Tungsten filled bullion gold

[RWB]

This post on PCGS might be of interest to bullion buyers.

 

Altered AGE

[Conder101]

Even with the poor pictures the seam is pretty clear on the reverse.

[CaptHenway]

Just ran this under U.S. Coins before I saw Roger's post here:

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There is a story ATS under both bullion and coins about three gold eagles that were hollowed out and a tungsten disc inserted. Done like the two-headed magician coins...one side and reeded edge left intact to form a cup, the tungsten disc inserted into the cup, and then the face of another coin glued over the disc. The seam is on either side where the field of the coin meets the raised rim.

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Passes X-ray or other tests because the exterior is original 22kt gold. Weight right.

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DOES NOT PASS RING TEST!

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TD

[numisport]

Tungsten has approx. the same density as gold and is relatively inexpensive. Weight was pretty close I'm sure.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

"Meltdown," who started the thread ATS, should tighten up his report. It's too loose for something so devestatingly impactful on AGEs.

 

He needs to clarify if all five coins were dead on the ring test, or were just the three coins that were taken apart and found to be tungsten filled.

 

Scales can always be suspiciously calibrated to save money. For this reason, for example, companies that want to be ISO 9000 certified have their scales calibrated by scale-calibrating professionals who come in, calibrate with a variety of weights, and it's a tricky procedure.

 

The best proof, for a quick and dirty test, is to weigh known, genuine AGEs, and then weigh the coin under consideration. You can then determine a certainty of the weight being within a range of believability. This would be just one of the metrics.

 

A certainty would be 95%, 97.5%, 99%, or even better; these sorts of terms. Depends how much time you want to put into it. But I would suspect that gold buyers have a lot of metrics, "hoops" so to speak, that you, the seller, have to jump through to complete the deal.

 

I would suspect that the "law" is hot on this trail now, because one person shows up with at least three coins being deceitful. This isn't over yet. I think a whole expose can be expected to follow suit on this tale. One person, and 3 out of 5 coins? The guy who showed up with the coins, he'll be interviewed with a bright light in his face.

 

Knows nothing?

 

He knows something, that's for sure.

 

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

I've seen a fair number of sub-$20 gold piece counterfeits, incuse gold has been a common tactic, fool sharp dealers. A "gold" plated silver bar was recently offered at a local auction, not ringing the usual alarm bells until a major bullion buyer red flagged it. I hadn't heard of US eagles being faked before. A savvy sleaze seller can offer them to less than the sharpest buyers and gladly take 70% of spot price, cash deal only. Eventually the buyer will get the painful truth and then bring them back hopefully finding the original scammer. Not that likely with cash deals.

[Conder101]

The best proof, for a quick and dirty test, is to weigh known, genuine AGEs, and then weigh the coin under consideration. You can then determine a certainty of the weight being within a range of believability. This would be just one of the metrics.

 

A certainty would be 95%, 97.5%, 99%, or even better; these sorts of terms. Depends how much time you want to put into it.

Problem is since gold and tungsten have almost identical densities they would also have almost identical weights so weighing the coin would give you that believable certainty. You might not even be able to tell these using a SG test. The only thing that would throw it off would be the tiny amount of air gap between the tungsten disk and the rest of the coin. The smaller that can make that gap the closer the SG will be. And since it is difficult to get beyond one decimal place without precision equipment there is a very good chance it would not be detectable.

 

I wonder if these would be detectable with ultrasound?

[PerryHall]

The best proof, for a quick and dirty test, is to weigh known, genuine AGEs, and then weigh the coin under consideration. You can then determine a certainty of the weight being within a range of believability. This would be just one of the metrics.

 

A certainty would be 95%, 97.5%, 99%, or even better; these sorts of terms. Depends how much time you want to put into it.

Problem is since gold and tungsten have almost identical densities they would also have almost identical weights so weighing the coin would give you that believable certainty. You might not even be able to tell these using a SG test. The only thing that would throw it off would be the tiny amount of air gap between the tungsten disk and the rest of the coin. The smaller that can make that gap the closer the SG will be. And since it is difficult to get beyond one decimal place without precision equipment there is a very good chance it would not be detectable.

 

I wonder if these would be detectable with ultrasound?

 

Most people will not have access to fancy equipment but careful examination with a 10X loupe and performing the ring test should be more than adequate to unmask these fakes. These fakes don't worry me in the least.

[WoodenJefferson]

The AGE's were taken to the wrong buyers, coin dealers. Had they been taken to one of those kiosk or yellow page gold buyers, they would have probably slid past the buyer.

 

Maybe the seller didn't know they were juiced with tungsten, perhaps the coin dealer offered more than a bullion/scrap dealer and got greedy caught, who's to say.

 

This would be a felony, no?

[Conder101]

Most people will not have access to fancy equipment but careful examination with a 10X loupe and performing the ring test should be more than adequate to unmask these fakes. These fakes don't worry me in the least.

 

I agree completely. In fact in the second post I pointed out that the seam was visible in the pictures even though the pictures were bad. My comment was mainly addressing the comment about identifying them by weight.

 

As for "fancy equipment" a down and dirty SG testing set up can be made from a pocket scale, bent coat hanger, piece of string, paper clip, and a glass of water. And it will probably be good enough to get to one decimal place.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

As all of my "few" coins have always been slabbed, and therefore guaranteed, a good visual is always nice, to reveal what everyone is talking about.

 

Personally, an amazing revelation for me is that I've never held a modern AGE in my hand, or watched someone demonstrate the ring test.

 

Even the shimmery "cartwheel" test I have never seen done before, or done it myself.

 

All of that is included here.

 

Enjoy.

 

[RWB]

"This would be a felony, no?"

Yep. Just like making counterfeits or fake dies in Colorado or Shenyang City.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Here's a short ring test YouTube. (Turn up your volume.)

 

When the "Perfect Hit!!" happens it really is a thing of beauty to behold.

 

Learned yesterday that 24K gold coins do not exhibit the ring test. Has something to do with metal alloying to get a ring.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Aren't US eagle fakes extremely rare?

 

What bullion coins are the most common counterfeits?

[RWB]

Cheap precision tools make it easy to do this at a kitchen table next to the wok.

[CaptHenway]

Just curious as to how tight that seam is. What would happen if you took a small beaker of water with a drop of dishwashing detergent in it to break up the surface tension and stood the coin on edge in the beaker? Would air bubble out of the seam at the top as water leaked into the coin?

 

TD

[RWB]

Maybe if it was heated....?

[WoodenJefferson]

Just curious as to how tight that seam is. What would happen if you took a small beaker of water with a drop of dishwashing detergent in it to break up the surface tension and stood the coin on edge in the beaker? Would air bubble out of the seam at the top as water leaked into the coin?

 

TD

 

Yes, but you would need to put a vacuum in the beaker in order to expand the air trapped inside the clam shell.

[RWB]

Will it work with oysters, too? Vacuum shucking...?

[Nutmeg Coin]

I'm partial to titanium, a little expensive but makes great cookware.

[dcarr]

"This would be a felony, no?"

Yep. Just like making counterfeits or fake dies in Colorado or Shenyang City.

 

You keep posting this same basic thing over and over again, more than a dozen times already.

 

Are you expecting a different result ?