Member: Seasoned Veteran CSJournals-migration Posted December 11, 2016 Member: Seasoned Veteran Share Posted December 11, 2016 Think of it from a business point of view ... Question to everyone regarding PCGS coins in the registry. Is it fair to expect NGC to cover the costs of maintaining a database on PCGS inventory? I mean, of the 6 million or so graded PCGS coins, I'd imagine that NGC needs to manually add each coin to their registry OR they have developed a complicated computer algorithm to do this. I would imagine that the costs of this are growing and it is back logging other NGC registry work. This might have a lot to do with this recent decision. Pic unrelated. See more journals by Augustus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser14 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Is it fair to McDonald's that they have to give you ice with a Coke? Is it fair that they have to plow the snow off their parking lots? They charge nothing for either. It's fair because, if they didn't give you ice or plow their lots, you wouldn't go to McDonald's. NGC is a business. Like any business, they'll go belly up if the customers don't come. You give the customer what he wants if it's within your power to do it. Otherwise, he goes somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus 70 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Kaiser, a fairer comparison would be: Should McDonalds absorb the costs of monitoring and logging Burger King's product? I think it is an honest question, as the alternative may be that grading fees are increased or membership fees are increased. In the current economic climate, I don't believe that dealers are making high enough margins to justify an increase in grading fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser14 Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 (edited) Maybe. It's just that if you don't give the customer what he wants, the customer goes elsewhere. If NGC has decided to go niche---moderns and certain foreign---and is willing to sacrifice the rest, it's going in the right direction. And, BTW, you can bet your bottom dollar that McDonald's monitors Burger King's product as closely as they monitor their own. Edited December 11, 2016 by Kaiser14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six Mile Rick Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Man, You guys have me wanting some fresh cooked fries!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walkerfan Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Man, You guys have me wanting some fresh cooked fries!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number200k Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 The cost of adding PCGS coin is through a PCGS API which is available for free. NGC has already invested in scheduled process that references the PCGS API and gets the coin metedata into the registry. So this is going to cost nothing for NGC! Additionally, IMO, cost wise its a one time investment of probably $10k to develop and maintain this program (which NGC already has done). Heck, there are so many numismatists with IT skills like me who would do it for free! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinman_23885 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 The cost of adding PCGS coin is through a PCGS API which is available for free. NGC has already invested in scheduled process that references the PCGS API and gets the coin metedata into the registry. So this is going to cost nothing for NGC! Additionally, IMO, cost wise its a one time investment of probably $10k to develop and maintain this program (which NGC already has done). Heck, there are so many numismatists with IT skills like me who would do it for free! If there is an API, then why is there such a long delay in NGC verifying the certification numbers of PCGS coins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six Mile Rick Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Yes, the cost of the PCGS AP is free but the coins still need to be entered into all the sets manually by a NGC employee. Sounds like someone at NGC will be out of a job come Jan. 1'st. I wonder if NGC is going to offer the same re-holder offer like they did when they booted world PCGS slabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus 70 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 Even re holder deal isn't great. I sent about a dozen PCGS world modern coins for reholdering, paid all the grading fees, and only one or two crossed. Basically, it cost me $200 +shipping to have my coins returned to me in the same holders I sent them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky One Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 NGC and PCGS offer these services for a reason- to sell slabs to people who build registry sets, or to the dealers who service those collectors, period. In my humble but experienced opinion, both grading services get a huge windfall- it doesn't take much time to evaluate and grade a coin, the slabs are cheap as dirt when purchased in the quantities they contract, and the submitter pays for EVERYTHING else. The fees are more than sufficient and the cost to them for maintaining the registry system is a very tiny part of their cost of doing business, so if there is yet another fee increase coming, count me out- I don't *need* to post my coins out here, I do it because I enjoy looking at other's collections and feel an obligation to share mine as well. That's my two cents... By the way- did I miss some important news? Is NGC going to pull the PCGS coins from our registry sets? If that is the case, I will leave NGC and go back to PCGS because I have twice as many PCGS slabs as NGC and will have nothing left to show here except the bones of my collection. Go ahead NGC, shoot yourself in the foot to save a few measly bucks and please your shareholders. Let me know how that works out for you... sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus 70 Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 (edited) I know they pulled all the PCGS coins from the World Moderns sets a few years back and everyone was upset about it. A lot of people left the registry or stopped participating, but over the past 4 years the amount of participation seems to have recovered. I don't know, I guess it is up to NGC what they do. I stopped buying PCGS coins after NGC excluded them from their registry. I also don't find the PCGS registry very user friendly, and prefer NGC's way of doing things. Edited December 12, 2016 by ComeToCanadaNGC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star City Homer Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 I'm pretty sure the announcement read that any PCGS coins already in a set can stay, but no new ones could be added. I didn't start any registry stuff until after the PCGS coins were pulled out of the World sets. It was an unpleasant surprise as I had thought PCGS could still be added. I was REALLY unpleasantly surprised at how many were downgraded (either in a slab or cracked) when I tried. There was an occasional upgrade too, but the down side was more than expected. I've actually had more upgrades from from ANACS (and the occasional downgrade) but at least I expected to get those re-graded. Anyway, as I didn't have any work invested it was a relatively minor attitude adjustment; and, as I do have almost only world coins, I am accustomed to it now. I can't imagine how grumpy (or other word) I would have been if I was already heavily vested in a set and coins were actually removed. In this case though, it's not a removal, just not the addition of new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six Mile Rick Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Yes, all PCGS coins can stay in the sets that they are in. But they cannot be transferred to other members sets. That would require a cross over so that the other collector could add it to their set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultra Cameo Collection Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 PCGS has never allowed NGC coins in their registry. The fact that NGC did allow PCGS at all is nice but was never required. Most feel the NGC registry is a better community and/or better laid out website for keeping their collections organized. I own some PCGS coins and almost every one I own is somehow inferior to the same graded NGC coin. Either the PCGS one will be milky or has ugly damaging toning. When it comes to modern US proof coinage all you have to do is look at the population numbers and you can see that PCGS's standards are lower. For some years PCGS has more than 50 graded 70DCAM and NGC still has not seen a single coin that would meet their 70UC grade. I own a 1975 10c PF70UC and also a PCGS version. Side by side it is laughable. The PCGS coin is totally inferior. Also it was about 10% of what the NGC one cost. This is the case for modern US proof coinage. I can't speak to other sets or series because I don't collect them or haven't done any research. I bet you can guess what side I am in favor of. I would go even further and remove all PCGS coins from the NGC registry. It will probably happen, someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus 70 Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 I'll go out on a limb here and say that I like both grading services, but I prefer the NGC registry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 PCGS has never allowed NGC coins in their registry. The fact that NGC did allow PCGS at all is nice but was never required. Most feel the NGC registry is a better community and/or better laid out website for keeping their collections organized. I own some PCGS coins and almost every one I own is somehow inferior to the same graded NGC coin. Either the PCGS one will be milky or has ugly damaging toning. When it comes to modern US proof coinage all you have to do is look at the population numbers and you can see that PCGS's standards are lower. For some years PCGS has more than 50 graded 70DCAM and NGC still has not seen a single coin that would meet their 70UC grade. I own a 1975 10c PF70UC and also a PCGS version. Side by side it is laughable. The PCGS coin is totally inferior. Also it was about 10% of what the NGC one cost. This is the case for modern US proof coinage. I can't speak to other sets or series because I don't collect them or haven't done any research. I bet you can guess what side I am in favor of. I would go even further and remove all PCGS coins from the NGC registry. It will probably happen, someday. What is the 1975 10c PF70UC you're speaking of? I'm not aware of a US coin like that. Regardless, in saying "This is the case for modern US proof coinage" you made a gross and inaccurate generalization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brg5658 Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 The cost of adding PCGS coin is through a PCGS API which is available for free. NGC has already invested in scheduled process that references the PCGS API and gets the coin metedata into the registry. So this is going to cost nothing for NGC! Additionally, IMO, cost wise its a one time investment of probably $10k to develop and maintain this program (which NGC already has done). Heck, there are so many numismatists with IT skills like me who would do it for free! There is not a PCGS API. You have clearly never entered a PCGS coin into your coin manager. Nothing is automated via a web API. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultra Cameo Collection Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 (edited) http://imgbox.com/sOKY2h1W Here is the coin in question with a population of 2. There are 126 from PCGS that grade PR70DCAM Edited December 14, 2016 by Wells Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkFeld Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 (edited) http://imgbox.com/sOKY2h1W Here is the coin in question with a population of 2. There are 126 from PCGS that grade PR70DCAM That's a 1975-S. You had said 1975. Big difference! Edited December 14, 2016 by MarkFeld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky One Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 I know they pulled all the PCGS coins from the World Moderns sets a few years back and everyone was upset about it. A lot of people left the registry or stopped participating, but over the past 4 years the amount of participation seems to have recovered. I don't know, I guess it is up to NGC what they do. I stopped buying PCGS coins after NGC excluded them from their registry. I also don't find the PCGS registry very user friendly, and prefer NGC's way of doing things. I agree, NGC has a much better site and seems to take care of us a lot better than PCGS, but keep in mind that the real reason they are excluding PCGS slabs is because, if you want to display you *entire* set, you'll have to either sell your PCGS coins and replace them with NGC or try to cross them over, either way it is a case of simple social engineering for profit, nothing more, nothing less. IF NGC does this woth my type set, Lib nick set or either of my gold sets, I have no reason to continue displating my sets, so what will that get them? Sure, the young generation will continue to compete in the moderns arena and waste their money but neither NGC or PCGS care as long as a good share of the profits end up in their own pockets. But what does that do to the overall *rare* coin market and the meat of the hobby? I say they are destroying the only bridge between the young and old, and in the end, the older collectors who spent lifetime fortunes on truly rare classic coins will have a lot less opportunities to sell their collections when they need the money the most. I'm hoping I'm very wrong, but if history is any guide, when the disconnect between generations happens in any hobby, it is rarely re-connected to any great degree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky One Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 PCGS has never allowed NGC coins in their registry. The fact that NGC did allow PCGS at all is nice but was never required. Most feel the NGC registry is a better community and/or better laid out website for keeping their collections organized. I own some PCGS coins and almost every one I own is somehow inferior to the same graded NGC coin. Either the PCGS one will be milky or has ugly damaging toning. When it comes to modern US proof coinage all you have to do is look at the population numbers and you can see that PCGS's standards are lower. For some years PCGS has more than 50 graded 70DCAM and NGC still has not seen a single coin that would meet their 70UC grade. I own a 1975 10c PF70UC and also a PCGS version. Side by side it is laughable. The PCGS coin is totally inferior. Also it was about 10% of what the NGC one cost. This is the case for modern US proof coinage. I can't speak to other sets or series because I don't collect them or haven't done any research. I bet you can guess what side I am in favor of. I would go even further and remove all PCGS coins from the NGC registry. It will probably happen, someday. with all respect, the PCGS coins in my set are usually a little nicer than the NGC coins, not because either is better, but because that is how it worked out as I carefully selected coins for my sets. In all respect, if you buy a lot of coins with spots, ugly toning or weak features, luster or frost, it isn't PCGS's fault that so many ended up in your sets is it? I prefer to buy the very best for the grade even if it cost me a ten percent premium- in my experience, I will get every penny back out of the premium coin when I need to sell, but normally will take a 10 or 20% loss in a pinch when the coin is just average or below for the grade. Try buying only premium coins and you'll never be disappointed again when you view your sets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky One Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 http://imgbox.com/sOKY2h1W Here is the coin in question with a population of 2. There are 126 from PCGS that grade PR70DCAM I'm not sure if it works the same way for these, but for some of the series I have collected, the majority of the coins graded were sent to PCGS vs NGC, so if PCGS grades twice as many of a series as NGC, their numbers will look much higher for some of the rarer grades. While I understand the differences you are speaking of are much more outrageous, there are many factors, primarily that each service has different criteria for those attributes, and the real market will price each by their comparable quality regardless of the grade on the slab. No harm done financially if you do your homework, right? Maybe if you look at proportions, the numbers will look a little more sensible. I don't have the time to look and I admit up front that I may be wrong, but sometimes people jump to conclusions based on personal bias without allowing the facts and numbers guide their opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTO Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) I would like to add my worth. I agree with a number of the discussants that it is unreasonable to expect NGC to bare the cost of manually and training PCGS coins into their registry. One option, which I suspect PCGS would agree to, is to have PCGS allow NGC to access their database. At that point whatever number you enter, assuming it's a valid PCGS Number would Auto populate the slot with everything from the correct grade and modifier ("+", details grade, etc...." to even the picture if that is available in the PCG S database. It should work as smoothly as when you use the "check certification" on the PCGS (or NGC website for that matter). I think this is a common sense no cost solution. And after experiencing the recent Election that means it clearly will not work. The likelihood of getting PCGS and NGC to cooperate is about is likely as Donald Trump appointing Hilary Clinton to his Cabinet. The reason I even bring this possibility up is because it would actually be in PCGS's best interest. I fear that NGC's decision to stop accepting PCGS will not work out well for NGC (to whom I have greater loyalty). Also the consequences of the current move may further destabilize the coin market, which, I perceive to be somewhat precarious at this time. My worth, John Edited December 15, 2016 by JTO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky One Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I would like to add my worth. I agree with a number of the discussants that it is unreasonable to expect NGC to bare the cost of manually and training PCGS coins into their registry. One option, which I suspect PCGS would agree to, is to have PCGS allow NGC to access their database. At that point whatever number you enter, assuming it's a valid PCGS Number would Auto populate the slot with everything from the correct grade and modifier ("+", details grade, etc...." to even the picture if that is available in the PCG S database. It should work as smoothly as when you use the "check certification" on the PCGS (or NGC website for that matter). I think this is a common sense no cost solution. And after experiencing the recent Election that means it clearly will not work. The likelihood of getting PCGS and NGC to cooperate is about is likely as Donald Trump appointing Hilary Clinton to his Cabinet. The reason I even bring this possibility up is because it would actually be in PCGS's best interest. I fear that NGC's decision to stop accepting PCGS will not work out well for NGC (to whom I have greater loyalty). Also the consequences of the current move may further destabilize the coin market, which, I perceive to be somewhat precarious at this time. My worth, John agree with you- I'd much rather display my sets here at NGC but if they don't allow PCGS coins, I will have no choice but to leave. One of my sets is Liberty nickels and PCGS grades the majority of them so I have mostly PCGS coins in that set- it would be nearly empty if I couldn't add PCGS coins as I upgrade. My half eagle set is probably half PCGS, another one that would look barren without the PCGS coins, and I think my quarter eagles are mostly PCGS too, and my type set is heavy in PCGS. NGC will lose a lot of registry sets, and since PCGS only allows PCGS coins in theirs, I think NGC will take a huge hit in business since anyone who has a lot of PCGS coins in their sets will likely go to PCGS for future grading needs. I hope the NGC board has considered the potential loss of many customers carefully because I personally look at it as a slap in the face. There is always a hidden cost of doing business and I think I'd rather incur a small expense to avoid losing many loyal customers if I was NGC... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ledford Collection Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I have not been on this forum for a long time so forgive me if I ask a stupid question. I just recently became a little more active in my coin collection and entered some recent purchases to a registry set. My PCGS coins are not appearing so that they can be added. Is this something new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
