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NGC's reponse to adjusting the Presidential MS point posted by walnutto

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What is ignored most is the fact that most people collecting clads put them in folders long ago and forgot about them- who would waste their money to slab such common coins?

 

And what folders are these exactly. Whitman apparenly produced no folders at all for clad quarters until 1984. I watched for these and the very first I saw was 1984. I still have it but it's no longer pristine. It's probably a real collector's item itself.

 

Did you know that until 1992 Madison Avenue invariably used a photo of a silver quarter in their advertising?

 

Modern bashing has been going on for a very long time.

 

Are you aware that there is still no album for clad quarters because there is almost no demand? Most clad quarter collecting is an extension of silver quarter collecting. Most silver quarter collectors don't take the clad very seriously. If you look at the '82-P quarter in these sets it will almost invariably be a slider or an AU.

 

Perceptions are the result of belief and beliefs often aren't tied closely to reality.

 

As for price guides like the Red Book or the greysheet and online price guides, who cares what they say- they are merely a guide. I have paid double book for some dates in the half eagle series and have paid multiples for some dates, it is the reality of the situation. When an issue isn't seen on the market for years, how do you keep up with values? Try to buy an 1863 or 1864 half eagle for anywhere near guide prices!

 

Sure... ...you know what you're doing in half eagles. But when you were a newbie and had never spent mnore than $10 for a single coin would you have paid $600 for a coin that lists for $15 in the Redbook?

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And what folders are these exactly. Whitman apparenly produced no folders at all for clad quarters until 1984. I watched for these and the very first I saw was 1984. I still have it but it's no longer pristine. It's probably a real collector's item itself.

 

OK.I just checked my collection of Whitman clad quarter folders and found one from 1978. I had forgotten about this.

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"What you ignore most is the fact that most people collecting clads put them in folders long ago and forgot about them- who would waste their money to slab such common coins?"

 

 

 

I am not supporting any speculation presented on this issue. It could go either way. There are too many unknowns to believe otherwise. Only time will tell.

 

However, I will contribute to the speculation.

 

 

 

I would think that at $500 for an MS-67 and over a $1,000 for a 1982 P quarter, more of these coins, at these grades and prices, would be slabbed. People would be searching through their rolls of coins or folders, and, upon finding these gems, many would either have them slabbed for selling or for preservation. Those who believed there were more out there in quantity would sell while the selling was good. Those who believed there were only a few out there would wait until the price was right. But, either way, many would likely be slabbed.

 

If there are a lot of people hording a million or more of these coins - and all would not be casual collectors - at least a few hundred of these individuals would follow auction results and trends in the market.

 

there is good humor out here occasionally. I'm not laughing at you and hope you'll see the irony in your post- you start out by saying you won't support the speculation but end up supporting it with speculation anyway. I know you warned us but come on- how can anyone say with a straight face that EVERY 1982 quarter that wasn't in pliofilm was eventually spent, and it appears some believe they were all put back into circulation by 1985. That is a silly notion, especially since I remember dealers selling bags of these with 100, 200 & 500 pieces per bag. It's also silly when considering that 980,000,000 (that is just short of a BILLION with a big B) were minted. Again I ask, WHERE DID THEY ALL GO?

 

If you added up all the clad quarters minted up to that time, there were already 14,500,000,000 (that's 14.5 Billion) in circulation. IF they were all put back into circulation why can't we find them? I rarely see a 1982 in ANY grade but I have no problem finding any date other than the 82 or 83, and the only reason I can think of is that since the mint didn't release mint sets for those two years, the general public thought they would somehow be rare. I remember customers walking into the coin shop I moonlighted at in the mid 1980's asking for them in quantity to put away for the future. Many spoke of them getting them though retirement.

 

They DID buy them in quantity and they DID put them away- it is just too much of a stretch to believe they ALL dumped them into circulation when they had such grand plans for the future.

 

Again, I submit, there were too many people hoarding them to believe they all decided in unison some time between the time they purchased them until 1985 when it is claimed in this thread that they all dumped their coveted treasure back into circulation. Speculation abounds but reality dictates- those coins were not spent or we'd see them as often as any other date from that era- it was NOT a small mintage, it was a large one. They didn't get melted. They didn't leave the planet. They didn't all grow legs and march to the bottom of the sea.

 

With all respect, they HAVE to be somewhere, so where do you think they are?

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I agree with you that the scarcity of my series does and will reduce interest because to most, there is little point in attempting to collect it when there is little or nothing to buy.

 

 

a little off topic but had to interject- I collect early half eagles and there are about 40 issues that have less than 100 known to survive commerce and the ills of time. The ONLY reason I collect them is because most other series are just too easy to find and I like a good challenge. While I'm sure it is easier to find some of these half eagles than some of your scarce issues, the point of my post is that it is the very challenge of completing a massive set like half eagles with so many true and proven rarities that drives some of us in the hobby. There are a million motives in collecting coins and I have heard many other advanced collectors say the same thing- they left Lincolns and Morgans behind grudgingly simply because it is too easy to find them all. Try to find a AU 1846-C, 1864 or 1876 half eagle some time and you'll understand the thrill of the hunt is a great motivator. I have found all but 14 coins in a set of over 200. That's a challenge that may last the rest of my life. My goal is to own every one of them except the 1854-S but that pesky 1875 might take my dying breath. Wish me luck and happy collecting no matter what floats your boat!

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Thank you very much for the link. The first coin is only chBU. It has a very poor strike especially in LIBERTY as is common for this date. It also has significant marking.

 

The second two coins are actually pretty nice. I'd call them "gemmy" or near-Gem. They are nice and clean and have 95% full strikes. I've got a couple rolls of similar quality.

 

I am curious as to whether Redbook has as much influence on sell prices as you imply. I have never even held one in my hands.

 

Yes. I think Redbook is just a disaster for modern coins. Krause pulls the same garbage. They grossly understate the prices which simply stops most newbies dead in their tracks. The first thing newbies to every forum are advised is to buy a Redbook. I'm not going to let this slide any longer. Everytime someone says to buy a Redbook or consult one of Krause's lists I'm going to point out that they inflate the prices of classics by 50% and understate the value of moderns by a factor of up to 50. They list coins for as little as 2% FMV.

 

I believe that were it not for TPG's and price guides moderns would have taken off long ago. The damage done by the services was unintentional, inadvertant and is not on-going (for the main part). The damage done by Redbook appears to be wholly intentional and is on-going. This affects all moderns since they don't even list them in the grades they are most widely collected. They can tweak classic prices every year but they use the same obsolete and irrelevant pricing for many moderns year after year.

 

Do the auction results in the link above accurately reflect the Redbook price for an MS-67?

 

Redbook doesn't list prices above MS-65. The coins in the above link going for as much as $600 are not as good as MS-65 if you care about strike. They list an MS-65 for $15.

 

The reality is about 70% of the 80,000 Unc 1982-P's in existence are only MS-60 and most are very unattractive. Most of the rest are not as nice as chBU. Only 3-4% are gemmy. There may not exist a true Gem; clean with a full (99%) strike from good dies. (or mebbe there's one. ;) )

 

This is the reality. There is nothing common about this date. Many clad are very very tough in nice condition because nobody cared back in the early days. They'd set aside errors and varieties and never bothered to set aside even typical coins, much less Gems. Were it not for mint sets this would be painfully obvious for every single date. But the few remaining mint sets have lots of very choice examples for every date that appears in mint sets.

 

Reality? 980,000,000 quarters minted in 1982 and your reality is that they are rare? As I said, I worked in a coin shop, Saturdays too in fact, so I got a good feel for what the collecting public wanted, and they did collect clads. As serious collectors you and I (and most reading this here) try to find the very best example possible to fill every hole, so obviously many of our customers were looking for the nicest gems they could find. We had no problem finding them even into 1986 when I finally had to quit that job due to other responsibilities and they were still selling well so I am just having a hard time reconciling what you say to the reality I lived. Also, we bought rolls and small hoards and our experience was much better than yours- one in ten was a nice gem, regardless of the strike, which I agree wasn't strong, but then again, many issue of the era were that way, so again, why would they not be out there in quantity? Skills like reason and logic were what the Navy honed in me (I was a missile tech) and I have applied them to everything I've done in life because that is what is required to come up with the correct answer every time. If you substitute opinions and suppositions for logic and reason when sitting dead in the water during a battle, well, I think you know what the outcome would be. One should NEVER suppose or opine on anything unless that supposition and opinion is backed up by logic and reason, and there is no way you can convince me, knowing what I know, that you've done so- I see a whole lot of wild guesses but nothing to back them up or explain how you got to those conclusions. In the real world, we make a claim and then back it up with evidence that we can PROVE. With all respect sir, you haven't done that here.

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My wife works in a post office in the middle of nowhere, literally, way out in the country. Last year she brought home a nice BU 1982 quarter, very close to gem.

 

It's far more likely that this coin was part of a hoard that came from circulation in 1985 when Numismatic News started running stories about the scarcity of this issue. I believe the first of these stories began in May, 1985. For this reason there are very large numbers of AU's and sliders and sometimes dealers don't know this coin has a real premium even in AU and they tell heirs to spend them.

 

There were no Unc rolls set aside so the chance it came from such a roll are extremely low.

 

The first thousand coins from a die likely were nice strong gems before the dies began to take the pressure.

 

No. New die strikes are not always Gem because dies can be badly made, they can be misaligned, and they can be at too low pressure. The '82-P dies were pretty good with about 95% well made. But, only about 50% were aligned well and about 25% set at sufficient pressure. Only about 10% of the dies ever strucka Gem and then these would appear as late as the 5,000th strike if the dies were still good. This means about 3,500,000 Gems came off the dies. Of these about 500,000 were still Gem when they left the mint and arrived at the local bank. Collectors intercepted about .0002% of the mintage so allelse being equal there might be ~100. But all else is not equal. Somehow the nicest examples escaped everybody except me, Numismatic News promotion sets, and the CA flat pack set. Sampling suggests as many as ten or twenty in the NN sets and a "few" in the CA set. I got one nice one from the bag mentioned earlier and acquired three or four since in all my sampling.

 

Neither of us thought they would ever be rare or valuable, but we KNOW they are out there in huge quantities, preserved as minted.

 

You know wrong. Nice gemmy MS-64 coins wouldn't sell for $600 if there were huge quantities available. The ONLY reason that these rolls sell so cheap is that they are bloddy awful. The rolls wholesale for more than $200 and they'd be far higher except everyone knows that they are terrible. If you were right they wouldn't wholesale for $200.

 

Neither of us can say with certainty that any of them are gems, but my bet is 1 in a thousand is, and there are likely millions still hiding in sock drawers, shoe boxes and the like all over America, just waiting for the owners to pass away and their heirs to find them.

 

Look at the coins in circulation. Their grade range is very narrow and only between VF- and XF-. There are outliers for the reason mentioned earlier. This PROVES you're wrong. There'd be lots of nicer coins in circulation if you were right just like the '76 quarter.

 

 

The average collector would not waste the time or money on an overpriced common modern coin just because there aren't many graded yet- most would rather own a classic key date for five hundred dollars. As for telling us we're wrong- what hard proof have you shown to back your position? Nothing. Supposition is not proof, educated guesses are still just guesses. Unless you can track where every coin went after minting and prove it was put back into circulation, you can't prove anything. As for your assertion that the average coin in circulation is VF or Xf- well, for a coin that is 35 years old, I guess that proves what I said- the coins are so hard that they easily last thirty to forty years, so if they all got put back into circulation by the mid 1980's as you claim, why don't we see them as often as any other contemproray date in circulation??? The evidence is NOT there to prove your main point. And average grade in circulation has absolutely nothing to do with average grade in a million small hoards across America. Like I said, it takes a lifetime for many collections and hoards to hit the market. Most people who put away bags and rolls of 1982 and 1983 quarters have not passed away yet so we'll have to wait another ten to twenty years to see them come back out of their hiding places, but I am confident enough to place a wager if you're so inclined. I have never had a problem putting my money where my mouth is. And IF I die before it happens, you can have the wager to buy more 1982 rarities. Name your wager...

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"What you ignore most is the fact that most people collecting clads put them in folders long ago and forgot about them- who would waste their money to slab such common coins?"

 

 

 

I am not supporting any speculation presented on this issue. It could go either way. There are too many unknowns to believe otherwise. Only time will tell.

 

However, I will contribute to the speculation.

 

 

 

I would think that at $500 for an MS-67 and over a $1,000 for a 1982 P quarter, more of these coins, at these grades and prices, would be slabbed. People would be searching through their rolls of coins or folders, and, upon finding these gems, many would either have them slabbed for selling or for preservation. Those who believed there were more out there in quantity would sell while the selling was good. Those who believed there were only a few out there would wait until the price was right. But, either way, many would likely be slabbed.

 

If there are a lot of people hording a million or more of these coins - and all would not be casual collectors - at least a few hundred of these individuals would follow auction results and trends in the market.

 

Another of your famous suppositions, but with no supporting evidence.

 

Again, most hoarders did not 'collect' these quarters, they were just average people with little numismatic interest or knowledge speculating on an issue that they could buy at near face value because they thought they would be rare since the Mint didn't produce mint sets that year. It may have been a wrong-headed suppostion on their part, but after they put them away for safe keeping most did what most hoarders do- forgot about them. That is why I say we have to wait for their heirs to find them and bring them back to us as their parents die off. I know no one who put stuff like this away who bothers to watch anything since thier goal was to save them for retirement.

 

What is for sure is that they were made in huge quanties (a billion is a LOT) and they are NOT in circulation is such quantities, so if they aren't in circulation in the same proportions as other dates that age, and if they aren't being melted by the hundreds of millions, then they MUST still be with us, SOMEWHERE.

 

If they were all spent by the mid-1980's as you presume, why do we not see as many of this date as, say, a 1971, 72 or 77, all of which have much lower mintages??? It's because they were NOT spent, they are still in hoards all over the country. If you look closely at your pretzel logic, you'll see that it defies every reality I have mentioned throughout this thread.

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It's not my responsibility to know what makes a hothead tic. We had been having a very friendly conversation.

 

I'm not sure what this refers to- I do not recall making anything personal, perhaps you should take a few deep breaths and realize that although you are entitled to believe the moon is made of cream cheese, the rest of us are not obligated in any way to go along with what we believe to be nothing but unfounded and ungrounded speculation. As a serious collector of truly rare coins that can be proved to be rare, this is alien to me so please forgive me if you can't convince me to drink the koolaid. Nothing that I write was or will ever be meant to be taken personally so please don't read anything into what I post. A debate is not a duel, sometimes there is no clear winner or loser until more proof presents itself. I simply think that there hasn't been sufficient time to come to a logical conclusion. You can think what you want, it doesn't offend me in the least. Good luck with them my friend...

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"I'm not laughing at you and hope you'll see the irony in your post- you start out by saying you won't support the speculation but end up supporting it with speculation anyway."

 

 

 

I contributed to the speculation. Speculation you side-stepped.

 

 

 

"I know you warned us but come on- how can anyone say with a straight face that EVERY 1982 quarter that wasn't in pliofilm was eventually spent...."

 

 

I did not say they were. I was referencing high grade 1982 P coins.

 

 

"With all respect, they HAVE to be somewhere, so where do you think they are?"

 

 

Circulated coins are out there in large numbers but are of no consequence. If high grade examples exist in abundance and they are worth good money - why are they not being slabbed in proportionate numbers for preservation or sale?

 

I am just asking. I am not saying you are right or wrong or they are right or wrong or I am right or wrong.

 

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"I'm not laughing at you and hope you'll see the irony in your post- you start out by saying you won't support the speculation but end up supporting it with speculation anyway."

 

 

 

I contributed to the speculation. Speculation you side-stepped.

 

 

 

"I know you warned us but come on- how can anyone say with a straight face that EVERY 1982 quarter that wasn't in pliofilm was eventually spent...."

 

 

I did not say they were. I was referencing high grade 1982 P coins.

 

 

"With all respect, they HAVE to be somewhere, so where do you think they are?"

 

 

Circulated coins are out there in large numbers but are of no consequence. If high grade examples exist in abundance and they are worth good money - why are they not being slabbed in proportionate numbers for preservation or sale?

 

I am just asking. I am not saying you are right or wrong or they are right or wrong or I am right or wrong.

 

I sidestepped nothing. I took every point you made and showed you why I didn't think it was relevent. And yes sir, the circulated ones ARE of consequence- they are what is left of a BILLION coin issue and as such, should represent the issue in the exact same proportions as any other contemporary date, yet you sidestepped that point. If you want to be biased, that's fine, be biased, but you don;t get to tell us what data or evidence we can look at and what we can count.

 

The FACT remains that 980 million of this date were minted and put into circulation via the federal reserve system just alike every other issue of it's time, yet all other dates of that time can be found in huge quanties, but the 1982 isse can not. Again I ask you to explain this anomaly if they were all put back into circulation as you claimed. The numbers don't support your suppositions, so therefore I say that most of the mintage was hoarded and won't see the light of day until those hoarders sell them, or their heirs decide what to do with them.

 

If you can somehow explain why we can't find the bulk of a 980 million coin mintage when all other similar mintages are easy to accumulate in large quantities I will be inclined to take your assertions more seriously, but until then, this date is going to remain rather common in my mind, all the way through the grade range.

 

To answer your last question, AGAIN, it is because the hoarders were not active collectors and have no idea the potential gold mine they are now sitting on- they are not active in the hobby and not paying attention. When they do, we'll see them come out in huge numbers as reality would dictate. Like I said, promote the series and make some $$$ while you do so, then we'll find the missing gems...

 

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Wow!

 

Indeed!

 

I'm gonna try one more time.

 

The Philly mintage was 500 million. Almost every single one on the day they were made was unattractive. In those days people didn't collect clad quarters at all and the handful of people who did weren't extremely concerned about quality as long as they had a piece that looked fully Unc. More than half the mintage fit this category. This accounts for only a few thousand coins though because few collected clad quarters. The rest of the '82-P's that got saved were "inadvertant". The mint made 10,000 souvenir sets but many of these were sold to tourists who didn't care for them so many no longer survive. In these 10,000 sets there were no Gems and no coins close to Gem. There are only a couple die runs and neither is any good. Numismatic News put together a bunch of sets for subscribers. There are some very nice coins in these sets and odds are most of the coins graded high are from these sets. I'd guess no more than 10 or 20 true Gems are in them and probably fewer but I've not seen enough of the sets to be certain. There are lots of very choice coins in them. I'd guess the mintage at around 12,000 and this includes as many as 1,000 nice gemmy coins. Paul & Judy made about 8,000 sets. These are nice sets but I doubt there are Gems, but there are lots of nice chBU's and a few gemmy coins. A bag was saved on the east coast according to NN. There are a few stray roll around and a few low production mint sets (incl the CA flat pack).

 

That's it. If you think there are more then it's on your shoulders to show it. The coins in circulation are still there except for the 120 million that have been destroyed by fire and flood. There are no "missing" coins. They're all accounted for.

 

There's a rumor a pallet was found in 1985 at the KC FED but this is highly improbable because a pallet would necessarily have at least a couple hundred Gems and they aren't available. Also there should be no Philly paallet that far west ofd the Mississippi. Additionally the entire mintage had been released to circulation by the end of 1984. The rumor is false.

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Wow!

 

Indeed!

 

I'm gonna try one more time.

 

The Philly mintage was 500 million. Almost every single one on the day they were made was unattractive. In those days people didn't collect clad quarters at all and the handful of people who did weren't extremely concerned about quality as long as they had a piece that looked fully Unc. More than half the mintage fit this category. This accounts for only a few thousand coins though because few collected clad quarters. The rest of the '82-P's that got saved were "inadvertant". The mint made 10,000 souvenir sets but many of these were sold to tourists who didn't care for them so many no longer survive. In these 10,000 sets there were no Gems and no coins close to Gem. There are only a couple die runs and neither is any good. Numismatic News put together a bunch of sets for subscribers. There are some very nice coins in these sets and odds are most of the coins graded high are from these sets. I'd guess no more than 10 or 20 true Gems are in them and probably fewer but I've not seen enough of the sets to be certain. There are lots of very choice coins in them. I'd guess the mintage at around 12,000 and this includes as many as 1,000 nice gemmy coins. Paul & Judy made about 8,000 sets. These are nice sets but I doubt there are Gems, but there are lots of nice chBU's and a few gemmy coins. A bag was saved on the east coast according to NN. There are a few stray roll around and a few low production mint sets (incl the CA flat pack).

 

That's it. If you think there are more then it's on your shoulders to show it. The coins in circulation are still there except for the 120 million that have been destroyed by fire and flood. There are no "missing" coins. They're all accounted for.

 

There's a rumor a pallet was found in 1985 at the KC FED but this is highly improbable because a pallet would necessarily have at least a couple hundred Gems and they aren't available. Also there should be no Philly paallet that far west ofd the Mississippi. Additionally the entire mintage had been released to circulation by the end of 1984. The rumor is false.

 

The real error in your thinking is believing that every person who ever found a quantity of these would magically know that they are presently rare in upper grades and should have had them graded. Well I'm here to tell you that not only do MOST people not know how hard it is to find a gem piece, but they don't even know what a gem is! And further, most of them don't know what a grading service or a slab is any more than most people know that currency or comic books are now encapsulated or entombed with an opinion of grade. Why would they? There are very few knowledgeable coin collectors in this country, and that can be proved by looking at the circulation statements of the numismatic publications. All together I doubt they add up to a few hundred thousand per month and many of them are from my generation and find the idea of investing in copper nickel slugs made by the hundreds of millions per year, well, wastefull and foolish. That's just my opinion son, no need to get worked up over it. I just worked way too hard in my life to spend my money on something as uninteresting as ugly clad Washington quarters just because someone *thinks* they might be rare. If this was 2050 I might look at the numbers and agree with you, but it is only 34 years after minting and the jury is out until this particular group of hoarders pass away and their heirs sell off their possessions. To believe otherwise is to ignore what we DO know...

 

And I'm going to say again that IF there were 500 million coins made, it SHOULD be as available in circulation as any other date with the same or lesser mintage, yet it doesn't. How do you explain this? It is really that simple- either the coins would have entered circulation like any other date and be available in the same proportions, or a good portion of that 500 million remained in the possession of hoarders and won't see the light of day until they put them back out there. What is it that you don't understand about this obvious contradiction?

 

You accused me of sidestepping something along the way although you didn't elaborate on what, but here I am still asking you to explain this huge anomaly and you still ignore my question. Is it possible that addressing this sticking point will expose the error in your thinking and you just don't want to admit it? Inquiring minds want to know what you think about this little problem...

 

 

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And please stop telling us that just because you looked through ten thousand of this date so far that you can say definitively that they were indicative of the entire mintage, utilizing thousands of dies and different mint workers operating the presses. Supposition, opinion and self serving statements don't a rare coin make...

 

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Oh, my, I must have missed that part about, and I'll quote you literally cladking: "That's it. If you think there are more then it's on your shoulders to show it. The coins in circulation are still there except for the 120 million that have been destroyed by fire and flood. There are no "missing" coins. They're all accounted for."

 

Oh, are they? Then why don't we see the same proportions of this huge mintage in circulation today? I find 1970, 1971, 1972's all the time but never see a 1982 and rarely see a 1983. It is not just a coincidence that they aren't in circulation- people who didn't know any better thought they would be rare because the mint stopped making mint sets in these two years so rumor spread that these would be valueable and rare and they were hoarded. IF these same people later all mysteriously agreed that they were wrong and put them back into circulation, we would see them just as regularly as any other date from that era, but we do not.

 

And how did you come to the figure of 120 million destroyed by flood and fire??? Do you have documentation of this that you can show us? I'm interested in knowing how forty million dollars face in quarters got lost or destroyed, that is a whole lot of quarters! And last time I checked, these things don't melt easily, so how would flood destroy them? And what fire exactly took out so many 1982's??? Wow is right my friend, I was a sailor for 11 years and I don't remember hearing a taller tale. Please explain these things to us, I'm very confused on how you come to these outrageous figures- that would be 24% of the entire mintage of 1982-P quarters!

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"Well I'm here to tell you that not only do MOST people not know how hard it is to find a gem piece, but they don't even know what a gem is! And further, most of them don't know what a grading service or a slab is any more than most people know that currency or comic books are now encapsulated or entombed with an opinion of grade."

 

 

You are right, huge numbers of people like you describe above had every reason in the world to buy rolls of these coins and then forget all about them. And, conversely, why would collectors who know something about coins even consider doing such a thing?

 

Makes perfect sense to me. You win. Your logic is flawless.

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Skills like reason and logic were what the Navy honed in me (I was a missile tech) and I have applied them to everything I've done in life because that is what is required to come up with the correct answer every time. If you substitute opinions and suppositions for logic and reason when sitting dead in the water during a battle, well, I think you know what the outcome would be. One should NEVER suppose or opine on anything unless that supposition and opinion is backed up by logic and reason,...

 

I have no doubt at all that you're a reasonable, intelligent,and knowledgeable man. But I also have no doubt that your memory on this subject is flawed in some way. Perhaps you're remembering pennies or something, I sure don't know, but I know that there was no numismatic or other interest in quarters in 1982. It's even possible that you lived in a little cluster of interest but there were no offers to buy or sell these coins in the numismatic press. Julian Jarvis in Greencastle Indiana distributed at least a bag and perhaps a little more through about 1985. He ran weekly ads for many years. I think it was Arlan Kramer in Pennsylvania who also ran ads from time to time but I don't recall him selling this date. I did see a few of the privately produced sets for sale in my travels and always poked through them, but there were no ads that I can recall in the numismatic press to sell them.

 

Clads were way under the radar.

 

As I mentioned there weren't even folders in production for clads at that time.

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Oh, are they? Then why don't we see the same proportions of this huge mintage in circulation today? I find 1970, 1971, 1972's all the time but never see a 1982 and rarely see a 1983.

 

The same proportions of the older coins are missing. The US Mint says clads last only thirty years so exactly how many 34 year old coins do you expect to see in circulation? The answer is simple; the mint estimate is wrong and life expectancy is a little higher; 35 years. More than half of the 1966 quarters are gone now. They haven't really just worn away but as they get thinner and lighter they are more likely to suffer misadventure. After 50 years right around 51% are gone now. This is a little higher than 1965 because the 65's weren't all released until 1975. In those days the FED didn't rotate their stocks.

 

The 1982 appears at just about exactly the right frequency though it might be dropping slightly now because of all the interest in it. There are rolls of VF coins on eBay. About 40% of the 1972's are gone. The older the date the lower the grade and the fewer that survive. This is why they have to make billions every year; the coins are used up and lost.

 

Floods are hard on coins for many many reasons. Floods are destructive and wash things away. Floods are wet and permeate safes and change jars. Cleanup from floods often involve bulldozers. Attrition on clads is very high and it's even high on the few pieces that collectors set aside. It's high because people don't realize the coins are scarce. They end up in coin dealers' cash registers or taken to the bank. If an 1804 dollar is lost or stolen it's not going to end up at Walmart but if a Gem 1982-P quarter is mislaid or falls in the wrong hands it probably will go into circulation. Your distaste for moderns is very very common but this is exactly the reason that many of them are rare.

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"Well I'm here to tell you that not only do MOST people not know how hard it is to find a gem piece, but they don't even know what a gem is! And further, most of them don't know what a grading service or a slab is any more than most people know that currency or comic books are now encapsulated or entombed with an opinion of grade."

 

 

You are right, huge numbers of people like you describe above had every reason in the world to buy rolls of these coins and then forget all about them. And, conversely, why would collectors who know something about coins even consider doing such a thing?

 

Makes perfect sense to me. You win. Your logic is flawless.

 

exactly- why would non-collectors bother when there are no headlines for 34 years in the daily press about 'rare' 1982 quarters? How many hoarders put a ten or a hundred bags of silver dollars away and didn't touch them before they died? How many hoards of BU early coppers have been found, how many hoards of gold coins? Those are worth vastly more than bags of clad quarters and they still went to their graves ignoring them! Do you ever consider reality? The average hoarder hasn't clue what he has, he buys based on rumor that he can get rich. A lifetime later he still hasn't heard anything new so obviously he forgets, what would remind him that he put a few rolls away 35 years ago if there's no news to alert him that he finally made it to his goal of getting rich? And if you're so sure they are worth that much, advertise to buy BU rolls and see what you get. I hear a lot of opinions ans suppositions from you but that's about it- you don't even try to prove what you claim, like the 'fact' that you added yesterday that 120 million 1982 quarters were lost to fire and flood! Yeah, right.

 

And How many 'collectors' do you know who have as much passion for these as you do? I'll bet you could count them on the fingers of one hand. SHALLOW MARKET, that is the best explanation for why your common coins aren't worth much- do you honestly think that you know better than a hundred thousand active collectors? My logic is sound- you haven't been able to put a dent in it. I have been an active collector for fifty one years and have NEVER met a person as hard-nosed as you on the subject of something so common.

 

Sure, you won't find many MS70's in circulation, but you have only seen 10,000 of them! So from what few you saw, you can say for sure that the other 500,921,000 (that's five hundredd million, nine hundred and twenty one thousand!) won't produce any gems?! That is a BOLD statement! I'd like to see some facts to back it, but judging by how many times I've asked you to back up your assertions with facts and not getting a response, I guess we can count on more of the same silence.

 

Again, where did they go if they haven't been hoarded???

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Oh, are they? Then why don't we see the same proportions of this huge mintage in circulation today? I find 1970, 1971, 1972's all the time but never see a 1982 and rarely see a 1983.

 

The same proportions of the older coins are missing. The US Mint says clads last only thirty years so exactly how many 34 year old coins do you expect to see in circulation? The answer is simple; the mint estimate is wrong and life expectancy is a little higher; 35 years. More than half of the 1966 quarters are gone now. They haven't really just worn away but as they get thinner and lighter they are more likely to suffer misadventure. After 50 years right around 51% are gone now. This is a little higher than 1965 because the 65's weren't all released until 1975. In those days the FED didn't rotate their stocks.

 

The 1982 appears at just about exactly the right frequency though it might be dropping slightly now because of all the interest in it. There are rolls of VF coins on eBay. About 40% of the 1972's are gone. The older the date the lower the grade and the fewer that survive. This is why they have to make billions every year; the coins are used up and lost.

 

Floods are hard on coins for many many reasons. Floods are destructive and wash things away. Floods are wet and permeate safes and change jars. Cleanup from floods often involve bulldozers. Attrition on clads is very high and it's even high on the few pieces that collectors set aside. It's high because people don't realize the coins are scarce. They end up in coin dealers' cash registers or taken to the bank. If an 1804 dollar is lost or stolen it's not going to end up at Walmart but if a Gem 1982-P quarter is mislaid or falls in the wrong hands it probably will go into circulation. Your distaste for moderns is very very common but this is exactly the reason that many of them are rare.

 

I'm lost- how could your experiences be so much different than mine? How old are you anyway? Were you actually alive in the 80's?

 

I'll state this clearly so I don't have to again- I have no distaste for moderns- I think some have artistic merit and are very collectible, and the rest fill out some nice sets if one is so inclined to spend the money to own coins they may not really like just to complete a set. What I find distasteful is a person so hell bent on proving his point but proceeds to do so with no fats or evidence, just supposition after suppostition.

 

Floods do not waste a 24% of ANY mintage. Show me the proof that ANY have been lost in great quantity to flooding or fire or stop propagating such nonsense. You're reaching for any straw and you're beginning to sound silly. Further, I went through a change jar last night and guess what I found? Lots of 1980's quarters, but no 1982 or 1983. I also found a lot of gem BU dimes and quarters that would EASILY grade MS68 or 69, mark free and perfect surfaces, many with strong strikes. Some were even earlier dates, 1974 being a common date in high grade to this day! There is a reason you can find gem BU clads in circulation- they are made of the hardest material we ever made a coin from and they hold up to wear and tear well for a long time after entering circulation, so I suggest that the fines and VFs that you claim are the only 1982's to be found in circulation is because not many re-entered circulation in the 80's as you claim- if they did, they would still be there. So to believe that a clad coin only grades XF or AU after entering circulation is another silly notion that was easily be disproved. Some of these coins were from the 1990's and no, not state quarters that are still being spent after years of hoping that they would be rare and valueable. So if I can find nice old gem clads in circulation, 1982 coins being in circulation should have nothing to with the condition they are in when plucked out by collectors- they should be out there just like any others, but they aren't, so they obviously must still be in a million small hoards across the country- where else could 500 million coins be if not in circulation?

 

Your ideas are unrealistic and don't fit the real world or human nature, and you ignore history when it should be one of your greatest guides. And what does a 1804 dollar have to do with clads anyway??? Wow, I feel like I'm talking to a wall...

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"Well I'm here to tell you that not only do MOST people not know how hard it is to find a gem piece, but they don't even know what a gem is! And further, most of them don't know what a grading service or a slab is any more than most people know that currency or comic books are now encapsulated or entombed with an opinion of grade."

 

 

You are right, huge numbers of people like you describe above had every reason in the world to buy rolls of these coins and then forget all about them. And, conversely, why would collectors who know something about coins even consider doing such a thing?

 

Makes perfect sense to me. You win. Your logic is flawless.

 

exactly- why would non-collectors bother when there are no headlines for 34 years in the daily press about 'rare' 1982 quarters? How many hoarders put a ten or a hundred bags of silver dollars away and didn't touch them before they died? How many hoards of BU early coppers have been found, how many hoards of gold coins? Those are worth vastly more than bags of clad quarters and they still went to their graves ignoring them! Do you ever consider reality? The average hoarder hasn't clue what he has, he buys based on rumor that he can get rich. A lifetime later he still hasn't heard anything new so obviously he forgets, what would remind him that he put a few rolls away 35 years ago if there's no news to alert him that he finally made it to his goal of getting rich? And if you're so sure they are worth that much, advertise to buy BU rolls and see what you get. I hear a lot of opinions ans suppositions from you but that's about it- you don't even try to prove what you claim, like the 'fact' that you added yesterday that 120 million 1982 quarters were lost to fire and flood! Yeah, right.

 

And How many 'collectors' do you know who have as much passion for these as you do? I'll bet you could count them on the fingers of one hand. SHALLOW MARKET, that is the best explanation for why your common coins aren't worth much- do you honestly think that you know better than a hundred thousand active collectors? My logic is sound- you haven't been able to put a dent in it. I have been an active collector for fifty one years and have NEVER met a person as hard-nosed as you on the subject of something so common.

 

Sure, you won't find many MS70's in circulation, but you have only seen 10,000 of them! So from what few you saw, you can say for sure that the other 500,921,000 (that's five hundredd million, nine hundred and twenty one thousand!) won't produce any gems?! That is a BOLD statement! I'd like to see some facts to back it, but judging by how many times I've asked you to back up your assertions with facts and not getting a response, I guess we can count on more of the same silence.

 

Again, where did they go if they haven't been hoarded???

 

 

 

 

You get confused easily. Are you sure I said these things?

 

At any rate, you are unwilling to see passed your dedication for being right, so I will leave you to it.

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Skills like reason and logic were what the Navy honed in me (I was a missile tech) and I have applied them to everything I've done in life because that is what is required to come up with the correct answer every time. If you substitute opinions and suppositions for logic and reason when sitting dead in the water during a battle, well, I think you know what the outcome would be. One should NEVER suppose or opine on anything unless that supposition and opinion is backed up by logic and reason,...

 

I have no doubt at all that you're a reasonable, intelligent,and knowledgeable man. But I also have no doubt that your memory on this subject is flawed in some way. Perhaps you're remembering pennies or something, I sure don't know, but I know that there was no numismatic or other interest in quarters in 1982. It's even possible that you lived in a little cluster of interest but there were no offers to buy or sell these coins in the numismatic press. Julian Jarvis in Greencastle Indiana distributed at least a bag and perhaps a little more through about 1985. He ran weekly ads for many years. I think it was Arlan Kramer in Pennsylvania who also ran ads from time to time but I don't recall him selling this date. I did see a few of the privately produced sets for sale in my travels and always poked through them, but there were no ads that I can recall in the numismatic press to sell them.

 

Clads were way under the radar.

 

As I mentioned there weren't even folders in production for clads at that time.

 

well, let's see- I broke my leg at 11 months of age and remember doing it. I remember learning to walk again after it healed. I remember my entire childhood and I remember almost every person I ever met. I remember every important coin I ever owned. I remember every country I ever visited and the conversations with the people I met there. I remember shipmates that I met in the Navy and I have been out since 1991. I even remembered everything I learned in my equipment pubs and schematics in my Navy training, so well that when I took my final performance test on the massive (component wise) missile radar system I trained on for the Navy, I remembered them to the point that I didn't open them during the test, saving me precious minutes in finding the problems and correcting them in record time. The instructor told me no one had ever attempted that and had bet me beforehand that I wouldn't ace the test. I didn't- he was so disappointed at losing his bet that he hit me for five points for not opening the pubs, but I did remember them and I did find all the problems so I think that demonstrates the capacity and accuracy of my memory.

 

I told you I worked behind the counter in the coin shop I mentioned- I am absolutely certain that BU quarters were collected as much as any other series, clads and silvers alike. And why would you think I'd confuse large quarters with tiny cents of a different color? It would take a insufficiently_thoughtful_person to make a mistake like that. As for advertisements for clads- advertising space is very expensive so why would mainstream dealers waste much space on these when they had plenty of important and much more profitable coins to sell? I'll bet you never owned and operated a business in your life either or you might have considered that.

 

And one more point that I'd like to dispell- Whitman and others made lots of different folders and if you had done a little research before making such an unfounded claim you'd have found that they did indeed have folders and albums to accomodate clads in the early 1980's. Do you EVER try to prove to yourself what you claim before you go public with it? When you prove or at least try to back your opinions with proveable facts, we'll believe them, I promise...

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by the way cladking- you asked why someone with rolls or bags of 1982 quarters would ignore the market price increasing for 1982 quarters and not sell. I knew a dealer from my teen years who showed me his hoard of several hundred 1884-S choice BU Morgans. Look them up- they have gone up in value exponentially since the 1970's, yet he died with that hoard. Why would he not have sold them into the market if what you say is true of collectors, hoarders or dealers? I'll tell you why- because you are wrong for thinking that everyomne else would think or act like you in such a situation. Stop thinking about how you might act in a particular situation and start accepting that humans do things for different reasons and some of them just don't think like you. The coins are still out there. Time is the only thing that will bring them out. They are NOT 1804 dollars and NONE ONE knows that gem 1982 quarters are presently scarce. But no logically thinking person that I have ever been associated with would blindly believe that more wouldn't come out of the woodwork when there were 500 million made and many were taken out of circulation at the time of issue. To me, it takes a fool to pick one outcome over another with so little evidece that he was right. Again, time will tell the rest of this story.

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"Well I'm here to tell you that not only do MOST people not know how hard it is to find a gem piece, but they don't even know what a gem is! And further, most of them don't know what a grading service or a slab is any more than most people know that currency or comic books are now encapsulated or entombed with an opinion of grade."

 

 

You are right, huge numbers of people like you describe above had every reason in the world to buy rolls of these coins and then forget all about them. And, conversely, why would collectors who know something about coins even consider doing such a thing?

 

Makes perfect sense to me. You win. Your logic is flawless.

 

exactly- why would non-collectors bother when there are no headlines for 34 years in the daily press about 'rare' 1982 quarters? How many hoarders put a ten or a hundred bags of silver dollars away and didn't touch them before they died? How many hoards of BU early coppers have been found, how many hoards of gold coins? Those are worth vastly more than bags of clad quarters and they still went to their graves ignoring them! Do you ever consider reality? The average hoarder hasn't clue what he has, he buys based on rumor that he can get rich. A lifetime later he still hasn't heard anything new so obviously he forgets, what would remind him that he put a few rolls away 35 years ago if there's no news to alert him that he finally made it to his goal of getting rich? And if you're so sure they are worth that much, advertise to buy BU rolls and see what you get. I hear a lot of opinions ans suppositions from you but that's about it- you don't even try to prove what you claim, like the 'fact' that you added yesterday that 120 million 1982 quarters were lost to fire and flood! Yeah, right.

 

And How many 'collectors' do you know who have as much passion for these as you do? I'll bet you could count them on the fingers of one hand. SHALLOW MARKET, that is the best explanation for why your common coins aren't worth much- do you honestly think that you know better than a hundred thousand active collectors? My logic is sound- you haven't been able to put a dent in it. I have been an active collector for fifty one years and have NEVER met a person as hard-nosed as you on the subject of something so common.

 

Sure, you won't find many MS70's in circulation, but you have only seen 10,000 of them! So from what few you saw, you can say for sure that the other 500,921,000 (that's five hundredd million, nine hundred and twenty one thousand!) won't produce any gems?! That is a BOLD statement! I'd like to see some facts to back it, but judging by how many times I've asked you to back up your assertions with facts and not getting a response, I guess we can count on more of the same silence.

 

Again, where did they go if they haven't been hoarded???

 

 

 

 

You get confused easily. Are you sure I said these things?

 

At any rate, you are unwilling to see passed your dedication for being right, so I will leave you to it.

 

I do not get confused easily, but it can be difficult to follow a thread that has more quotes than the Congressional Record. And no sir, please forgive me- you didn't say them, cladking did, and I stand corrected.

 

But you do have one thing wrong- I don't feel a need to be right, but as a life long professional trouble shooter and problem solver, I do feel a need to point out the facts and follow them to their logical conclusion and to force others to admit when they tell a tale that can't be backed up. I have rarely been wrong in my life when trying to solve a problem simply because it's my nature to be sure BEFORE I act or speak. If I have stated anything that you know you can prove to be wrong, please point it out. I'm a fair man and always admit when I was wrong.

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You cannot be sure. You base your belief on personal experiences, which is a very limited sampling, and form conclusions based on the same. You demand proof from others, but you only site your experiences and the conclusions you derive from them – not proof. The only thing you are sure of is your conviction.

 

You have an opinion and Cladking has an opinion, and you both have your conviction. I think the reality lies somewhere in between.

 

 

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Look them up- they have gone up in value exponentially since the 1970's, yet he died with that hoard. Why would he not have sold them into the market if what you say is true of collectors, hoarders or dealers? ...The coins are still out there. Time is the only thing that will bring them out. They are NOT 1804 dollars and NONE ONE knows that gem 1982 quarters are presently scarce.

 

Let me try one more time. I mentioned this in passing earlier but perhaps you missed it.

 

People do die and countless millions have died since 1982. So why are the heirs sitting on these coins? Did the owner leave a note telling them they'd be rich someday if they held onto them. Are these being passed down through the genenerations like genes and language? Your contention is absurd and can be laid bare by just looking at the known facts. The coins sell for hundreds of dollars each even without good strikes. This is a fact and nothing you say agrees with this fact. To believe that there are countless millions of coins despite the fact that I've surveyed and sampled these coins for 34 years flies in the face of the facts.

 

Perhaps the biggest irony here is theat John J Pittman collected moderns, especially quarters, and when he died none of the moderns were for sale. Apparently he told his family not to sell until there were realistic prices.

 

But no logically thinking person that I have ever been associated with would blindly believe that more wouldn't come out of the woodwork when there were 500 million made and many were taken out of circulation at the time of issue. To me, it takes a fool to pick one outcome over another with so little evidece that he was right. Again, time will tell the rest of this story.

 

I don't expect anyone to believe anything. I expect people to look at the facts rather than proceed on perceptions. The fact is that a Gem '82-P quarter would sell for more than $600 and you're not selling.

 

I've done the grunt work. I've seen what's available and especially what is not. I've advertised for years to buy these and didn't get a single true Gem. I've acquired several BU rolls and partial rolls since 1982 including the bag of "Gems". I even traded for a very massive lot of 1982-P quarters yanked out of circulation in 1985 after Numismatics News reported on the rarity of the coin.

 

This massive lot was quite interesting. I acquired it chiefly to acquaint myself of what was available in that area in 1985. But I also wanted to search for the type "d" reverse that I'd never seen on the '82-P. In this lot were three coins that could pass for Unc. One wasn't toobad (MS-62). The rest were about what I expected and include 5% super sliders and 10% sliders. The rest were AU and XF+. There were a couple well made coins and one was a slider. This was a huge lot of about 2,000 coins. I spent all but three of them; the MS-62 and the two wellmade coins.

 

As I said earlier, if you look at the '82-P in the sets assembled and sold in large quantities you'll see sliders, AU-58 and AU-55. You'll rarely see an uncirculated coin in the slot for '82-P.

 

You don't need to believe me but if you looked in the market I'm sure you would very very soon.

 

 

 

I'm just using this one date as a microcosm for all moderns. The fact is each and every date has its owwn characteristics, availability and demand. Many moderns are far scarcer than the classics but the demand is very low. For instance, nearly a quarter of the nickels made after 1964 are actually scarcer in nice Unc than the '50-D nickel. The later coins sell for peanuts not because they are common or high mintage but because they aren't collected and they aren't collected because so many people hate moderns. So many people hate moderns that even the price guides are inaccurate and irrelevant.

 

You asked; Next year I'll have been collecting for 60 years and my earliest memory is six months, though early memories run in my family. Some things from where I lived until three months look "familiar", but I don't remember them.

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And one more point that I'd like to dispell- Whitman and others made lots of different folders and if you had done a little research before making such an unfounded claim you'd have found that they did indeed have folders and albums to accomodate clads in the early 1980's.

 

I've tried to get info from Whitman but get no response. It appears they printed clad quarter albums in 1978 but this was a small printing and sales were abysmal. The next was, I believe 1984 but again sales were poor.

 

As I said earlier, there is still no album made for clad quarters. I believe sales would be reasonably good but they aren't made (as of two years ago). This to me is simply astounding. Order a catalog from Brooklynn Coin and Stamp or just google it. You don't actually have to wear out good shoe leather trapsing from coin store to coin store any longer. Try Whitman, Dansco, or any major supplier.

 

How many Gem '82 quarters are going to be found in the 1978 folders?

 

 

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You cannot be sure. You base your belief on personal experiences, which is a very limited sampling, and form conclusions based on the same. You demand proof from others, but you only site your experiences and the conclusions you derive from them – not proof. The only thing you are sure of is your conviction.

 

You have an opinion and Cladking has an opinion, and you both have your conviction. I think the reality lies somewhere in between.

 

 

you're right- I can't be any more sure about my conjecture than those on the other side of the debate.

 

What I can be sure of is that the coin is extremely common and that there is no reason to believe that the outcome for that mintage should be any different than for any other similar mintage for the era. What I can be sure of is that there were 500 million minted and all were released into circulation since the federal reserve would have dispersed them decades ago. What I can be sure of is that 1982 was the first year that the US Mint didn't release a mint set, and that that story did go public and that while associated with a successful coin shop in an large urban area, many non-collectors called or came in looking for these coins. What I also know is that while working in that shop, many collectors were collecting clad quarters as a continuation of silvers. What I do know for sure is that a lot of them claimed to be putting away small hoards, and I did know some people who I didn't consider collectors to have put away bags of BU coins for future dispersal. These are things that did happen.

 

All I'm trying to do is compare things that did happen with things that may have happened. If he actually saw 120 million 1982 quarters being rescued by bulldozers I'd accept his story, but that is so far-fetched that I doubt even you believed it. I really don't know why a certain person on the other side of the debate is so wrapped up in this anyway- it's his passion, not mine, so why would he expect me to agree with him? It's nothing personal. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and it's really not about that, it is only about keeping information out here, well, honest, so I called him on a few things.

 

People should be extremely cautious when someone is telling them something common is somehow *rare*. People had that wool pulled over their eyes many times in this hobby right up and until we could go online and see just how rare something was for ourselves. In this case though, since there is such shallow interest in clad quarters in any condition, the population guides show very few of them, but that doesn't a rare coin make, does it? If these coins were 100 years old, we'd have an honest picture of their rarity, since generations of collectors would have taken more and more off the market and given reason to find new supplies. Time is what proves rarity, and these aren't even older than the generation that put them away yet.

 

Reason and logic need to dictate. Passion is a good thing some times, but blind passion only gets people into trouble.

 

Debate over as fars as I'm concerned. And for the record, I do own a full set of gem Washington quarters, every clad through 1997. I don't have a 1982 or 1983, and it is because I could never find one that meets my high standards. I could have filled it in with many I have seen at shows but if they were slightly dull or weakly struck they weren't attractive enough to fit into the set and that was the only reason rejected- they were still worthy of 95% of the sets that I have seen assembled. (I did own more BU sets that included the 1982 and 1983 issues) I also spoke with enough dealers in my searches who admitted to putting away multiple rolls or bags. If they have them and you can't find a BU roll for sale, that might explain why- they see the profit in a coin per coin transaction is much greater than flooding the market with them and that makes perfect business sense to me as a retired businessman. Nothing personal to anyone out here and I have said numerous times: to each his own. All that matter is we enjoy what we do, and I see his passion for them and I can accept that and I wish him well...

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