Grading opinions welcome on a rare one

[Lucky One]

Here's one that I'd welcome opinions of grade on, and feel free to give your reasoning:

[physics-fan3.14]

Let's get the elephant out of the room:

 

Are you sure (and how do you know) that it is genuine?

 

Assuming it is genuine, it looks to have VF-30 details, but possibly cleaned (based on how I am interpreting the pictures).

[Lucky One]

Let's get the elephant out of the room:

 

Are you sure (and how do you know) that it is genuine?

 

Assuming it is genuine, it looks to have VF-30 details, but possibly cleaned (based on how I am interpreting the pictures).

 

yes, definitely genuine, have a lot of experience with these. (have one of the most complete sets in the country with just 14 missing from the long date/mm set) Possibly ultrasonic'd or dipped but shows no signs of a cleaning with nice surfaces and a good bit of mild mint luster...

[Lucky One]

be careful everyone, some Carson City half eagles need to be understood to be greaded properly

[MarkFeld]

It looks genuine and AU to me - at least AU53, quite possibly higher, judging by the stronger obverse.

[physics-fan3.14]

I'll admit, I know little about these. If Mark says it is AU, then I'll trust him.

 

Are these known for having weak strikes? Because that reverse really doesn't look AU to me.... with my limited knowledge.

[MarkFeld]

I'll admit, I know little about these. If Mark says it is AU, then I'll trust him.

 

Are these known for having weak strikes? Because that reverse really doesn't look AU to me.... with my limited knowledge.

 

I agree that the reverse looks less than AU. But based upon the better obverse detail, I am attributing the reverse to strike.

[tommy44]

AU50 -53. Has the rim been filed around 5 o'clock on the reverse?

[Afterword]

AU-50.

[Lucky One]

all great guesses, no more clues until everyone has weighed in but I'll catch up to your questions soon. I posted another one that I doubt anyone will guess- good luck!

[Lucky One]

AU50 -53. Has the rim been filed around 5 o'clock on the reverse?

 

I don't remember seeing any filing marks but I think it may have been a lightly clipped planchet (note the depressions on the obv and rev rims in the exact same position) that didn't fill the rim in completely when struck. I'll look at it if I can get to the bank and let you know.

 

All great observations everyone, and great eyes too, exactly what it takes to avoid mistakes on the bourse!

[e1cnr]

I am going to go with VF30, but would say I do not have enough experience with these to spend over $3K on a raw one. I am also concerned about rims filed/damage to get in a straight grade.

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/1877-cc-5-vf30-pcgs/a/1142-4680.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

 

 

[BillJones]

I'd grade it AU-50. The obverse had me thinking AU-55, but there are too many little marks on it to make that grade. I think that the color is actually pretty good. It does not have that "washed out" totally dipped look to it.

[johnny9434]

ill go au 50 or so. fwiw on my grading of gold as well.

[Lucky One]

I'd grade it AU-50. The obverse had me thinking AU-55, but there are too many little marks on it to make that grade. I think that the color is actually pretty good. It does not have that "washed out" totally dipped look to it.

 

you have a good eye and I agree with you, based on the photos. Up close and personal, it is a 50 in my opinion, mainly because of the possibility that it was dipped because it is a bright coin but this shade of yellow seems to be the proper color for the issue. It could also just be circulated to the point that the original luster is worn to that level of mildness. I have seen many similar looking coins in straight graded slabs though, so I guess it depends on the assessor and his perception of natural or original. I am a very picky collector though, so I usually hit anything that doesn't look, well, perfect for the grade, so I call it what you call it- somewhere between 50 and 55.

 

As for your comment on the number of marks- the strong LED light that I used has a double bar of smaller LEDS that tend to accentuate every little mark as well as reflect off the luster in a way that makes the marks stand out more than they do in hand. This coin has very few ticks and nice smooth surfaces. If the luster and strike were a bit stronger I would go 55, but like I said, I am very picky and I think that would be too much of a stretch...

[Lucky One]

I am going to go with VF30, but would say I do not have enough experience with these to spend over $3K on a raw one. I am also concerned about rims filed/damage to get in a straight grade.

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/liberty-half-eagles/1877-cc-5-vf30-pcgs/a/1142-4680.s?hdnJumpToLot=1x=0&y=0

 

 

this brings up a pet peeve of mine- too often I find coins graded without regard to the typical striking characteristics for the issue- when they have no real world knowledge of a particular series, they just default to the amount of detail remaining instead of properly assessing the amount of wear after it entered circulation. I have seen MS63 and 64 capped bust halves without a touch of wear or circulation marks graded AU 55 or AU58 simply because the grader had no knowledge of the issues.

 

As for the example in your link- it is hard to tell without having a coin in hand because a 2d photo taken head on like this can't show the relief of the high points well, but it appears to have more wear than my coin and is graded close to what I woulod grade it- it has a little too much wear on the eagle's wing in the center and the same amount of wear is evident on the obverse too, so I would call this a VF35 if I'm reading the photos right and say the graders knew what they were looking at in this instance. It's when you throw a good share of luster into the mix that it can get difficult. I have seen plenty of VF coins with mint luster that were actually VF, but the wear was obvious and the issues were not normally struck weakly. It's a guessing game sometimes, but you shouldn't guess without a lot of experience in my humble opinion.

 

As for the rims- I made it to the bank in time and looked at it under my 10X diamond loupe and I can say with conviction that the coin was struck on a planchet that was either rough and shallow at that spot or had a small planchet clip, the void of which prevented the gold to be struck up fully into the collar. The evidence is even more convincing on the reeding- it is not struck all the way into the collar either and looks perfectly natural for a light clip, so this wouldn't affect the grade in any way.

 

Also, keep in mind that you are looking at a photo enlarged to about 10X so what you see on the screen is nothing like what you'd see in-hand. Great observation though, these are the kinds of questions that I always ask myself before deciding whether to make an offer on a coin. This coin gave me no bother at all in that respect and I was happy to pay a fair sum for this rare little beauty.

[Lucky One]

It looks genuine and AU to me - at least AU53, quite possibly higher, judging by the stronger obverse.

 

I usually guess what you'll say on a grade out here and figured you'd say 50 or 53. I wish I could put this in the hands of the pros replying here though, always nice to hear opinions when the opiners can look at it 'up close and personal'.

 

If I'm not mistaken, you're about fifty so you probably remember how the old timers in the business graded these. For the sake of the younger readers here I'll add that they were graded much like large cents and they were very strict, so a coin like this one may have been graded XF instead of AU, not based on the lack of detail or because they considered it wear, but because it wasn't a full strike, something that was much more important in those days since there were so many less collectors and you usually had the opportunity to be picky. Today, however, even a weakly struck rare date like this is very desireable and truly rare, even when lightly cleaned, as long as it has good overall eye appeal.

 

Thanks for the opinions Mark, it is very useful to get professional opinions mixed in with the rest of ours out here...

[MarkFeld]

It looks genuine and AU to me - at least AU53, quite possibly higher, judging by the stronger obverse.

 

I usually guess what you'll say on a grade out here and figured you'd say 50 or 53. I wish I could put this in the hands of the pros replying here though, always nice to hear opinions when the opiners can look at it 'up close and personal'.

 

If I'm not mistaken, you're about fifty so you probably remember how the old timers in the business graded these. For the sake of the younger readers here I'll add that they were graded much like large cents and they were very strict, so a coin like this one may have been graded XF instead of AU, not based on the lack of detail or because they considered it wear, but because it wasn't a full strike, something that was much more important in those days since there were so many less collectors and you usually had the opportunity to be picky. Today, however, even a weakly struck rare date like this is very desireable and truly rare, even when lightly cleaned, as long as it has good overall eye appeal.

 

Thanks for the opinions Mark, it is very useful to get professional opinions mixed in with the rest of ours out here...

 

Sorry, you're mistaken - I'm 61

 

Always happy to try to assist.

[Lucky One]

Wow, a little older than I thought & you look younger you lucky dog. I'm sure you worked around a lot of the old timers then, and I am going to the generation before yours. Again, for the benefit of the younger readers here, most were a lot different than today's dealers. They knew how to grade and rarely depended on help from others except on the most difficult things and most had a great broad and intimate knowledge of 18th and 19th century issues because moderns weren't even seriously considered back then- if it didn't have silver or gold in it and wasn't a cent of some sort, it wasn't generally considered collectable by serious collectors.

 

Grading was tougher too, and the grading scale wasn't numerical in any way, not even the Sheldon scale was about grading. When I started collecting in 1965, it went like this: Good, VG, Fine, VF, EF, Unc, BU. Period. If we could bring those old dealers back to life they'd be screaming at us like the founding fathers would be screaming at the fools on the hill. (Washington, D.C.) It is also fun to look at old numismatic advertising and see a coin that looks AU called VF, or a gem top grade mint state piece called just 'BU' or 'BU, choice'. Good often looked like today's VG's and F looked more like today's VF's. Gradeflation is very real and grading has changed drastically even in the past decade with the longest bull run in the hobby in nmy lifetime and likely anyone's living today.

 

I was lucky to have been taken under the wing of a half dozen Pittsburgh old time coin dealers (there was about a dozen shops at the time in the sixties and seventies that I frequented, not all owners were as forthcoming) and they taught me more in that first decade than I have learned since, and I am still learning. Today's dealers, no disrespect intended to anyone personally, don't need to know as much as back then since they have little fear of making a mistake. With so many third party opinions available today, they need only buy a pile of slabs and put an ad in a numismatic publication and they're set. Most collectors also don't know how to grade so it makes a modern dealer's job that much easier. Back then they didn't even have a computer to share photos and knowledge, so they really had to seek out their own knowledge and cure to what would otherwise be failure. I thrived back then and I thrive today, but would the average non-numismatist slab dealer or collector?

 

Which brings me to what I think is the most important thing a collector can do today: learn how to grade and understand surface alterations, period. It is the very basis of the value of their collection and too many think they can sell their coins back to a dealer in the future at the grade on the slab, but many will be in for a real surprise when their overgraded slabs are rejected by most dealers unless heavily discounted. I have seen a lot of really horrible mistakes in top name slabs and every time I see one I know it will end up with an ignorant fool, but it really didn't need to end that way.

[Walkerfan]

Knowing nothing about how these were struck; I'd have said XF 45 shot at AU 50.

[coinman_23885]

Not my series... but I'll call it XF45.

[Lucky One]

Thanks to you all for your opinions, it appears the concensus is XF45 to AU50, which is right in line with my expectations. To me though, grade alone means nothing, condition is more important, but owning a true scarcity like this date from the Carson City mint is much more important than either so I'm just glad I could find such a nice piece to fill that hole in my set. Hope everyone else has been as fortunate in their searches. Happy collecting everyone!

[Lucky One]

Knowing nothing about how these were struck; I'd have said XF 45 shot at AU 50.

 

and even then it would depend on whetehr the trio grading it had a member who was well versed in early half eagles. I have seen nmany XF and AU coins labeled a grade lower simply because the grading team didn't allow for typical strikes. A coin grade is different from the condition, or condition of the dies or pressure of the equipment striking it. The grade of a coin is absolute, but the condition is multi-faceted. Too many graders today, whether amateur or professional, don't take all aspects into account. Since the strike is a function of the mint and not affected after the striking, it should not lower the grade any more than a planchet clip or peel- the grade is still dependent on how much of the coin was worn away, not how much remains. On a coin that still exhibits mint luster and most of the high detail, it is important to look at the typical striking characteristics of the issue before deciding the coin's grade. As I said elsewhere, I have seen gem BU capped bust halves of typically weakly struck varieties graded AU58 simply because the graders didn't understand the series. If you ever have an opportunity to view some mint state bust halves, look for one with perfect luster everywhere but where the high points of the coin would be, and then put a glass to the flat spots where the high points should be (cheek of Ms. Liberty, shield and wing feathers, arrow tips, etc) and you'll lsee that those surfaces look like they have circulation marks in them. That is because the striking pressure wasn't sufficient to push the silver up into those deep recesses on the die, so whatever the condition the planchet was in at the time of striking is what you will see.

 

What this leads me to believe is that most professionals are no longer numismatists, and that many are just uninterested slab vendors and have no clue about such things, but they should. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they have no right, but remember that every action has an unintended consequence, and in this case I see young graders grading coins for the TPGs who don't have the training or real world experience with some of the series that they need to be proficient at grading those series.

 

I've had many arguments to that concept but the evidence is in hundreds of slabs across every bourse floor in the business- all one needs to do is go look for what I describe and then you'll understand. And while you're at it, look out for those gem BUs in AU58 slabs- they are your ticket to a 'lossless' hobby.

 

Don't be afraid to learn- he who knows more wins more often...

[Lucky One]

I'd grade it AU-50. The obverse had me thinking AU-55, but there are too many little marks on it to make that grade. I think that the color is actually pretty good. It does not have that "washed out" totally dipped look to it.

 

I just had to click on your links and look at your sets and I have to say you have a great eye for quality. You obviously came from the same school as me- any job not done right ain't worth doing! (my dad was an Army lifer and beat that mantra into my head) Many of your coins are top of the grade and well picked for eye appeal, a beautiful collection. Thanks for sharing them with us!