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Your Steps Ain't Full, Buddy.
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32 posts in this topic

26 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

...the MAC certified sticker for 4 Full Steps really irks me. 

I am not familiar with MAC or their sticker. What is that?

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@Just Bob looks like a company similar to CAC but they do what they call "Grade Enhancement Designations" as well.  Something I came across while searching recent eBay sales lately and was wondering why in the heck a nickel was being labeled as 4 Full Steps and listing for over $2,000.  Per their website they don't stop there, though....things like "90% Full Head", "Full Steps Lincoln Memorial", "90% Full Torch Bands", etc.....lots of close but not good enough types of things.

http://www.macablege.com/

Oh, and careful clicking on things within their page as I tried one and it started to redirect to some ads, not very professional.

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27 minutes ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

@Just Bob looks like a company similar to CAC but they do what they call "Grade Enhancement Designations" as well.  Something I came across while searching recent eBay sales lately and was wondering why in the heck a nickel was being labeled as 4 Full Steps and listing for over $2,000.  Per their website they don't stop there, though....things like "90% Full Head", "Full Steps Lincoln Memorial", "90% Full Torch Bands", etc.....lots of close but not good enough types of things.

http://www.macablege.com/

Oh, and careful clicking on things within their page as I tried one and it started to redirect to some ads, not very professional.

How do they allow this? That’s crazy...

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11 hours ago, Just Bob said:

I am not familiar with MAC or their sticker. What is that?

Another sticker to go next to the CAC I am sure - This is just the start 

I am going to peel off all my footballs and have nothing on them so they are worth more with NO STICKERS  :-) 

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11 hours ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

Just venting, but grrr, the MAC certified sticker for 4 Full Steps really irks me. 

There's 6 steps total. 

4 of them is 67% at best.  

You're just celebrating above average.

Grrrrr, again.

Are these already certified coins??? I guess I am confused as the 2 biggies already have assignments for step designations.

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@jgrinz Yep!  Already certified then they get this ugly sticker on them telling you that it's almost one of the recognized designations but not quite.

Just did a quick eBay search again and apparently there's a "RNBO" sticker for toned silver.  Didn't even qualify for a "Star" but you get this janky sticker.  Woohoo!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1879-S-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Grade-by-NGC-MS67-Beautiful-Toned-MAC-RNBO-Certified/122293597299?hash=item1c79443473:g:s94AAOSwZQRYaFrq&frcectupt=true

Oh jeez....here's a quarter that got 2 stickers....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-D-SILVER-WASHINGTON-QUARTER-NGC-MS-67-MAC-CERTIFIED-FSBK-FULL-SPLIT-BEAK/253906572212?epid=170422994&hash=item3b1e02d3b4:g:j8sAAOSwscda17KT&frcectupt=true

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1 minute ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

@jgrinz Yep!  Already certified then they get this ugly sticker on them telling you that it's almost one of the recognized designations but not quite.

Just did a quick eBay search again and apparently there's a "RNBO" sticker for toned silver.  Didn't even qualify for a "Star" but you get this janky sticker.  Woohoo!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1879-S-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Grade-by-NGC-MS67-Beautiful-Toned-MAC-RNBO-Certified/122293597299?hash=item1c79443473:g:s94AAOSwZQRYaFrq&frcectupt=true

Oh jeez....here's a quarter that got 2 stickers....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1947-D-SILVER-WASHINGTON-QUARTER-NGC-MS-67-MAC-CERTIFIED-FSBK-FULL-SPLIT-BEAK/253906572212?epid=170422994&hash=item3b1e02d3b4:g:j8sAAOSwscda17KT&frcectupt=true

Yep see my previous to previous comment ... Not a big sticker on my slab guy 

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...and, ya know, that quarter is nice all on it's own.  Doesn't look like they added much premium to it with the stickers but there's enough MS67s out there I'd rather have one w/o the MAC stickers on it if it were something I was buying.

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"Full split beak" on the quarter? I'm cynical as it is when it comes to reverse strike designations. Totally nuts, and someone I assume paid good money for this. 

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Just a marketing gimmick by a dealer to sell coins to the less informed buyers out there.  I have seen the MAC stickers at the Long Beach show and on ebay, just a distraction and means absolutely zero. 

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56 minutes ago, bsshog40 said:

Nothing like throwing more money away at moderns. 

Give it 50 years and they won't be modern any more? Though I doubt they'll age as well as the mercury dimes, the walking liberty halfs, or the standing liberty quarters...

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1 hour ago, bsshog40 said:

Nothing like throwing more money away at moderns. 

Bsshog.....just because you don't like something doesn't mean collecting it is throwing your money away.  I could very easily say from my perspective "Nothing like throwing more money away on classic US coins", if I'm to be brutally honest with my feelings regarding that topic.  So I definitely take issue with your comment in that regard.  There are some good moderns and a lot of people really enjoy collecting them.  That said, I do agree that the whole sticker on the slab thing in its entirety is a waste of money....not just MAC, but all of them.  But that's just my thoughts on the issue.  It's ultimately up to each individual collector to decide what makes them happy with collecting coins and that answer is different for everyone. 

Edited by Mohawk
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9 hours ago, Mohawk said:

Bsshog.....just because you don't like something doesn't mean collecting it is throwing your money away.  I could very easily say from my perspective

I think what he's getting at is the concept of the modern condition rarity - a coin that is common as sand on the beach that someone pays hundreds or thousands for because of the number on the label - something I don't think you would have seen before the TPGs. We all see it all the time. "Wow! Rare Pop 1! Highest Known! Buy now! Invest today!" … "Yeah... except... 99+% of these today are ungraded (see foreign coins and notes especially), there could be 10 or 100 more of these out there that just aren't graded." I see this all the time with Zimbabwe notes - someone thinking it's worth $200 because their 66 EPQ note - which is good but not exceptionally high - is "pop 1*" - *when looking only at PMG and not PCGS and forgetting the fact that the note is very common and con be bought in uncirc condition for $2 and maybe 0.01% of them have been graded.

Just saying... we all know its an issue, You can love and collect moderns and still admit that some of this might be a bubble pretending to be an "investment."

 

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5 hours ago, Revenant said:

I think what he's getting at is the concept of the modern condition rarity - a coin that is common as sand on the beach that someone pays hundreds or thousands for because of the number on the label - something I don't think you would have seen before the TPGs. We all see it all the time. "Wow! Rare Pop 1! Highest Known! Buy now! Invest today!" … "Yeah... except... 99+% of these today are ungraded (see foreign coins and notes especially), there could be 10 or 100 more of these out there that just aren't graded." I see this all the time with Zimbabwe notes - someone thinking it's worth $200 because their 66 EPQ note - which is good but not exceptionally high - is "pop 1*" - *when looking only at PMG and not PCGS and forgetting the fact that the note is very common and con be bought in uncirc condition for $2 and maybe 0.01% of them have been graded.

Just saying... we all know its an issue, You can love and collect moderns and still admit that some of this might be a bubble pretending to be an "investment."

 

I see your points here, William and they make a lot of sense.  However, there are classic US coins which are common as dirt as well that I'd argue are heading for the same issues down the road.  Morgan dollars would be the main ones I'm thinking of here.  For example, everyone says that the 1893-S is a rare coin.  However, I'd argue only in the context of present demand is it rare.  The brick and mortar shop I worked at was in a smaller city, and we had at least seven 1893-S's on hand at any given time, sometimes more.  1889-CC's we had about 18 of at any given time.  1909-S VDB's are another one......the shop I worked at had 50 of them.  50!  And we could have bought more almost any day of the week.  1928 Peace Dollars, we had about 25 at any given time.  And this was a small shop in a small city!  Imagine what the big boys have hidden away.  My point is that many classic US coins have this same problem.  It's not just moderns.  There are very, very few US coins from any era which are actually rare.  There's just an insane amount of demand for them at the present time.  My time at the shop really opened my eyes to this.  I also get tired of seeing people bash on moderns.  We all collect different things in this hobby, and if it makes you happy, it's all good.

Edited by Mohawk
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6 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

I see your points here, William and they make a lot of sense.  However, there are classic US coins which are common as dirt as well that I'd argue are heading for the same issues down the road.  Morgan dollars would be the main ones I'm thinking of here.  For example, everyone says that the 1893-S is a rare coin.  However, I'd argue only in the context of present demand is it rare.  The brick and mortar shop I worked at was in a smaller city, and we had at least seven 1893-S's on hand at any given time, sometimes more.  1889-CC's we had about 18 of at any given time.  1909-S VDB's are another one......the shop I worked at had 50 of them.  50!  And we could have bought more almost any day of the week.  1928 Peace Dollars, we had about 25 at any given time.  And this was a small shop in a small city!  Imagine what the big boys have hidden away.  My point is that many classic US coins have this same problem.  There are very, very few US coins from any era which are actually rare.  There's just an insane amount of demand for them at the present time.  My time at the shop really opened my eyes to this.

Very true, and one of the reasons I started my 10G set when I did and not any kind of US set. Prettt much any US classic gold set will have very high premiums over melt for Gem uncirc grades. European gold on the other hand - you can get graded gem uncirc coins for just a 20% premium over melt sometimes. Much lower threshold for entry.

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5 minutes ago, Revenant said:

Very true, and one of the reasons I started my 10G set when I did and not any kind of US set. Prettt much any US classic gold set will have very high premiums over melt for Gem uncirc grades. European gold on the other hand - you can get graded gem uncirc coins for just a 20% premium over melt sometimes. Much lower threshold for entry.

All true and the coins are often much scarcer than collectible US gold coin issues.  With US gold, it tends to be super common or super rare with very few issues in between and it's all overpriced for what it is, in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Mohawk said:

All true and the coins are often much scarcer than collectible US gold coin issues.  With US gold, it tends to be super common or super rare with very few issues in between and it's all overpriced for what it is, in my opinion.

Well, it is a supply&demand curve afterall... lol But yeah. I just have a hard time paying market prices for US gold coins just because I just don't like them enough for the price. On the other hand, I got looking into Italian 20 Lira coins from 100-150 years ago because my wife lived in Italy for 3 years as a child. I'd love to have one of those 20 Lira in my collection. Same for a classic British Sovereign. 

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5 hours ago, Revenant said:

Well, it is a supply&demand curve afterall... lol But yeah. I just have a hard time paying market prices for US gold coins just because I just don't like them enough for the price. On the other hand, I got looking into Italian 20 Lira coins from 100-150 years ago because my wife lived in Italy for 3 years as a child. I'd love to have one of those 20 Lira in my collection. Same for a classic British Sovereign. 

Indeed it is, my friend.  And I hear you about US gold coins.....the only one that really has even minor appeal to me is the $10 Indian and I think all of the denominations of Liberty Head gold are absolutely dreadful......if I had to select the one coin design that I disliked the most of any that I am aware of in the whole world in all eras of history, it would easily be the Gobrecht Liberty Head on the $2.50's, $5's and 10's.  I actually owned one once and I had immediate buyer's remorse.  The Italian 20 Liras and the British Sovereigns, on the other hand, are gorgeous!  It's pretty cool that your wife lived in Italy as a child, too.  I can see the 20 Liras having a great meaning to you because of that.  And, as you know, I like Roman coins quite a bit.  In a way, they're kind of the original Italian coins.  I'm not much of a gold guy, really, but I would like to have a Faustina the Younger aureus someday but those are quite pricey....from what I've seen, they start around $4,500 and only go up from there.  Maybe someday, though.

Edited by Mohawk
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On 5/6/2019 at 10:26 PM, Mohawk said:

Bsshog.....just because you don't like something doesn't mean collecting it is throwing your money away.  I could very easily say from my perspective "Nothing like throwing more money away on classic US coins", if I'm to be brutally honest with my feelings regarding that topic.  So I definitely take issue with your comment in that regard.  There are some good moderns and a lot of people really enjoy collecting them.  That said, I do agree that the whole sticker on the slab thing in its entirety is a waste of money....not just MAC, but all of them.  But that's just my thoughts on the issue.  It's ultimately up to each individual collector to decide what makes them happy with collecting coins and that answer is different for everyone. 

Not really bashing the moderns soo much as I am spending money on a sticker that says your modern is better than the others. As stated, most moderns are still sitting in someone's collection and not being graded at all. Although I haven't seen the FS Jefferson that was in the OP's first post, I would think a special sticker celebrating the quality of a coin that does not live up to it's expectations is where the foolish money comes in putting it on a modern. That was I was actually referring to.  I have some moderns myself and I think the meaning of my post wasn't clearly defined at what I was calling wasteful.   

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11 minutes ago, bsshog40 said:

Not really bashing the moderns soo much as I am spending money on a sticker that says your modern is better than the others. As stated, most moderns are still sitting in someone's collection and not being graded at all. Although I haven't seen the FS Jefferson that was in the OP's first post, I would think a special sticker celebrating the quality of a coin that does not live up to it's expectations is where the foolish money comes in putting it on a modern. That was I was actually referring to.  I have some moderns myself and I think the meaning of my post wasn't clearly defined at what I was calling wasteful.   

Ahhh.......gotcha Bsshog and I agree on the whole sticker thing.  It's ridiculous all across the board in my opinion and I do feel that all of it's a waste of money, though for some reason CAC has taken off.  That I do not understand, but there is a lot in the hobby I guess I don't understand.  It's just weird that we're at a point of grading the graders with the whole CAC thing.......I really do not understand the need for it and I understand the need for what MAC is offering even less.

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40 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Ahhh.......gotcha Bsshog and I agree on the whole sticker thing.  It's ridiculous all across the board in my opinion and I do feel that all of it's a waste of money, though for some reason CAC has taken off.  That I do not understand, but there is a lot in the hobby I guess I don't understand.  It's just weird that we're at a point of grading the graders with the whole CAC thing.......I really do not understand the need for it and I understand the need for what MAC is offering even less.

Yea, not to turn the thread into a sticker bash, I also agree that a TPG's grade should be good enough without have to rely on another's opinion. But that's another topic. Lol 

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1 minute ago, bsshog40 said:

Yea, not to turn the thread into a sticker bash, I also agree that a TPG's grade should be good enough without have to rely on another's opinion. But that's another topic. Lol 

Indeed it is, sir, indeed it is......;)

Edited by Mohawk
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I found this thread while trying to find out what the hell a RNBO sticker was.  Seems that there are 20+ designations by the MAC people.

With regard to the original post - it leaves me wondering.  NGC will certify the coin as 5FS and 6FS.  I my estimation, it leaves the 4 step designation as a gimmick to take advantage of the uninformed.  Isn't that the PRIMARY reason that TPG came about?

I watch people bid the hell out of CAC stickered coins.  It is often irrational.  The Greysheet people now have a special publication to price CAC coins.  As the kids would say WTF.  If TPG is accurate (I submit it usually is) then what you are doing is paying extra for a second opinion.

Curiously, it doesn't end there.  There is a market for labels in coin holders.  Is a perfect coin any more perfect when it has a first day of issue label????

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12 hours ago, Goshin said:

I found this thread while trying to find out what the hell a RNBO sticker was.  Seems that there are 20+ designations by the MAC people.

With regard to the original post - it leaves me wondering.  NGC will certify the coin as 5FS and 6FS.  I my estimation, it leaves the 4 step designation as a gimmick to take advantage of the uninformed.  Isn't that the PRIMARY reason that TPG came about?

I watch people bid the hell out of CAC stickered coins.  It is often irrational.  The Greysheet people now have a special publication to price CAC coins.  As the kids would say WTF.  If TPG is accurate (I submit it usually is) then what you are doing is paying extra for a second opinion.

Curiously, it doesn't end there.  There is a market for labels in coin holders.  Is a perfect coin any more perfect when it has a first day of issue label????

 

Welcome to the forums, nice that you found some of the info you needed here.  Honestly most designations like full steps, full bell lines, full torch, full head, and many others are all gimmicks or marketing hype to make something more valuable.  In most cases none of those items I mentioned; while not mutually exclusive; are not automatically associated with or define a coin as having a full strike.  Many full head standing liberty quarters have weak shields, weak toes yet are highly prized for the FH designation.  In part TPG registries which reward these designations with higher points have also fueled the desire for such things.  It falls to each collector to decide what is important or desirable when it comes to the hype that surrounds this hobby.

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On 5/7/2019 at 5:30 PM, Mohawk said:

Indeed it is, my friend.  And I hear you about US gold coins.....the only one that really has even minor appeal to me is the $10 Indian and I think all of the denominations of Liberty Head gold are absolutely dreadful......if I had to select the one coin design that I disliked the most of any that I am aware of in the whole world in all eras of history, it would easily be the Gobrecht Liberty Head on the $2.50's, $5's and 10's.  I actually owned one once and I had immediate buyer's remorse.  The Italian 20 Liras and the British Sovereigns, on the other hand, are gorgeous!  It's pretty cool that your wife lived in Italy as a child, too.  I can see the 20 Liras having a great meaning to you because of that.  And, as you know, I like Roman coins quite a bit.  In a way, they're kind of the original Italian coins.  I'm not much of a gold guy, really, but I would like to have a Faustina the Younger aureus someday but those are quite pricey....from what I've seen, they start around $4,500 and only go up from there.  Maybe someday, though.

That's my cue... alright, if I win the lottery someday I'll treat myself to an electrum from Lydia, land of my forefathers, and throw you five grand to go get your aureus. Interesting choice!

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