Are Heritage auctions real? 1 1

[Oldhoopster]

On 5/31/2022 at 1:54 PM, VKurtB said:

My opinion of auction houses is greatly biased by virtue of living in Pennsylvania for 66 years and working with and around the Secretary of the Commonwealth’s office for quite a few of those years. Pennsylvania takes the policing of auctions EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY. It’s very tough to become a licensed auctioneer and extremely easy to have said license revoked. “House bidding” and “shill bidding” WILL get your license at least suspended, no exceptions. So yeah, to me, Heritage and others like them are “unethically run auctioneers” by Pennsylvania standards.  Many many people sell their houses in Pennsylvania at auction rather than with a realtor. Auctions are baked into my state’s culture. 

But wait, didn't you read the fine print when you applied for an Alabama drivers license?  You renounced your 66 years as a Yankee now that you're a citizen of the #1 State in the Union (at least alphabetically)

[VKurtB]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:15 PM, Oldhoopster said:

But wait, didn't you read the fine print when you applied for an Alabama drivers license?  You renounced your 66 years as a Yankee now that you're a citizen of the #1 State in the Union (at least alphabetically)

Yeah, it’s kinda cool not to hafta wait so long to get your state’s delegate count, and not hafta scroll down so far on forms online with a state. But I’ll be in Pittsburgh in 2023 and I know PA auction law. 

[numisport]

I strongly recommend (to anyone who plays at auction for coins) that you read this entire thread. There's information there that I did not know after bidding for 6 or 7 years now. I was aware of Heritage history though which was enough to steer me away years ago.

[VKurtB]

On even further research, I have discovered that in Pennsylvania, “house bidding” and “shill bidding” risk not ONLY administrative penalties (those related to licensing) but they are also literal Title 18 CRIMES in Pennsylvania, which subject an auctioneer to fines and/or imprisonment. If a consignor wants lowball protection, the only method is “auction subject to a reserve price”. That’s Pennsylvania. 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Local auctions rarely have the coins I want in the grades I want.  The big auction houses do.  The sum of the bid and BP has to fall within my budget for the coin, or I don't buy it.  I lose more than I win.

Have a budget.  Think in terms of your total purchase price.  Stick to your budget... and you will be fine.  Embrace losing.  The more you lose, the less you will have your heart set on that one coin and overpay.

Note: If you are after a coin that comes to auction once every 5 years - you have serious thinking to do.  But, I still highly suggesting having a budget and writing that number down on a piece of paper as you get into the heat of the auction.

[zadok]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:03 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Local auctions rarely have the coins I want in the grades I want.  The big auction houses do.  The sum of the bid and BP has to fall within my budget for the coin, or I don't buy it.  I lose more than I win.

Have a budget.  Think in terms of your total purchase price.  Stick to your budget... and you will be fine.  Embrace losing.  The more you lose, the less you will have your heart set on that one coin and overpay.

Note: If you are after a coin that comes to auction once every 5 years - you have serious thinking to do.  But, I still highly suggesting having a budget and writing that number down on a piece of paper as you get into the heat of the auction.

...sure fire formula to never get the coins u really want....the taste of not getting the coin is worse than the taste of over paying...if u really want it just buy it n then u have no remorse or having to deal with the fact that the coin may never surface again to buy....if u r a buyer/collector of the 5 star coins u should have already faced the question of can u afford to really collect what u want.....

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 6/3/2022 at 5:10 PM, zadok said:

...sure fire formula to never get the coins u really want....

I disagree.  I have a budget for every coin I am after.  I also have a "stretch" number.  If I paid stretch for every coin I was after, shame on me.  I base my numbers on auction results and dealer prices.  I want to remove as much emotion from my buying process as possible.  We all have our own systems, and I manage to find a decent coin every once in a while.  But, I don't think anyone would consider me a "5 Star" collector either.

Edited June 3, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[VKurtB]

I’m with Neo on this one. I NEVER overpay at auction. I feel it would be a stain on my mother’s memory to overpay at an auction. She is from Anabaptist Pennsylvania German plain people stock (horses and buggies at her funeral by the dozen). If I can’t metaphorically “steal” it at auction, it wasn’t meant for me to have. 

[zadok]

On 6/3/2022 at 5:33 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I disagree.  I have a budget for every coin I am after.  I also have a "stretch" number.  If I paid stretch for every coin I was after, shame on me.  I base my numbers on auction results and dealer prices.  I want to remove as much emotion from my buying process as possible.  We all have our own systems, and I manage to find a decent coin every once in a while.  But, I don't think anyone would consider me a "5 Star" collector either.

...i guess the operative words r ....budget n every once in a while....i dont have the first when it involves something i want n i wouldnt be satisfied with adding to my collection infrequently...my goal(s) r to ultimately complete my collections...as mentioned i dont like knowing i passed on something i wanted/needed? n have to wait not knowing if going to become available again....agree we all have r systems that work for us as it should be.....

[zadok]

On 6/3/2022 at 5:57 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m with Neo on this one. I NEVER overpay at auction. I feel it would be a stain on my mother’s memory to overpay at an auction. She is from Anabaptist Pennsylvania German plain people stock (horses and buggies at her funeral by the dozen). If I can’t metaphorically “steal” it at auction, it wasn’t meant for me to have. 

....yea but i bet ur mother didnt collect coins...i dont consider it overpaying, price guides r subjective n arbitrary n someone elses opinions, yes based on previous sales results, but those numbers r just what someone was willing to pay at that point in time...i dont base my purchases on what i could sell them for its more of what id be willing to sell for if i was going to sell....but we all need to be able to live with our purchases....

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:02 AM, zadok said:

...i guess the operative words r ....budget n every once in a while....i dont have the first when it involves something i want n i wouldnt be satisfied with adding to my collection infrequently...my goal(s) r to ultimately complete my collections...as mentioned i dont like knowing i passed on something i wanted/needed? n have to wait not knowing if going to become available again....agree we all have r systems that work for us as it should be.....

I am very proud of my progress in my collecting goals.  Not just in the coins I have bought, but also what I have learned.  I am always learning, so slow and steady is the way for me.  I can never collect like a billionaire, so I have to collect smart.  Feel free to check-out my progress on my registry profile anytime.  

I wish you luck in the accomplishment of your collecting goals also.  I love your Half Eagle set 

Edited June 4, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[VKurtB]

On 6/4/2022 at 7:07 AM, zadok said:

....yea but i bet ur mother didnt collect coins...i dont consider it overpaying, price guides r subjective n arbitrary n someone elses opinions, yes based on previous sales results, but those numbers r just what someone was willing to pay at that point in time...i dont base my purchases on what i could sell them for its more of what id be willing to sell for if i was going to sell....but we all need to be able to live with our purchases....

I have literally NEVER paid over what ANY price guide said at the time. I usually paid 40-50% UNDER current price guides. 

[zadok]

On 6/4/2022 at 10:41 AM, VKurtB said:

I have literally NEVER paid over what ANY price guide said at the time. I usually paid 40-50% UNDER current price guides. 

....that sounds reasonable for common coins....

[zadok]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:45 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I am very proud of my progress in my collecting goals.  Not just in the coins I have bought, but also what I have learned.  I am always learning, so slow and steady is the way for me.  I can never collect like a billionaire, so I have to collect smart.  Feel free to check-out my progress on my registry profile anytime.  

I wish you luck in the accomplishment of your collecting goals also.  I love your Half Eagle set 

....well that complete set would entail 225 coins, both expensive n a bit overwhelming trying to find that many coins that would present well, therefore; current goal is to do the non-motto issues n if/when decide add in the C n D coins....that set alone would take away too much time to allow progress on other sets...i think im in 30+ registry sets n another 30+ sets that r not in registry...pretty soon i can wallpaper my house in number 1 certificates may have to build bigger house n adopt a kid that likes coins.....

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:52 PM, zadok said:

....well that complete set would entail 225 coins, both expensive n a bit overwhelming trying to find that many coins that would present well, therefore; current goal is to do the non-motto issues n if/when decide add in the C n D coins....that set alone would take away too much time to allow progress on other sets...i think im in 30+ registry sets n another 30+ sets that r not in registry...pretty soon i can wallpaper my house in number 1 certificates may have to build bigger house n adopt a kid that likes coins.....

I know I will not win any awards.  I just love the coins.  Those monster sets are intimidating, and I have not touched gold. I stick to shorter sets and copper.  I am enjoying the ride - the more I learn, the more I find I need to learn.  It's great.

Good luck with the set, and the new house and the kid.  All great things, and the little ones are the best of all!

[zadok]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:45 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I am very proud of my progress in my collecting goals.  Not just in the coins I have bought, but also what I have learned.  I am always learning, so slow and steady is the way for me.  I can never collect like a billionaire, so I have to collect smart.  Feel free to check-out my progress on my registry profile anytime.  

I wish you luck in the accomplishment of your collecting goals also.  I love your Half Eagle set 

...reviewed ur registry sets, impressive...i see u r into the coppers, very demanding sets, especially if u go into the 1/2c by major varieties, almost as exhaustive as trying to do overton halves...i have a friend who has complete overton minus one coin, only took him 55 years...re ur set of  "16" i have that set complete, but all r "holed" was very challenging...there bout 4 that r extremely diff to find n nother 4 that cost bunch of money even with holes.....

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

I love copper coins.  I am not going to do a full Cohen Variety set, but possibly a "Red Book" set without a few dates (i.e 1796), because I would be unhappy with the coins I can afford.  I am a work in progress, but the learning is really my favorite part of collecting and the coins inspire that.

Edited June 5, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[zadok]

On 6/4/2022 at 11:01 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I love copper coins.  I am not going to do a full Cohen Variety set, but possibly a "Red Book" set without a few dates (i.e 1796), because I would be unhappy with the coins I can afford.  I am a work in progress, but the learning is really my favorite part of collecting and the coins inspire that.

...coin collecting is a learning journey....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/4/2022 at 10:41 AM, VKurtB said:

I have literally NEVER paid over what ANY price guide said at the time. I usually paid 40-50% UNDER current price guides. 

Maybe from time-to-time or years (decades) ago....but I doubt you could do that with a popular series today with the internet.  Too much competition and knowledge and transparency.

[VKurtB]

On 6/6/2022 at 8:03 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe from time-to-time or years (decades) ago....but I doubt you could do that with a popular series today with the internet.  Too much competition and knowledge and transparency.

I don’t do Internet. And I have done that well several times in the last year. Early coppers and Seated Liberty mostly. Less common in Alabama, but a weekly opportunity in Pennsylvania.  

Edited June 6, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:03 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Local auctions rarely have the coins I want in the grades I want.  The big auction houses do.  The sum of the bid and BP has to fall within my budget for the coin, or I don't buy it.  I lose more than I win. Have a budget.  Think in terms of your total purchase price.  Stick to your budget... and you will be fine.  Embrace losing.  The more you lose, the less you will have your heart set on that one coin and overpay. Note: If you are after a coin that comes to auction once every 5 years - you have serious thinking to do.  But, I still highly suggesting having a budget and writing that number down on a piece of paper as you get into the heat of the auction.

You have to make a decision.  If I know a coin RARELY comes up for sale -- and the one on HA is really really pristine-looking -- then sometimes you swallow hard and pay up.  You probably kick yourself more if you pass and never find a coin as nice....rather than pay up and at least you got your Dream Coin even if you paid up for it.

Coins that are always available you can afford to wait for your price.

[World Colonial]

I have consigned to GC twice but never to another.  I have no complaints with my experience at Heritage (or Stacks, Sedwick...)  as a buyer but would be more interested in those who have sold with any of these firms.

Edited June 6, 2022 by World Colonial

[World Colonial]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:15 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You have to make a decision.  If I know a coin RARELY comes up for sale -- and the one on HA is really really pristine-looking -- then sometimes you swallow hard and pay up.  You probably kick yourself more if you pass and never find a coin as nice....rather than pay up and at least you got your Dream Coin even if you paid up for it.

Coins that are always available you can afford to wait for your price.

There is never any point in paying "strong money" for common coins.

I don't collect any common coins by most collector's standards, but by my definition, most supposedly scarce or rare coins are common.  There is also a big difference in availability.  US coins are invariably more available than those from elsewhere even with the same scarcity.  The value also makes a difference, as many owners see no point in selling inexpensive coins that are actually hard to buy for the amount they can obtain. 

A low to very proportion also sell (very) infrequently due to the affinity (for lack of a better term) collectors have for it.   As an example, comparably scarce or even (somewhat) more common US colonial and territorial gold in my observations are much harder to buy than most US federal coinage.  The 1804 dollar and 1913 LHN are both rare, but not really that hard to compete for, for the limited number who have the funds.  Both come up for sale every few years.  The reason?  The buyers like it a lot more, even if most collectors do not.

[zadok]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:12 AM, VKurtB said:

I don’t do Internet. And I have done that well several times in the last year. Early coppers and Seated Liberty mostly. Less common in Alabama, but a weekly opportunity in Pennsylvania.  

...Liberty outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed....

[zadok]

On 6/6/2022 at 7:45 PM, zadok said:

...Liberty outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed....

...censor modified i guess?...outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed...

[zadok]

On 6/6/2022 at 7:46 PM, zadok said:

...censor modified i guess?...outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed...

 

On 6/6/2022 at 7:46 PM, zadok said:

...censor modified i guess?...outside-affiliatelinksnotallowed...

....just doesnt like that word....anyway she is sitting down.....

[zadok]

On 6/6/2022 at 3:06 PM, World Colonial said:

I have consigned to GC twice but never to another.  I have no complaints with my experience at Heritage (or Stacks, Sedwick...)  as a buyer but would be more interested in those who have sold with any of these firms.

...all of the above...it just depends on the particular audience u r seeking for ur specific coins, each has its (+)s n its (-)s.....

[zadok]

On 6/6/2022 at 3:18 PM, World Colonial said:

There is never any point in paying "strong money" for common coins.

I don't collect any common coins by most collector's standards, but by my definition, most supposedly scarce or rare coins are common.  There is also a big difference in availability.  US coins are invariably more available than those from elsewhere even with the same scarcity.  The value also makes a difference, as many owners see no point in selling inexpensive coins that are actually hard to buy for the amount they can obtain. 

A low to very proportion also sell (very) infrequently due to the affinity (for lack of a better term) collectors have for it.   As an example, comparably scarce or even (somewhat) more common US colonial and territorial gold in my observations are much harder to buy than most US federal coinage.  The 1804 dollar and 1913 LHN are both rare, but not really that hard to compete for, for the limited number who have the funds.  Both come up for sale every few years.  The reason?  The buyers like it a lot more, even if most collectors do not.

...define scarce n rare....to me less than 50 n 5 or less.....arbitrary numbers im sure depending on whom u ask...just curious urs?....

[World Colonial]

On 6/6/2022 at 7:56 PM, zadok said:

...define scarce n rare....to me less than 50 n 5 or less.....arbitrary numbers im sure depending on whom u ask...just curious urs?....

Yours are reasonable.

Availability is more important.  That's what I was explaining with the three factors in my post.  Because of the price level and numismatic "infrastructure" (such as auction and dealer network), any US coin with 50 can usually be bought within a year or less close to "market price".

[MarkFeld]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:18 PM, World Colonial said:

There is never any point in paying "strong money" for common coins.

I don't collect any common coins by most collector's standards, but by my definition, most supposedly scarce or rare coins are common.  There is also a big difference in availability.  US coins are invariably more available than those from elsewhere even with the same scarcity.  The value also makes a difference, as many owners see no point in selling inexpensive coins that are actually hard to buy for the amount they can obtain. 

A low to very proportion also sell (very) infrequently due to the affinity (for lack of a better term) collectors have for it.   As an example, comparably scarce or even (somewhat) more common US colonial and territorial gold in my observations are much harder to buy than most US federal coinage.  The 1804 dollar and 1913 LHN are both rare, but not really that hard to compete for, for the limited number who have the funds.  Both come up for sale every few years.  The reason?  The buyers like it a lot more, even if most collectors do not.

For many of us, there absolutely is a point in paying strong money for common coins - when they’re of exceptional quality and/or beauty and we want to acquire them.