THIS IS DISTURBING A MUST READ!

[midwest]

Link to thread incase you want to see with your own eyes

 

The following story and quotes I found while doing some research at PCGS.This is absolutely disturbing and wrong.

 

"Friends...Let's start with crossovers. Here's a true story...

 

At the Long Beach show I went thru a major dealer's inventory of NGC and ANACS coins . I picked out about 50 coins I thought had a chance to cross (actually only one was an ANACS coin.) I took them into the grading room and told the graders, "I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do." and nothing more. A day later they had crossed over 30 coins, including one upgrade...a 1917 T1 25C that went from NGC 66FH to PCGS 67FH."

 

"Interestingly, I did the same thing at the FUN show...different dealer...same amount of coins...about the same crossover rate."

 

That is disturbing and sent a chill down my spine.Now if these coins were still the dealers this is bad and he should be punished.However if he bought the coins he needs to be removed NOW!I got a sinking feeling when I read this.I have just lost all respect for PCGS

 

"the other services are purposely grading looser than PCGS. Every dealer with an eye...the ones that will tell you the truth that is...knows that PCGS coins are graded a little more conservatively. Any dealer who tells you the coins are the same is probably lying to you about other things as well."

 

Is being conservative a good thing?Now I have the feeling some may disagree with what he says.But why would any president of any company say anything like this in public This is the kind of stuff you would say behind closed doors.He has a history od saying stupid things in public.Add this one to this list

 

[truthteller]

Frankly, the David Hall's post was very self serving. A bit of PR work. While it is true that PCGS wants great coins in their holders, usually, they want them at one to two points lower than the actual grade. So you can try and try and try to get an upgrade. NGC circumvents this annoyance and grades it right the first time.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

I remember that post and it caused an uproar. Of course a major percentage of the coins crossed. He's the boss. He told his employees to see what they could do. What did he think he was telling them to do? If he wanted an objective crossover opinion, he'd have let the dealer submit them without telling the graders anything. Of course only a TINY fraction of the coins would have crossed.

 

BTW, David Hall isn't exactly respected by the PCGS graders for his grading ability. That's direct from a face-to-face conservation with a high ranking grader at PCGS.

[TomB]

I read that one in real time when it was posted and was shocked to see it written, however, I wasn't surprised that it happened. It is surprising to see that it hasn't been edited out yet, as I assume you are linking the original thread even though I haven't read your link.

[reid1836]

[MastaHanky]

Hence the reason I have been selling off all my PCGS coins and switching exclusively to NGC.

 

The nice ones I'll crossover, but the rest...see ya.

[James_OldeTowne]

I remember this as well!

[midwest]

I can't believe this here I thought I found something and it has allready been done.I thought I would be on the front page of Coin World I thought I would bring down PCGS or at least David Hall in one swoop* *(parts or all of this post may have been exagereated for dramatic purposes)

 

 

Well it is still good to bring back golden oldies.

[GoYankees]

WOW!!!

 

Random thoughts...

 

- I am a former PCGS Kool-Aid drinker. Beacuse PCGS made it tougher for me to submit coins to them, I've abandoned my meager registry sets and will allow my membership to expire.

 

- If PCGS is the cat's meow of TPGs, why the direct (petty) attack on NGC and ANACS?

 

- Speaking of ANACS, I wonder what new PCGS hire, Mike Farone would feel if he saw that thread and how ANACS was slighted by Mr. H. ("At the Long Beach show I went thru a major dealer's inventory of NGC and ANACS coins . I picked out about 50 coins I thought had a chance to cross (actually only one was an ANACS coin.)"

 

- I felt the shaft in my last 2 submissions as I was a victim of the "64" bugaboo. I know they aren't 64s. But I refuse to play their re-submit game.

 

- That ATS (across the street) thread exposed a few of the Kool-Aid drinkers.

 

- Interesting that Hall didn't repond to Greg, EVP, or Russ in that thread.

 

- Actually Hall eventually reponded to Greg - by banning him.

 

- I hope NGC doesn't mimic PCGS by being "tighter". Greg said it best... consistency is better than being tighter on coins.

 

- My Yankees are done. At least they had a great run.

 

- As a collector, I'm finding it is better to sell PCGS coins than it is to collect them.

 

- IMO PCGS is pitiful on Jeffs. Since most Jeff collectors are step-conscious, my theory is PCGS's super-tight grading on the series is a reaction to missing the boat on 5FS and 6FS designations. That said, I would never buy a PCGS FS slab sight unseen.

 

- Despite what I've said, I still like posting on the ATS boards. Since Hall had banned Greg (and others), I'll keep my comments here. If PCGS bans me anyway for posting in this forum, they can pound sand.

[midwest]

oh my goodnes the AH king is now saying PCGS screwed him!Will this thread get deleted?Sounds like some of the PCGS people are mad!

[Tradedollarnut]

Ahhh - to be 13 and all knowing again...

[truthteller]

"Ahhh - to be 13 and all knowing again... "

 

 

Tell that to my 20 year old son.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[midwest]

Obviously the whole David Hall taking coins into the grading room thing does not alarm you.You may feel as you may but my age has nothing to do with this.

[HaydenTubbs]

Obviously the whole David Hall taking coins into the grading room thing does not alarm you.You may feel as you may but my age has nothing to do with this.

It's old news my friend...

[midwest]

I was not aware of this as I was not around any of these forums when this broke.While doing some reasearch I found it and felt I should bring it up.I find what he says intresting and disturbing.

[HaydenTubbs]

But it's still a very controversial topic

[EZ_E]

re: homerunhall

Collector

 

Posts: 1938

Joined: Apr 2001

Tuesday March 04, 2003 8:32 PM

 

 

 

dealers who complain, dealers who don't, dealers who can really grade, dealers who can't...

 

Part 1...Crossovers

 

Friends...Let's start with crossovers. Here's a true story...

 

At the Long Beach show I went thru a major dealer's inventory of NGC and ANACS coins . I picked out about 50 coins I thought had a chance to cross (actually only one was an ANACS coin.) I took them into the grading room and told the graders, "I've picked out some nice NGC coins out of a dealer's inventory. See what you can do." and nothing more. A day later they had crossed over 30 coins, including one upgrade...a 1917 T1 25C that went from NGC 66FH to PCGS 67FH. This showed me that...

 

1. If you pick out the "right" coins, you can get a decent percentage to cross.

2. My eyes hadn't gone yet.

 

Interestingly, I did the same thing at the FUN show...different dealer...same amount of coins...about the same crossover rate.

 

The truth about crossovers is...

 

1. PCGS wants as many great coins in there holders as possible. It's to our advantage to have every coin that meets our standards in our holder. There is no business reason to not cross coins. It only pisses people off and leaves good coins in the other guy's holders. We don't want this. We want the good coins in our holders and the mistakes in their holders.

 

2. The crossover game has been going on for over 10 years. That means every month we take 1000 or so nice coins out of the other guys' holders. I believe we have crossed several hundred thousand coins. Think about it. What's left in their holders. Think about the dealer whose coins I looked thru at Long Beach. We took the 30 nicest coins. What's going to be his crossover percentage on the next batch he sends.

 

3. Many dealers aren't that good at grading. The 60 to 70, 11 point high end of the grading scale is really splitting hairs. Many dealers aren't very good at doing it. Their opinion of their coins is very biased and often incorrect. If they say we aren't crossing enough coins, their opinion is biased and not necessarily correct.

 

4. Dealers cross coins to make money. Many coins are worth more in PCGS holders. Dealers have a vested interest in getting us to be looser on crossovers. We have a vested interest in grading all coins...regular submissions and crossovers...in accordance with the PCGS standards. These two interests are sometimes at cross purposes.

 

5. Other grading services have a business reason to grade looser than PCGS. Think about it. Coins are worth more in PCGS holders. If another grading service graded exactly the same as PCGS there would be little reason to submitt coins to them. So the other services grade a little looser and they get submissions. That doesn't mean we should change our standards. That doesn't mean we should cross more coins. We can't cross coins that don't meet our standards and the other services are purposely grading looser than PCGS. Every dealer with an eye...the ones that will tell you the truth that is...knows that PCGS coins are graded a little more conservatively. Any dealer who tells you the coins are the same is probably lying to you about other things as well.

 

 

I don't get the dispute. All points are valid, IMO, except #5 (which may be partially true, depending upon the day of the week).

 

NGC is worthy of respect! Most definitely, but they are not infallible. Hence, the subjectiveness of TPGS's. Blanket statements praising any TPGS as inerrant is nothing but blind faith based upon one's perception at that given moment. David Hall, Rick Montgomery, et al all deserve their place in the numismatic history books. No one is infallible, period. One could stir the pot on any public figure but I prefer to look at the positives. Unless, of course, I get hosed and then I may vocalize my grievence whether publically or privately.

[HaydenTubbs]

Obviously the whole David Hall taking coins into the grading room thing does not alarm you.You may feel as you may but my age has nothing to do with this.

 

Very true. I almost always find you a very intelligent poster who contributes greatly to this forum. Thanks!

Well,I don't know about "contributing greatly",but it's all right with me if you stick around.