Are Die Cracks of any significance ?
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How true is it that sometimes die cracks add to the value of a coin ? Are they of any significance ? For example, for the type of coin below, I have never (either on-line or in hand) come across multiple cracks (across the crown & right below/along the bust on the obverse). Also, could the region on the reverse around the '8', which looks slightly elevated be a die break ?

 

IND_Rup_Obv.jpg

IND_Rup_Rev.jpg

Edited by joydeep
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It depends on the series and the collectors that collect that series; take bust half's for example; it seems that many collectors of that series seek out coins with die cracks.  Also at times die cracks are used as markers to identify a low mintage rare coin where only one die pair is know to have been used.  As to the coin you posted I don't collect darkside so I cannot comment on the die cracks, however, the raised area  under the "8" looks like a die clash to me.

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4 hours ago, joydeep said:

How true is it that sometimes die cracks add to the value of a coin ? Are they of any significance ? 

It depends on the coin and the potential buyer. Someone like me, who thinks that they add character to the coin, might be willing to pay more for one, especially one with multiple cracks.  Other collectors only like pristine coins, so will shy away from those with die cracks or other "problems." In some cases, a die crack may actually cause a coin to sell for less. For example,  in a case where most of the known examples of a given coin are from a cracked die, a piece without cracks may bring more money than one with.

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They are of significance because they are a die identifier and a diagnostic of the die state which may be of interest to collectors of certain coins.  For the great majority of coins, it will not add value.  Hopefully, you can enjoy its relative uniqueness, compared to the rest of the population, without caring about whether it has any extra value.

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How can a die crack establish authenticity unless it was a crack that is known for a particular variety?  Dies used by counterfeiters crack too.  And a counterfeit die made based on a coin that has a die crack could have the same "crack" as well.  So the crack wouldn't mean anything as far as authenticity.

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On 2/16/2022 at 10:42 PM, Conder101 said:

How can a die crack establish authenticity unless it was a crack that is known for a particular variety?  Dies used by counterfeiters crack too.  And a counterfeit die made based on a coin that has a die crack could have the same "crack" as well.  So the crack wouldn't mean anything as far as authenticity.

...maybe, maybe not...a counterfeit die copied from a known coin with a die crack would be almost impossible to duplicate...die cracks can not be engraved in the die to replicate a known die crack with any degree of accuracy, to duplicate the die crack the counterfeit die would need to be cast, which defeats the purpose of trying to produce a believable counterfeit die, cast counterfeit dies n coins made there from r very easy to identify...true, die cracks by themselves authenticate nothing, but as u say, die cracks known for a specific variety r valuable in authenticating those coins...

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On 2/16/2022 at 10:42 PM, Conder101 said:

How can a die crack establish authenticity unless it was a crack that is known for a particular variety?  

My understanding was that in the case of Saints -- which I was referencing -- that it is very difficult to replicate a die crack.  I've never heard of that before, counterfeiters going to such extremes to mimic a minor defect.  But I'll let RWB chime in since he's the expert on Saint dies.

On 2/16/2022 at 10:42 PM, Conder101 said:

And a counterfeit die made based on a coin that has a die crack could have the same "crack" as well.  So the crack wouldn't mean anything as far as authenticity.

With other "tells" and marks, my understanding is that the die crack (even if replicated, which I've never heard of) would not mislead on authentication.

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On 2/17/2022 at 8:46 AM, zadok said:

...maybe, maybe not...a counterfeit die copied from a known coin with a die crack would be almost impossible to duplicate...die cracks can not be engraved in the die to replicate a known die crack with any degree of accuracy, to duplicate the die crack the counterfeit die would need to be cast, which defeats the purpose of trying to produce a believable counterfeit die, cast counterfeit dies n coins made there from r very easy to identify...true, die cracks by themselves authenticate nothing, but as u say, die cracks known for a specific variety r valuable in authenticating those coins...

This sounds solid.....(thumbsu(thumbsu(thumbsu

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jackyoungcounterfeit7.jpg

You may have to blow up the image but do you see the die cracks trough the top of MERIC and through the much finer one through the bottom of 200 through the top of UNI on this 1806 half cent?  Well this is a struck counterfeit using a rev die that was copied from an 1804 C-6 half cent.  The 1804 C-6 does have those cracks, and this same fake rev die has been used to create counterfeit draped bust half cents for every year from 1800 to 1808.

Die cracks do NOT establish authenticity.  In fact in this case they prove it's a fake.

Edited by Conder101
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Well...

  1. I was told here and on other forums that Die Cracks (again, I believe on Saints and Morgans) did establish authenticity or helped to do it.  Maybe only on those 2 coin types ?
  2. If the die crack runs through "high points" that means it is in the low-recess of a die, right ?  Isn't this tougher to recreate if legitimately on a real die but you are trying to copy it/recreate it on a fake ?
Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 2/22/2022 at 6:22 AM, Conder101 said:

jackyoungcounterfeit7.jpg

You may have to blow up the image but do you see the die cracks trough the top of MERIC and through the much finer one through the bottom of 200 through the top of UNI on this 1806 half cent?  Well this is a struck counterfeit using a rev die that was copied from an 1804 C-6 half cent.  The 1804 C-6 does have those cracks, and this same fake rev die has been used to create counterfeit draped bust half cents for every year from 1800 to 1808.

Die cracks do NOT establish authenticity.  In fact in this case they prove it's a fake.

...however that fake reverse die is not even a credible copy n shouldnt fool anyone really knowledgeable...there r at least a dozen inconsistencies, where the die cracks on the real c-4 reverse would serve to authenticate it.....

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A computer receives the scan of the original coin, then a computer-controlled engraver engraves the image into the die. I don't see how a die crack would be any harder to reproduce than any other raised device. To the computer, it would be no different than a vine, branch, or any other similarly shaped line.

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On 2/22/2022 at 12:37 PM, zadok said:

...however that fake reverse die is not even a credible copy n shouldnt fool anyone really knowledgeable...

I doubt that was the counterfeiters' intent when they created these coins. I feel certain they would have been happy just to fool a few thousand ignorant people.

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There are collectors who chart die cracks and for collections of a given die variety by what they call die states. Some die states can be very valuable if you know which markets to tap.

Some die cracks can a neutral effect or price or lower it. As I type collector, I look for coins that have the sharpest impression for the design. Sometimes you lose sharpness because of die cracks because the die sinks does not give a full impression on the coin when it is struck. 

This 1839-C Quarter Eagle was made with badly cracked dies. My guess is that it probably lowers the value, but I bought the coin because it was graded properly, AU-50, and had not been dipped or cleaned, which can be a problem with these coins. 

 

1839-C $250 O.jpg

1839-C 250 R.jpg

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On 2/22/2022 at 4:57 PM, BillJones said:

There are collectors who chart die cracks and for collections of a given die variety by what they call die states. Some die states can be very valuable if you know which markets to tap.

Some die cracks can a neutral effect or price or lower it. As I type collector, I look for coins that have the sharpest impression for the design. Sometimes you lose sharpness because of die cracks because the die sinks does not give a full impression on the coin when it is struck. 

This 1839-C Quarter Eagle was made with badly cracked dies. My guess is that it probably lowers the value, but I bought the coin because it was graded properly, AU-50, and had not been dipped or cleaned, which can be a problem with these coins. 

 

1839-C $250 O.jpg

1839-C 250 R.jpg

....to the type collector, they would just probably pass on the coin which doesnt really effect its value...to the variety or die state collector they would jump on buying this coin, which also effects the value very little...overall the shattered dies actually effect the value minimally, its more of a question of how fast it sells...to me id actually pay a premium for the coin if given a choice between it and an equal condition coin from non shattered dies...nice purchase...

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On 2/22/2022 at 2:59 PM, Just Bob said:

I doubt that was the counterfeiters' intent when they created these coins. I feel certain they would have been happy just to fool a few thousand ignorant people.

...im sure u r correct...in this instance the die cracks on the original coins serve as authenticating markers as do the die cracks on the counterfeits...

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On 2/23/2022 at 12:23 AM, Conder101 said:

Really?  It got past the TPG's

...as i said shouldnt fool anyone knowledgeable....its not even credible, very poor counterfeit...most likely undiscovered at that time, doubtful it could pass now....

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On 2/16/2022 at 9:07 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For Saints, the die cracks establish authenticity and add to the value. (thumbsu

Gee, obsessed much?

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On 2/23/2022 at 8:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

No, just relating what I've seen and read....I could opine on Franklins or Mercs but I have nothing to add there. :)

Are you denying a Saint G obsession? If you are, I call BS. I cannot right now think of a U.S. series I could ever care less about. Unless it’s the Pan Pac $50’s. I truly dislike gold in general. So much evil committed in its pursuit. If a chemical element could be said to have evil spirits, it’s gold. It is a proximate cause of WW1, and via the Treaty of Versailles, WW2 also. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 2/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, VKurtB said:

Are you denying a Saint G obsession? If you are, I call BS. 

Obsession ? :|  This is a coin forum, Kurt, and I talk about the coin(s) that interest me..... which for the most part are Saints.  I don't have a large collection of coins, but the bulk of the value (if not the numbers) is probably Saints.  

If I weaved Saints into a discussion of the Russian move into Ukraine, the Baseball lockout, why inflation is rising, and the rising crime rate -- then you might have a point. xD  But these forums are about coins and with a few dedicated Saint threads....plus others with topics that somewhat touch upon Saints....I don't think it's obsession so much as my area of focus to talk about them where appropriate.

I could do a review of my posts the last month, 3 months, and year.....probably half are Saint-related ?  Maybe more, maybe less.  I really wasn't counting.

On 2/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, VKurtB said:

I cannot right now think of a U.S. series I could ever care less about. Unless it’s the Pan Pac $50’s. I truly dislike gold in general. So much evil committed in its pursuit. If a chemical element could be said to have evil spirits, it’s gold. It is a proximate cause of WW1, and via the Treaty of Versailles, WW2 also. 

You've made that clear.  I'm not upset or offended by your stance, why are you with my choice ?

And no, trying to weave DISLIKE of gold into the cause of WW I and/or WW II....now, THAT'S an obsession !!! xD

Unless you are saying that Gavrilo Princip got sold an overgraded coin by Archduke Ferdinand ? :) (thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 2/23/2022 at 10:49 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Obsession ? :|  This is a coin forum, Kurt, and I talk about the coin(s) that interest me..... which for the most part are Saints.  I don't have a large collection of coins, but the bulk of the value (if not the numbers) is probably Saints.  

If I weaved Saints into a discussion of the Russian move into Ukraine, the Baseball lockout, why inflation is rising, and the rising crime rate -- then you might have a point. xD  But these forums are about coins and with a few dedicated Saint threads....plus others with topics that somewhat touch upon Saints....I don't think it's obsession so much as my area of focus to talk about them where appropriate.

I could do a review of my posts the last month, 3 months, and year.....probably half are Saint-related ?  Maybe more, maybe less.  I really wasn't counting.

You've made that clear.  I'm not upset or offended by your stance, why are you with my choice ?

And no, trying to weave DISLIKE of gold into the cause of WW I and/or WW II....now, THAT'S an obsession !!! xD

Unless you are saying that Gavrilo Princip got sold an overgraded coin by Archduke Ferdinand ? :) (thumbsu

Are we (employing the Royal we here) unaware that the massive cheating in the Latin Monetary / Currency Union (an international gold standard featuring massive cheating by reducing fineness) led to the degradation of European international peace. Please tell me you’re aware of this. Please? 

Also, the “Stella” was a misguided attempt to play ball in that dirty little ball yard. 
 

Quintus’ beloved Coq Marianne are a remnant of that failed piece of international foolishness. People have never been able to behave themselves in the presence of gold. Likely never will. 
 

Chart when each nation went OFF their gold standard. Their economies INSTANTLY improved fairly immediately. Gold can be fairly said to CAUSE human misery, not by virtue of its chemistry, but rather its effect on BRAIN chemistry. 
 

Heck, even Dan Fogelberg figured that one out. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 2/24/2022 at 12:54 AM, VKurtB said:

Are we (employing the Royal we here) unaware that the massive cheating in the Latin Monetary / Currency Union (an international gold standard featuring massive cheating by reducing fineness) led to the degradation of European international peace. Please tell me you’re aware of this. Please? 

No, something like that can never work longer-term.  It's fraud.  You might as well pass off gold paint-colored bars from City Slickers II as real gold bars.

I suspect that is one reason why American Double Eagles later became the gold standard (literally as well as figuratively xD) and so many were used and trusted by Central and South Americans.

On 2/24/2022 at 12:54 AM, VKurtB said:

Also, the “Stella” was a misguided attempt to play ball in that dirty little ball yard. 

Not familiar with Stellas though I would like to maybe dabble in that area in the future and learn about them.

On 2/24/2022 at 12:54 AM, VKurtB said:

Quintus’ beloved Coq Marianne are a remnant of that failed piece of international foolishness. People have never been able to behave themselves in the presence of gold. Likely never will. 

Does anybody know why Quintus A. disappeared ?  I miss his grammatically ambiguous posts !! :(

On 2/24/2022 at 12:54 AM, VKurtB said:

Chart when each nation went OFF their gold standard. Their economies INSTANTLY improved fairly immediately. Gold can be fairly said to CAUSE human misery, not by virtue of its chemistry, but rather its effect on BRAIN chemistry.  Heck, even Dan Fogelberg figured that one out. 

Not sure what Dan Fogelberg has to do with monetary policy....but the reason nation's economies improved when they went off the gold standard is because a Central Bank needs flexibility to deal with economic downturns and exogenous shocks.

You can solve a problem like that 2 ways:  an internal devaluations or an external devaluation.  The market adjustment mechanism MUST take place the key is which one.  A gold standard -- or a fixed currency regime like the Euro -- forces and internal adjustment via lower wages and prices.....very difficult, painful, and tough to endure.  An external valuation via inflation and a falling currency will cause problems with the price level and/or banking system, but it is easier overall on the economy as measured by nominal GDP.

Beware The Denominator Effect ! (thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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