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Questions about registry scoring
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18 posts in this topic

Can someone please explain the algorithm that produces the points coins in a registry set?  I know that each coin has two scores, one for the coin, and one for the type.  I know that these scores are very diverse, and they can change at a whim.  So what is the algorithm and what is it based on?  Does this information already exist somewhere?

PCGS provides a table with how coins are scored for each registry set - I was hoping to see something similar for the NGC registry. 

Thank you!

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You can click links / hot text on all the sets and scores to see tables with all the point values for all eligible coins for a set / slot.

As far as the algorithm that populates the tables: lol Good luck. They'll never share that. It wouldn't help you much even if they did. No single scoring system will ever make everyone happy and be universally fair, consistent and logical. Sets/collections and market values and rarity of coins is too complicated and diverse to ever capture with 1 number.

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Thank you for the interest, gentlemen.

Here is a brief description of how our scoring algorithm, designed by our senior numismatic team, works:

We place a score value on each coin that is based on the relative rarity of its type, date and grade. This value takes many factors into account such as grade, population, market value, eye appeal and expert opinion. When a set is ranked in the registry, its rank is judged based on the total of the individual scores of all the coins. 

As a basic guide to our system, collectors can look to the market as an excellent method of comparing the relative rarity of one coin to another. There is simply no better indicator of how much a coin is desired.
There is, however, no one perfect source that accounts for all the elements needed to be considered when ranking sets in the Registry. Comparative values of coins in the market can appear distorted (especially at the top end). On the other hand, the grades alone are a poor indicator of how much "finer" a coin is because the grade does not reflect the rarity of a coin. Through extensive market research, we are able to provide a ranking system that recognizes the intelligence of the market but offers a more true reflection of relative rarity than does market value, because it appropriately adjusts for market distortions.

For US coins, we have two kinds of scores. US coins in TYPE sets have different scores than they do in DATE setsThe Date Score is for date sets such as Lincoln Cents 1909-1958 and reflects the value and rarity of the specific coin. The Type Score is used only in type sets, where the goal is typically to acquire any example of a single type. Therefore, all coins of the same type will receive the same score, which often results in a lower score for rarer or more valuable dates.

 

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6 hours ago, Revenant said:

You can click links / hot text on all the sets and scores to see tables with all the point values for all eligible coins for a set / slot.

As far as the algorithm that populates the tables: lol Good luck. They'll never share that. It wouldn't help you much even if they did. No single scoring system will ever make everyone happy and be universally fair, consistent and logical. Sets/collections and market values and rarity of coins is too complicated and diverse to ever capture with 1 number.

Yes, I agree, but it will help to identify obvious mistakes. 

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Thank you for posting the information about the scoring rationale. After the freeze is over on Friday, I will point out what I believe to be a mistake to one coin’s points based on the description of the rationale. 

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FOR AFTER THE FREEZE

I believe that the "type" points assigned to a certain coin are incorrect. Can someone please forward to the senior team to resolve?

 

I have long wondered why the brilliant Wheat Lincoln proof cent was worth so many points. After researching it and getting an explanation of how the scoring is supposed to work, I am 100% convinced that the scores intended for the MATTE PROOF LINCOLN CENT (1909-1916) were also accidentally applied to the BRILLIANT PROOF LINCOLN CENT (1936-1958).

Firstly, the point values for the brilliant proof and matte proof Wheat cents are EXACTLY THE SAME.  I could not find ANY other two type coins with exactly the same point values. Surely, it is not possible that they are the same by coincidence due to the diverse factors NGC considers: “We place a score value on each coin that is based on the relative rarity of its type, date and grade. This value takes many factors into account such as grade, population, market value, eye appeal and expert opinion.”  Matte proof and brilliant proof Wheat-backs are indeed very different; otherwise they should be combined into a single type.

Secondly, brilliant proof Wheat cents point values are far too high compared to other types considering their rarity, availability, and market value. Take for example the grade PF69RD worth 15,260 points!   15,260 points!   That’s worth more than a 1907 High Relief $20 in PF66+STAR! In fact, I made a list of all the proof type coins worth 15,000 points or more. There are NO proof types made since 1950 worth anything close to 15,000 points (except for the over-weighted Wheat cent).  And even though there are theoretically some proof types worth 15,000 points or more, MANY OF THOSE COINS DO NOT EXIST.  For example, a Matte proof cent in PF69RD is worth 15,260 points, however, there are ZERO coins of this type in this grade.  In fact, if you sum all of the 20th century proof coins NGC has graded worth 15,000 points or more (not counting the brilliant Wheat cent), there are only 318.  Of those 318, only 19 of them are non-gold coins: one is the finest matte proof Buffalo; seven are scarce proof Barber coins of the highest-quality; and 11 are very-rare superior Morgan proof dollars. The “cheapest” of those coins is worth $25,000. On the high end, a PF67 high relief $20 is worth $2.85 million!  Typically, the only place to get coins of this caliber is at a major auction with major cash.

Conversely, counting only proof Wheat cents from 1950-1958, there are over 2300 NGC coins graded PF69RD or better worth 15,000 points or more. The price guide lists these coins as worth about $375. Although I can go on eBay right now and choose one of over 10 of these coins for as little as $180 buy-it-now. This situation is hardly comparable to the one above.

According to NGC’s own description of registry scoring, there is no doubt that the brilliant proof Wheat cent is grossly over-weighted.   The brilliant Wheat cent should be scored similarly to the silver dime (1946-1964), silver quarter (1936-1964) and the silver half (1964-1970). Uncorrected, these kind of discrepancies distort set scores, discourage users, and de-legitimize the registry.   Image what one would think of the registry when their proof Indian Eagle, or Type 1 Buffalo, or VDB cent loses to a common Wheat-back…

Will you please correct (lower) the value of brilliant Wheat cent proofs to be consistent with your scoring rationale?

Thank you.

Here is the list I mentioned above.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, BlakeEik said:

Picture1.jpg

Thank you for the inquiry, BlakeEik.

We will add your score request to the queue of requested updates for after today's deadline. Please let us know when we may assist in the future with the NGC Registry.

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I think there needs to be  more consistent correlation between straight graded Coins and Ones that are designated CAMEO

I find a discrepancy's in quite a few of my coins as compare to the coins of set of the 1883 #1 set / Mine being the #2 set 

Please review and inform 

1883 Proof Set #2 is mine / Case and point is the MY CAMEO trade dollar point structure against its straight grade coin

in Set #1 1883 Proof.

Please inspect and inform of your findings.

Thanks

( If this is not in the right forum please transfer to the proper one - thanks )  

 

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On 12/23/2019 at 2:53 AM, jgrinz said:

I think there needs to be  more consistent correlation between straight graded Coins and Ones that are designated CAMEO

I find a discrepancy's in quite a few of my coins as compare to the coins of set of the 1883 #1 set / Mine being the #2 set 

Please review and inform 

1883 Proof Set #2 is mine / Case and point is the MY CAMEO trade dollar point structure against its straight grade coin

in Set #1 1883 Proof.

Please inspect and inform of your findings.

Thanks

( If this is not in the right forum please transfer to the proper one - thanks )  

 

@jgrinzmay I ask what the discrepancy is?  From what I can tell, the cameos look to be a bit higher (100-400 points) more than those in the same grade without the designation.  And Ultra Cams are the same compared to cameos.  That is typical with NGC, while PCGS will often give cameos a boost of an entire +1 point, and deep cameo +2 points!

Unless I'm missing something, I do not see a discrepancy, but if you are saying "what don't you give MORE credit to cameos" then I agree with you 100%! Some coins get a lot more credit for cameo and ultra cameo designations that do others and I would like to know why.  I would hope that this scoring is based on honest statistical analysis of mintage numbers and populations, but NGC would only give a "high-level" description of their scoring methods when I asked.  What *REALLY* irks me is that their "star" designation gets A LOT more credit than does a CAMEO in the same grade.  How is this right when in their own description, one of the factors to get a star designation is if it has some cameo contrast, but not enough to earn the cameo designation.  Whaaaaaat???

Your 1883 proof set is nice, by the way.  I have one too, but it is all PCGS/CAC so I don't think I'll post it at NGC.

Annotation 2019-12-24 081734.png

Edited by BlakeEik
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On 12/23/2019 at 2:53 AM, jgrinz said:

I think there needs to be  more consistent correlation between straight graded Coins and Ones that are designated CAMEO

I find a discrepancy's in quite a few of my coins as compare to the coins of set of the 1883 #1 set / Mine being the #2 set 

Please review and inform 

1883 Proof Set #2 is mine / Case and point is the MY CAMEO trade dollar point structure against its straight grade coin

in Set #1 1883 Proof.

Please inspect and inform of your findings.

Thanks

( If this is not in the right forum please transfer to the proper one - thanks )  

 

Hello, jgrinz.

Thanks for the inquiry. Please follow the directions here: **How do I find scores for a coin?  If you need further assistance, you may also reach us at registry@NGCcoin.com

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To add to the post above. A wrong score for example would be my "1957 Lincoln Wheat Penny Proof 69 RD ... 15,260 pts"  in the "Small Cent Type Set". The other cents in PF69 are also similarly scored for different year cents. The score is maybe ten times what is should be for this particular coin. Maybe a few of these cent coins in other years are more rare and deserve such a high score.

NGC Price Guide Value $375.00, Total Graded by NGC in PF69 RD in MS69 is 685, and in higher grades 10. 
 

 

Edited by CoinNut4396
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21 hours ago, CoinNut4396 said:

 

Here is the same coin but in a different set shown in the section listing eligible coins.

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Thanks for your interest, coinnut.

Coins in TYPE sets have different scores than they do in DATE sets. US coins receive different scores depending on the set: a "Date Score" and a "Type Score". The Date Score is for date sets such as "Lincoln Cents 1936-1958, Proof" and reflects the value and rarity of the coin. The Type Score is used only in type sets, where the goal is typically to acquire any example of a single type. Therefore, all coins of the same type will receive the same score, which often results in a lower score for rarer or more valuable dates.

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On 12/1/2019 at 9:40 AM, BlakeEik said:

Can someone please explain the algorithm that produces the points coins in a registry set?  I know that each coin has two scores, one for the coin, and one for the type.  I know that these scores are very diverse, and they can change at a whim.  So what is the algorithm and what is it based on?  Does this information already exist somewhere?

PCGS provides a table with how coins are scored for each registry set - I was hoping to see something similar for the NGC registry. 

Thank you!

Thank you for the excellent question.  The answer provided about clicking links/ hot text etc. was not something that I could understand.  Please guide me to a place where score values for a certain variety of Washington Quarters can be found.  Many thanks!

 

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15 hours ago, Uncle Bill's Type B&C Reverse Washington Quarters said:

Thank you for the excellent question.  The answer provided about clicking links/ hot text etc. was not something that I could understand.  Please guide me to a place where score values for a certain variety of Washington Quarters can be found.  Many thanks!

 

Hello and thanks for the interest.

You will want to go view the set category name in question first, such as Washington Quarters, 1956-1964, Type B and Type C Reverse, Circulation IssueThen click See eligible coins. Then click on the coin variety in question to see the numerical scores. Here are directions: 

 

Please let us know if you need further assistance.

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On 12/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, Ali E. said:

Thank you for the inquiry, BlakeEik.

We will add your score request to the queue of requested updates for after today's deadline. Please let us know when we may assist in the future with the NGC Registry.

Hello NGC admins,

I was just curious - how are things going there?  How much have registry operations been impacted from the coronavirus precautions?  Stay safe, Thanks.

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On 4/25/2020 at 2:07 PM, BlakeEik said:

Hello NGC admins,

I was just curious - how are things going there?  How much have registry operations been impacted from the coronavirus precautions?  Stay safe, Thanks.

Hello, Blake.

Thanks for your concern. Registry staff members are working from home right now in accordance with all guidelines. Some requests, such as large score requests, will take longer than usual. We are logging all requests and processing them in the order they are received. 

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