But I have no issue with anyone who disagrees, and see no reason to label anyone for their opinions about the product. 

 

I didn't imply anything, I asked you some simple questions biased upon your reply.  But while we're on the subject the term "gushed uncontrollably" is just my over the top way of describing the comments in that thread and was not an attempt to belittle anyone, so please stop accusing me of doing so. 

[Alex in PA.]

Progress I guess.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

I didn't imply anything, I asked you some simple questions biased upon your reply.  But while we're on the subject the term "gushed uncontrollably" is just my over the top way of describing the comments in that thread and was not an attempt to belittle anyone, so please stop accusing me of doing so. 

You wrote “ Why do you feel that the dissenting opinions expressed here are somehow less valuable than the positive ones expressed. Are those who are not in love with the idea notallowed to have an opinion?” Since I didn’t state that I felt that way, or that those who weren’t in love with the idea shouldn’t be allowed to have opinions, you made implications, if you didn’t outright misstate what I wrote.

And I didn’t say that you “attempted“ to belittle anyone, though I did describe your “gushed uncontrollably” words as “belittling”. In their context, I doubt that many people think those words were other than negative. If I should have written “negative” instead of “belittling”, consider it done.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by MarkFeld

[Alex in PA.]

17 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Have you considered the downside of this little chip?  Do you think that this might further depress prices for slabs without the chip much like the unintended consequences that we are seeing from the CAC bean.

I've got to admit this thought crossed my mind.  I've never sent a coin in to CAC therefore I don't know if any of mine have been or not but by judging from the generation of slab I'd think they have and didn't make it.  So, to me, any NGC or PCGS slab without a sticker is suspect.  Now I'll have slabs without the chip and I'll have to worry about their value dropping again.   It is just my opinion but this seems like a good time to sell and get out of the hobby.  I wonder what will be next?

Edited December 29, 2019 by Alex in PA.
correction

[Revenant]

20 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

 It is just my opinion but this seems like a good time to sell and get out of the hobby.  I wonder what will be next?

I guess it depends on how you see your hobby. If your collection is your savings then maybe so. My collection is bought with my small "fun budget," maybe more if I get a nice bonus. My liquid savings exists apart from this and so does my retirement money. So let prices drop. I'll buy more.