What was inside a US Mint vault?

[RWB]

In another thread a participant expressed confusion about what mint employees knew of the identity of coins in a vault. The assumption was that they were identified by date and mint of origin.

 

Here is a sample vault seal copy from the Denver Mint. This was placed on a wax-sealed ribbon to tell future employees what the vault contained. Removing the seal required permission from the Mint Director.

 

 

Notice the absence of any reference to the date on coins or the mint of origin. While the Vault Custodian's informal ledgers sometimes identified contents by date/mint, normal practice was what you see on the slip of paper.

 

In this instance, we know that some of the double eagles and eagles were made in San Francisco and shipped east to take advantage of ample storage at Denver. But we don't know how many coins were involved or in which compartment they were stored.

 

Of course, there were exceptions. Vault seals of the Philadelphia Mint sometimes had coin date information. This example is from 1929.

 

 

Here we know the exact denomination, date and quantities of coins contained in this vault cage and the date this cage was sealed. Occasionally the tags will show the original sealing date, also.

[#]

Well I'm gonna let my ignorance flag fly. Do you think the govt / mint have any gold coins (pre 1933) stashed away somewhere or just bullion; hopefully.

[bstrauss3]

Of course they have 10,000s of 1933 Double Eagles. They use them in Roswell to prevent the flying saucer from flying away...

[#]

Wow glad I was just curiously naive instead of stupid and unfunny. Also the question was about PRE 1933. That's means before 1933 as in 1932 and back. I wasn't interested in the 10 or so 1933 double Eagles. As far as the space ship, everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want.

[mumu]

Wow glad I was just curiously naive instead of stupid and unfunny. Also the question was about PRE 1933. That's means before 1933 as in 1932 and back. I wasn't interested in the 10 or so 1933 double Eagles. As far as the space ship, everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want.

 

That is the strongest reaction to a silly non-personal attack joke ive ever seen.

[Conder101]

Do you think the govt / mint have any gold coins (pre 1933) stashed away somewhere or just bullion; hopefully.

Just bullion. There was a directive in I believe the 1940's (Don't remember the exact date) to melt down all the gold coins in storage and convert them into bars. I don't believe they refined the gold but left it as 900 fine bars.

[#]

Wow glad I was just curiously naive instead of stupid and unfunny. Also the question was about PRE 1933. That's means before 1933 as in 1932 and back. I wasn't interested in the 10 or so 1933 double Eagles. As far as the space ship, everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want.

 

That is the strongest reaction to a silly non-personal attack joke ive ever seen.

 

Well I'm certainly not going back and reviewing your numerous impolite responses as they're too many. You even stated it was an attack; since it was directed at me that's personal.

As far as the original question, the govt DID find hoard a silver dollars in the late 1960's or early 1970's that were forgotten. So it is a legitimate question, unless of course you have inside information that even Ron Paul didn't get after his tour of the vaults the seventies.

[DWLange]

There was a directive in I believe the 1940's (Don't remember the exact date) to melt down all the gold coins in storage and convert them into bars.

 

The stored gold coins were melted starting in 1936, with most of it occurring during 1937, when the Fort Knox Bullion Depository was completed.

[RWB]

RE: " Do you think the govt / mint have any gold coins (pre 1933) stashed away somewhere or just bullion; hopefully."

 

Actually, it's a very good question.

 

The answer is somewhat incomplete but we can make some reasonable conclusions from the available information.

 

Most melting of US gold coins in Treasury custody took place from 1935 to 1937. The bars of coin gold (0.900 fine) were delivered to Fort Knox Bullion Depository and the vaults sealed. Additional US gold coins were melted over the next 30 years as coins were redeemed by US and foreign owners. Many of these bars are in the New York FRB vaults. (But - see my article in an up-coming issue of The Numismatist for more information.)

 

Foreign gold coins were also melted, cast and segregated by fineness, although most were later refined to good delivery bars of 0.999+ gold.

 

Multiple records of the Treasury, Mints and FRB system prior to and during WW-II show that the NYAO did not melt all of the coins they had. Rather, several million dollars in US gold coins and French Francs, Italian Lira and British Sovereigns were retained for possible future use. During the war, these coins were used by the Army to help fund intelligence work in North Africa, the Balkan states and Italy.

 

The following excerpt from my research book (unpublished mss) might help:

 

“Funding for intelligence encompassed a wide range of activities. Frequently, intelligence operatives needed gold coins – the most universally accepted medium of exchange – to buy information. Other, more routine needs, such as transportation, clothing, food, drink, housing and supplies, could be covered with paper money.” Although one might assume the U.S. Army would use U.S. gold coins, this was not the case. The designs on small denomination American gold were generally unknown outside of the U.S., and they had never been an active part of international trade. The most widely accepted gold coins were British sovereigns and half sovereigns, and French Napoleons (20 Fr.), with Canadian $5 and $10 also used on occasion, such as the Sicilian invasion.

 

During the weeks prior to the Allied invasion of North Africa on November 8, 1942 (Operation Torch), G-2 expert General Mark Clark carried one hundred Louis d’or coins as he and his small party secretly traveled to Algeria in North Africa. They met with Vichy officials including General Charles Mast, the French commander-in-chief in Algiers. The gold was used to bribe local Vichy officials and helped Clark determine if the Americans would be welcomed as liberators or opposed as invaders.

 

Another use for gold coins was in escape kits carried by Allied aircraft during missions in North Africa and the Middle East. During the initial phase of Operation Torch, $700,000 in gold was authorized for use by the Twelfth Air Force in the kits and by General George Patton to reward native informers for speedy performance of essential services where natives would not accept paper currency.

 

[see also: Rundell, Walter. Military Money: A Fiscal History of the U.S. Army Overseas in World War II. Texas A&M University Press. 1980.]

 

Following the war, the Treasury quietly retained all foreign gold coins that might be of future use. Some US gold was retained for reference purposes and possible future need, but most that came in - including the 1933 DE confiscated in the 1940s - were melted.

 

Since WW-II the Treasury has kept custody of the foreign coins in NYAO/NYFRB and they have been a source of material assisting intelligence operations. Vietnam-era pilot and counterintelligence kits were in routine use, also.

 

The short answer: There are probably $1 million in US gold coins floating about Treasury and FRB facilities in addition to coins held for FRB collections and public display. The quantity of foreign gold is probably much greater - maybe $20 million at present. These continue to be used for clandestine operations (along with Viagra in some tribal areas).

 

 

 

[RWB]

There was a directive in I believe the 1940's (Don't remember the exact date) to melt down all the gold coins in storage and convert them into bars.

 

The stored gold coins were melted starting in 1936, with most of it occurring during 1937, when the Fort Knox Bullion Depository was completed.

Documents exist that show the gradual draw-down and melting of gold coins at the Philadelphia Mint and NY Assay Office by date and quantity melted. Unfortunately, it is only rarely possible to show when a specific date of coin was melted.

 

The work began in August 1934 with a peak in 1935-36. It created considerable strain on staff resources.

[numisport]

This leads us to what I think would be another great topic. Where is all that gold ? Does anyone have any links to [or information on] just what is at Fort Knox currently if anything ? I have a feeling when Obama leaves office it wont be with just the White House china and maybe we should check his pockets on the way out.

[numisport]

Okay forget the last sentence but how can we find out what really is at Fort Knox ?

[RWB]

Attempting to respond to conspiracy-minded people and ideological-faith folks is not possible. They believe what they "believe" and no amount of logic and fact will change that - actually, arguing only strengthens their faith because it validates that their faith is important to someone.

 

However, it is correct that Fort Knox contains less gold than commonly reported. The reason is very simple: each time a gold bar is moved, a minute quantity of gold is abraded from the bar. As was immediately noted in 1937, bars that weighed 4,000 ounces at the Philadelphia Mint weighed very slightly less when checked at Fort Knox after a week-long train ride. Treasury decided to avoid wasting the time required for re-weighing and then re-stamping every bar. So they used the point of origin values, then rendered everything the bars had touched to recover "lost" gold.

 

I don't have numbers for the Philadelphia Mint and NYAO, but the gold shipped from Denver to Ft. Knox left a total of just over 400 T oz. in packing boxes, hand trucks, gloves, aprons, etc. This was credited against the Denver Mint delivery. The information is not secret - it's just that nobody looked for it.

 

If Denver was typical, then several hundred ounces vanished when gold coins were shipped from SF to Denver in the teens, and again when sent to Fort Knox. This also ignores the vaporization losses during melting, plus sweeps, etc.

 

As a percentage of the total gold holdings at Ft. Knox and NYFRB, the "deficiency" is minute and effectively unrecoverable.

[numisport]

When was this gold last viewed ? 1979 ? It seems like such a large bunker of gold should be confirmed thus putting to rest any conspiracy thoughts anyone might have.

[GoldFinger1969]

This leads us to what I think would be another great topic. Where is all that gold ? Does anyone have any links to [or information on] just what is at Fort Knox currently if anything ? I have a feeling when Obama leaves office it wont be with just the White House china and maybe we should check his pockets on the way out.

 

1.Thread high jacking

2.Political propaganda

3.Possible racism

 

Guess the strike policy is on hiatus?

I took it as a joke....lighen up.

[GoldFinger1969]

Okay forget the last sentence but how can we find out what really is at Fort Knox ?

We've had audits before and the U.S. gold reserves at the NY Fed and Fort Knox have been meticulously audited.

[GoldFinger1969]

When was this gold last viewed ? 1979 ? It seems like such a large bunker of gold should be confirmed thus putting to rest any conspiracy thoughts anyone might have.

If the Conspiracy Nuts want to foot the bill, then they can have another audit.

[CaptHenway]

This leads us to what I think would be another great topic. Where is all that gold ? Does anyone have any links to [or information on] just what is at Fort Knox currently if anything ? I have a feeling when Obama leaves office it wont be with just the White House china and maybe we should check his pockets on the way out.

 

Please keep any racist and/or political screeds to yourself.

[jpcienkus]

Roger will probably have the answer but I THOUGHT I read some where that three different Presidents were refused admittance to Ft. Knox. I have no idea if this is true but would really be disturbing if so...I know very little about the vaults except for a very interesting show on the history channel about two years mostly about security. It did show several vaults that appered full of gold bars. The footage was decades old. My wife says coins are just old man porn, if true then that show was IT! IMHO

 

I saw a show about Ft. Knox's security just recently. Might have been the same show you referenced. It was very interesting.

 

 

[RWB]

I think (this is my memory---haven't checked) the last full physical examination was in 1999 when a sampling was made and a tiny borehole drilled to confirm the presence of bars.

 

Fort Knox has static vaults - ones that are not opened - for the melted coin gold. It has other vaults that hold newly received and earmarked gold. For a while, silver was also stored there. One must remember that the coin gold bars represent only a small fraction of the gold at Ft. Knox. During the 1930s and especially after the onset of WW-II in Europe, huge quantities of gold flowed into the United States. This was not hoarded, but later used to stabilize the world economy after the war, to rebuild Europe and support the Bretton Woods economic agreements.

 

(As a practical matter, coin gold bars are not acceptable for international good delivery.)

 

The vault sealing process was the same as at the Mints, except sealed vaults remained that way from year to year. I would expect to find most of the original seals in place.

[GoldFinger1969]

Previous unauthorized failed audit at Fort Knox:

 

[RWB]

Ahhh....had forgotten about that one and the "Kerwood Derby" hat.

[CaptHenway]

Ahhh....had forgotten about that one and the "Kerwood Derby" hat.

 

I remember Kerwood Derby.

[numisport]

Nice little vault tour and that hat is even more deadly than the gold bar.