The problem with the “Wannabe” Threads.

[Newmismatist]

I posted this over on the PCGS boards in response to several Posts by Legend Dealing with "Wannabes" I think she has also posted here in the past about "Wannabes"

 

I occasionally post on these boards - and have for the past several years - I view them as a place where collectors and dealers from all walks of life and all over this country (and actually the world) can come and share knowledge, coins and our collective experiences and as a result we all can come away a little better for the experience. I’ve collected coins for over 55 years - I know a lot of very reputable dealers, I have bought coins from many dealers over the years and can personally report only a handful of bad experiences.

 

I’ve recently read the series of “Wannabe” threads, many of which have been started by Laura Sperber of Legend and those started in response to her threads. Here’s my comments to those threads and why:

 

1. Laura has attempted to alert collectors to a problem which has existed in the Numismatic hobby/business as long as I can remember - her message could be summarized easily and succinctly:

 

There are dealers in the coin industry who will unfairly take advantage of uninformed collectors. Some dealers will do that intentionally and they know full well that they are engaged in sharp practices. Other dealers do the same thing, not intentionally, but because they themselves lack the requisite knowledge to know what they are doing and because of their lack of real numismatic knowledge they end up selling “bad” coins to collectors - either because they are problem coins or because they are over-priced for what they are and the collector will loose money on the coin because price-wise, it’s maxed out.

 

Without the rant, that is my perception of Laura’s message. I agree with it whole heartedly and it’s one that ALL collectors need to be cognizant of at ALL times when buying coins for their collections.

 

2. There is a serious problem with the methodology of Laura’s message - in her various formats that have been presented here in the past week or so: She has cloaked her message in a “one-size fits all” phrase: “Wannabe” - which can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. Why? Because her “one-size fits all” definition unfortunately includes many legitimate coin dealers who are ethical, honest and treat their customers fairly. She confuses “Big” with Honest. If we’ve learned nothing in the past several years: “Big” includes the likes of Enrol, MCI-WorldCom, Tyco and others.

 

She also confuses “Professional” in the context of a “Professional Coin Dealer” with honesty. Again, although as a collector we are all much better when we rely on those persons who make their living as professional coin dealers, be careful with confusing these two different concepts: “professional” and “honest” - they are definitely NOT interchangeable. Again one only need look at the stock market debacle of the past several years. Here’s an interesting excerpt dealing with Professional Stock Analysts:

 

New York Attorney General, Elliot Spitzer, brought an action against Merrill Lynch and its superstar internet analyst, Henry Blodget, to "prevent further fraud, to protect the rights of the investing public…." Merrill agreed to pay a fine of $100 million and made a commitment to maintain "objectivity" in stock picks.

 

In a separate action involving Jack Grubman of Salomon Smith Barney, Spitzer found: "Grubman issued misleading ratings of stocks in favor of investment banking clients…[T]he ratings Grubman issued were not independent, objective or on the merits." Grubman is now banned from the securities industry, and SSB agreed to pay $400 million as part of its settlement with securities regulators.

 

All of those named above were both “Big” and “Professional” - and they lied and cheated the public and each of us “Big Time!” $400-$500 Million is not chump change.

 

3. The more she attempts to explain who or what she means by the term “Wannabe” the more she compounds the original error. She further compounds her message by using herself and her company as the standard for a “Non-Wannabe” dealer which has the end result of touting herself. Though this may not been her intent, it has the same end result when she responds to other board members who have pointed out that her term “Wannabe” includes (or may include) many legitimate and honest coin dealers: She gleefully tells us that she and her company handle mega coins, have mega clients, go to mega shows, attend mega auctions and do 30 million dollars worth of business.

 

4. Again, although the message: “There are some bad dealers out there who can cause you, the collector serious economic harm” - is meant to help us all, it gets lost in a thread which tells us to “Trust me” but gives a one-sided rendition of how a Collector got screwed and contains NO facts that would support the conclusion. That unfortunately is the worst methodology to convey the message. If we’ve learned nothing on these boards it ought to be that there are 2 sides to every story. Laura’s “Trust me, I know better” mantra is EXACTLY how the Collector got screwed in the 1st place (if indeed he got screwed). He “trusted” what someone ALLEGEDLY told him and he made a purchase, not based on knowledge, but blind faith. The complete lack of the factual details completely destroys any possibility that we as collectors can learn anything from the proffered message. Several forum members have correctly pointed out that there are NO facts to support the conclusion and that what is being offered as “Proof” of a bad dealer (the ubiquitous “Wannabe” dealer) is a completely ONE-SIDED version of what happened filtered through a rant by someone with a clearly biased agenda i.e. I’m gonna get those “Wannabes”. Before I participate in a "Mob-Lynching", I'd like to know the facts! PLEASE! We might just find out that the REAL problem lies with the collector (it happens) and all we're getting is his "spin", presented second hand with no attempt at fairness. Laura may be 100% correct in what she is reporting to us - but with no FACTS - we'll never know. I for one much prefer to base my decisions AND conclusions on "Facts" - blind faith is how the whole thing started - and we only know that because Laura tells us it's so.

 

5. By the time we get into the middle of these “Wannabe” threads, they have degenerated into a series of threats, posturing, egos run amuck and name calling of the worst nature - Unfortunately, Laura confuses the heat generated by this methodology with her “white-knight” mission of helping the poor collector. I sometimes think that the sub-conscious purpose of the “Wannabe” threads is not really to help the poor “screwed” collector, but to draw attention to the messenger as a means of re-affirming her status as one of the major “Players” in the coin industry. I don’t believe that is the initial intent, but as the threads progress, the messenger bludgeons the reader with the repeated message that its “only the big dealers who are looking out for you” - followed by the clear implication that she is indeed one of the biggest and all we need do is “Ask around” i.e. “Who has the most respect?” - Being respected because one spends lots of money at auctions, has wealthy customers and deals in very expensive coins is NOT the equivalent of being a fair and honest dealer. That said, my last comment is not to indicate that Laura or Legend are not fair and honest - I have had dealings with them and have never had a problem - my point is simple: NEVER confuse “Big” and “Expensive” with “Fair and Honest” - they may be the same, but then again, as with Enron, Tyco and MCI-WorldCom they may be just the opposite. The logical syllogism is: “All Poodles are Dogs, but All Dogs are NOT Poodles”.

 

6. The sad part of these threads is that what has really happened is that few, if any collectors or forum members have been helped by the message, which though meant to be helpful, has been poorly presented. These “Wannabe” threads have only served to polarize many very intelligent forum members in hostile camps. These threads are corrosive and do more damage and consequently do NOT help any of us learn how to buy accurately graded coins at fair prices so that we can enjoy this wonderful hobby.

 

I believe Laura to be a decent and honorable person, I believe she means well and wants to help collectors enjoy this hobby - this comment based on personally dealing with Laura - and I will add, I doubt very much if I’m a favored customer of Laura’s. As a long time collector who enjoys this hobby immenselly, I would ask that she re-think the method that she is using to help us. The same is true of many who have responded to her threads. Many very intelligent and helpful comments have gotten buried in the flames. Threads that use labels and preach “fire and brimstone” will not raise the level of our collective knowledge - the message will get lost in the flames and smoke - and that is precisely what has happened here.

 

IMHO, these threads have degenerated into a “Mob” mentality, and that has not helped any of us. How about we get back to sharing information, knowledge and useful ideas so that we can all enjoy this hobby and the coins that we love? Just a few thoughts after having spent too much time in the Florida sun.

[LucyBop]

All a collector has to do is study and show himself/herself approved. Do their homework, learn about grading a specific series they are ineterested in, and they will be okay...

 

 

These so-called wannabe dealers whomever they might be, can very easily get their clocks cleaned by a knowledgable collector.

 

I know that one without a doubt.....

[Newmismatist]

These so-called wannabe dealers whomever they might be, can very easily get their clocks cleaned by a knowledgable collector.

 

I know that one without a doubt.....

 

Lucy - how very true - Knowledge is power and it helps a collector find & buy the bargains, the rare varieties and the under-graded coins - it also helps to prevent buying over-graded mistakes and doctored coins - In the end, it's the collector who needs to know what he/she should or shouldn't buy - the dealer, whether a "good" dealer or a "bad" dealer has his own economic interest in mind in every transaction, not the collectors interests - some are just more "fair" when separating you from your hard earned money.

[SilverDollarMan]

again, i say. Good read

[Tradedollarnut]

The problem with the Wannabe threads is that not only have they taken over the PCGS Coin Forum, but now they are spilling across the street as well!

[GoYankees]

It's like Edgar Allen Poe's Red Death. There's no escape from it.

 

BTW I'm not a wannabe, I am!

 

[TomB]

The advice is good.

 

Thankfully, we have not been infested with knee-jerk, poorly thought out, flaming, posturing and otherwise proving one is a fool posts and threads. Let's hope it stays that way.

[jom]

Thankfully, we have not been infested with knee-jerk, poorly thought out, flaming, posturing and otherwise proving one is a fool posts and threads.

 

Shut the hell up you dolt...what do you know?!

 

 

Great info there Newmismatist and something every newbie should read and understand.

 

jom

[Boom]

I've come to know Laura as of late and have had several very open "heart to hearts" with her. Personally, I like her and admire her for her Numismatic knowledge/ accomplishments and her tenacity in a very volatile and dare I say, "Cut throat" industry.. Her personal story is true to her Company's Name....."Legend." Her accomplishments are truly Legendary. BUT, there's something about Laura......

 

While I respect her for many reasons IMHO she has the potential to be an even greater human being if she would be less confrontational and learn the meaning of the word "Humble."

 

As I've told her before, I am neither easily impressed nor intimidated on any level by anyone on this planet. For me to say that I truly respect someone is not to be taken lightly. Like Laura, there is a side of me that will lock horns with anyone, anytime. But I have also learned that talk is cheap. You have to show me. There's a time to be heard and a time to listen.

 

I do not mean this in a negative sense but if she would cease being so overbearing, so confrontational and let people come to her as I have, she would gain much more respect from the Numismatic Community as a whole. The woman is a wealth of information. She does not HAVE to be so "in your face" all the time.

 

"You catch a lot more bees with honey than you do with vinegar." I say this only because I like her and would love to see her BE a truly great human being/ Numismatist.

[SilverDollarMan]

I agree but U left out attitude. Or pride!

[cpm9ball]

I've come to know Laura as of late and have had several very open "heart to hearts" with her. Personally, I like her and admire her for her Numismatic knowledge/ accomplishments and her tenacity in a very volatile and dare I say, "Cut throat" industry.. Her personal story is true to her Company's Name....."Legend." Her accomplishments are truly Legendary. BUT, there's something about Laura......

 

While I respect her for many reasons IMHO she has the potential to be an even greater human being if she would be less confrontational and learn the meaning of the word "Humble."

 

As I've told her before, I am neither easily impressed nor intimidated on any level by anyone on this planet. For me to say that I truly respect someone is not to be taken lightly. Like Laura, there is a side of me that will lock horns with anyone, anytime. But I have also learned that talk is cheap. You have to show me. There's a time to be heard and a time to listen.

 

I do not mean this in a negative sense but if she would cease being so overbearing, so confrontational and let people come to her as I have, she would gain much more respect from the Numismatic Community as a whole. The woman is a wealth of information. She does not HAVE to be so "in your face" all the time.

 

"You catch a lot more bees with honey than you do with vinegar." I say this only because I like her and would love to see her BE a truly great human being/ Numismatist.

 

Boom , this entire thread has been very interesting reading. Although I do not know Laura Sperber, from what has been said, here, I can surely empathize with her. I have been known, on occasion, to be very hard-headed and stubborn when I truly believe in something. I can't shake it loose....it's just not in my nature to be a diplomat....and I often admire those who have this "gift".

 

I don't think anyone should fault another for being what they wannabe when it is their life, future and aspirations they must answer to....not someone else. Some of the people on these boards might consider me a wannabe because I have yet to quench my thirst for knowledge and probably never will. If that day ever comes, I may as well just lay down and die.

 

As for being confrontational, if you respect a person for who they are, it shouldn't matter. Personally, I think that confrontation is a positive if it is used to encourage another to carefully examine their beliefs and motives...... it gets the juices flowing and the brain cells working.

 

Chris

 

PS. Flies are attracted to honey....bees are attracted to pollen!

[errorist]

I don't know about "Wannabes"! But I do like "Wallabies"

[Newmismatist]

To those that have read and responded to my post - I hope all understand that it is NOT bashing Laura Sperber or Legend - Her underlying message is correct - My concern is that the method of delivery, coupled with the all encompassing phrase "Wannabe" has virtually obliterated what her message is/was intended to be - What I'm trying to accomplish is to point out what the message OUGHT to be and perhaps focus on a better method of presentation.

 

While confrontation is sometimes necessary, it is not a particularly effective method of teaching. While a physically larger person, or an economically bigger entity can intimidate and "man-handle" (woman-handle?) a physically smaller or less wealthy person, they will hardly "teach" them anything other that fear and loathing - A bludgeon-like delivery can destroy every good message, no matter how well intentioned. JMHO

 

Edited to add - My 300th post - perhaps a good one, or maybe just in the wind!

[errorist]

"Edited to add - My 300th post - perhaps a good one, or maybe just in the wind!"

 

Sort of like this fella?

 

http://conecaonline.org/image/2000S25cMAsilverProofDieCrack.JPG

[Newmismatist]

"Edited to add - My 300th post - perhaps a good one, or maybe just in the wind!"

 

Sort of like this fella?

 

http://conecaonline.org/image/2000S25cMAsilverProofDieCrack.JPG

 

 

Where's the ROFL emoticon when you need it?

[the_Thing ®]

I've always just thought she was some fat chick who can't get a man (seen her picture? if she sunbathed on a beach GreenPeace would try to push her back into the ocean) and for some reason likes people to think she has the balls of John Wayne.

[Oldtrader3]

I have a problem with the descriptor "Wannabe" is the implication that it fuels dishonesty which is a character flaw. I feel that this pertains more to personal integrity. This integrity concept should be, but sometimes is not, independent of market cap., net sales or personal wealth. Oppportunities to steal large amounts of money attracts dishonest people in many industries.

 

There are certainly sharks swimming in the coin collector pool. Some are dealers. Some are collectors. All of us that have been around for awhile, know a few (large or small) who wannabe be bigger because they wanna steal more.

[the_Thing ®]

I don't know. She has tired to act like a gun slinger for some time now. Ever since she ate Jonas, she just ain't been the same. Maybe it upset one of her stomachs?

[SilverDollarMan]

To those that have read and responded to my post - I hope all understand that it is NOT bashing Laura Sperber or Legend - Her underlying message is correct - My concern is that the method of delivery, coupled with the all encompassing phrase "Wannabe" has virtually obliterated what her message is/was intended to be - What I'm trying to accomplish is to point out what the message OUGHT to be and perhaps focus on a better method of presentation.

 

While confrontation is sometimes necessary, it is not a particularly effective method of teaching. While a physically larger person, or an economically bigger entity can intimidate and "man-handle" (woman-handle?) a physically smaller or less wealthy person, they will hardly "teach" them anything other that fear and loathing - A bludgeon-like delivery can destroy every good message, no matter how well intentioned. JMHO

 

Edited to add - My 300th post - perhaps a good one, or maybe just in the wind!

 

Not at all, i look forward to reading ur informative post. Thx Newmismatist.

[cpm9ball]

To those that have read and responded to my post - I hope all understand that it is NOT bashing Laura Sperber or Legend - Her underlying message is correct - My concern is that the method of delivery, coupled with the all encompassing phrase "Wannabe" has virtually obliterated what her message is/was intended to be - What I'm trying to accomplish is to point out what the message OUGHT to be and perhaps focus on a better method of presentation.

 

While confrontation is sometimes necessary, it is not a particularly effective method of teaching. While a physically larger person, or an economically bigger entity can intimidate and "man-handle" (woman-handle?) a physically smaller or less wealthy person, they will hardly "teach" them anything other that fear and loathing - A bludgeon-like delivery can destroy every good message, no matter how well intentioned. JMHO

 

Edited to add - My 300th post - perhaps a good one, or maybe just in the wind!

 

Not at all, i look forward to reading ur informative post. Thx Newmismatist.

 

AGREED!

 

Chris

[Boom]

Well, surfing the boards is similar to holding a remote in your hand. Just as you can choose what to watch on the tube, we all click on the threads that we might find....."Entertainig!"

 

I have to agree with Newmismatist though. There is definitely something confrontational with the delivery. There was a point in time that she "wanted to be" a dealer. Looks like she forgot her own humble beginnings. It's nice to be proud of your accomplishments but you can do so without being so..... condescending.

 

I'm not sure the term "wannabe" is appropo anymore. Maybe it ought to be changed to Phony or make believe....ahhh "Pretenders"! There are some dealers that cannot grade to save their necks. Then there are those that overgrade everything. Brother, they won't stay stuck in stupid very long if they don't learn how to PDQ, just the same as not being able to detect cleaned coins and or counterfeits.

 

Knowledge is Power and people that have it don't usually run around banging a Gong drawing attention to themselves. "An empty Barrel makes the most noise." I'd better stop before this study in Human Behavior Patterns gets OT.

 

I do believe she actually "gets off" by being so condescending and confrontational. I suppose there is some deep-seede reason why she is as she is. Pity too, because she really has a lot to offer.

[SilverDollarMan]

Excellent point Boom.

btw How did the Foundation do this christmws? I never checked back.