Upgrade from 66 to 67

[BillJones]

Ridiculous!

I agree. With a mintage of 30,125 and a virtual 100% survival rate, I have never understood the price for this "rarity."

It's the MS70 and DCAM designations that make it super-rare.

 

I don't place much stock in "condition rarity" for modern coins like this. That's based on a short term opinion, and perhaps some supply manipulation by PCGS.

[GoldFinger1969]

It's the MS70 and DCAM designations that make it super-rare.

I don't place much stock in "condition rarity" for modern coins like this. That's based on a short term opinion, and perhaps some supply manipulation by PCGS.

I agree the price is insane but I see nothing that will lead to a collapse in the price going forward. It's fallen from $86,000 to $22,000 or so, mostly because the former price was a bubble spike.

 

Can it fall another 10-20% or so in the next few years and maybe fall by 30-40% in 10-20 years ? Sure, anything is possible. But I don't see this coin collapsing like those Morgan Silver Dollars which fell by 90% or more in the mid-1960's.

 

People collect ASEs and they want the 1995-W. How many thousands of buyers would pounce at the chance to buy this for $5,000 let alone a lesser amount ? Too many, IMO, which is why I think this coin will never sell below 5-figures unless a few dozen hit the market all at once from folks who had the complete set.

[numisport]

I think the fact alone that there is at least 30k '95 proof Silver Eagles available is enough to surely drop the price of Pf 70 Ultra coins. We all understand that probably 25k coins are at least Pf 69 Ultra --- so of course there will be more perfect coins graded. Maybe just the fact that there is such a large number of coins available means that the pool of collectors is also large. Compare proof Walking Liberty Half Dollars that have much smaller numbers of coins available and you find a much smaller pool of collectors. Proof 67 examples with brilliant spot and haze free surfaces are elusive but somewhat available for about 1500.00. I think these are sleepers and we will find over time to be comparable in rarity to these '95 Eagles.

[MarkFeld]

I think the fact alone that there is at least 30k '95 proof Silver Eagles available is enough to surely drop the price of Pf 70 Ultra coins. We all understand that probably 25k coins are at least Pf 69 Ultra --- so of course there will be more perfect coins graded. Maybe just the fact that there is such a large number of coins available means that the pool of collectors is also large. Compare proof Walking Liberty Half Dollars that have much smaller numbers of coins available and you find a much smaller pool of collectors. Proof 67 examples with brilliant spot and haze free surfaces are elusive but somewhat available for about 1500.00. I think these are sleepers and we will find over time to be comparable in rarity to these '95 Eagles.

 

Common date Proof Walking Liberty Half Dollars can be bought for half (or even less) of the $1500 figure you posted.

[GoldFinger1969]

I think the fact alone that there is at least 30k '95 proof Silver Eagles available is enough to surely drop the price of Pf 70 Ultra coins. We all understand that probably 25k coins are at least Pf 69 Ultra --- so of course there will be more perfect coins graded. Maybe just the fact that there is such a large number of coins available means that the pool of collectors is also large. Compare proof Walking Liberty Half Dollars that have much smaller numbers of coins available and you find a much smaller pool of collectors. Proof 67 examples with brilliant spot and haze free surfaces are elusive but somewhat available for about 1500.00. I think these are sleepers and we will find over time to be comparable in rarity to these '95 Eagles.

The ASEs needed are PR70 DCAMs....not sure but total population between PCGS and NGC is way less than 1% of the total supply.

[GoldFinger1969]

1995-W Silver Eagle Counterfeits; see the original for great pics showing the fraud:

 

http://www.numismaticnews.net/article/fake-2015-w-proof-silver-eagles-reported

 

Fake 2015-W proof silver Eagles reported

 

Fake proof 2015-W silver American Eagles have been reported by Numismatic News columnist F. Michael Fazzari, who works for ICG grading service.

 

He said he purchased a counterfeit 2015-W silver Eagle at the Sarasota, Fla., show that was held Feb. 26-28. He learned of the existence of others.

 

They apparently showed up two weeks earlier at the show in Lakeland, Fla., he said.

 

Fazzari warned that the fakes might be on the Internet too. At least one dealer reportedly bought a bunch and tried to sell them to Heritage where they were rejected.

 

Rumors are that there are other dates, but he could not confirm this by press time.

 

The fake coins are good enough so that a dealer opening the case to check for the coin would see a blazing proof.

 

However, a close naked-eye inspection by a bullion dealer would probably be enough to detect a scam. The box, Mint certificate, and case look OK under a microscope, Fazzari said. They might even be genuine packaging from which the genuine coins were replaced by counterfeits.

 

What the fake proof Eagle is made of is not yet known, but it is somewhat lighter than a genuine coin.

 

It weighs 30.54 grams vs. 31.23 grams for a genuine one.

 

The diameter is also slightly smaller, 39.77-40.05 mm vs. 40.55-40.59 for the genuine pieces.

 

A fake did not test positive for containing either silver or copper using a dealer’s metal analyzer at the show, Fazzari said.

 

The counterfeit’s design is similar enough to fool the average collector or first time buyer.

 

Dealers have picked out the “open” shape of the “Y” in “Liberty” and the lack of feather detail on the Eagle. The flag is crude and the skirt lines are too bold.

 

 

[World Colonial]

I think the fact alone that there is at least 30k '95 proof Silver Eagles available is enough to surely drop the price of Pf 70 Ultra coins. We all understand that probably 25k coins are at least Pf 69 Ultra --- so of course there will be more perfect coins graded. Maybe just the fact that there is such a large number of coins available means that the pool of collectors is also large. Compare proof Walking Liberty Half Dollars that have much smaller numbers of coins available and you find a much smaller pool of collectors. Proof 67 examples with brilliant spot and haze free surfaces are elusive but somewhat available for about 1500.00. I think these are sleepers and we will find over time to be comparable in rarity to these '95 Eagles.

The ASEs needed are PR70 DCAMs....not sure but total population between PCGS and NGC is way less than 1% of the total supply.

 

No the last time I looked. Mintage is 30,152 I believe. PCGS count is/was 105 and NGC over 300.

[BillJones]

I think the fact alone that there is at least 30k '95 proof Silver Eagles available is enough to surely drop the price of Pf 70 Ultra coins. We all understand that probably 25k coins are at least Pf 69 Ultra --- so of course there will be more perfect coins graded. Maybe just the fact that there is such a large number of coins available means that the pool of collectors is also large. Compare proof Walking Liberty Half Dollars that have much smaller numbers of coins available and you find a much smaller pool of collectors. Proof 67 examples with brilliant spot and haze free surfaces are elusive but somewhat available for about 1500.00. I think these are sleepers and we will find over time to be comparable in rarity to these '95 Eagles.

The ASEs needed are PR70 DCAMs....not sure but total population between PCGS and NGC is way less than 1% of the total supply.

 

No the last time I looked. Mintage is 30,152 I believe. PCGS count is/was 105 and NGC over 300.

 

PCGS has graded 113 of these coins in PR-70. They don't break out the Deep Cameo numbers, but since all of these coins are at least cameo, maybe that does not matter. Given there no one in their right mind would crack-out resubmit these coins since PR-70 is be best you can get, that leaves a pretty hard number for the pieces available.

 

PCGS has graded 2,242 in PR-69. All these numbers seem high to me for a coin that sells for a 5 figure number.

 

[RWB]

There are bogus and altered ASGs made in Colorado and sold to fools and suckers, also. So why not 2015-W fakes from elsewhere?

[numisport]

Mark, most of the proof Walkers offered at auction have hazy toning that seems to be acceptable to many. I said brilliant spot free examples being elusive but are available (meaning coins without hazy toning) and do bring more money. These are coins that go into collections rather than auctions. I also look for coins with some cameo contrast. Can you tell I'm not a dealer ?

[dcarr]

There are bogus and altered ASGs made in Colorado and sold to fools and suckers, also. So why not 2015-W fakes from elsewhere?

 

Wow, you are still obsessing about this ?

 

The most credible opinion poll is the one where people vote with their wallet.

And that "opinion" does not match yours in the slightest.

 

[MarkFeld]

Mark, most of the proof Walkers offered at auction have hazy toning that seems to be acceptable to many. I said brilliant spot free examples being elusive but are available (meaning coins without hazy toning) and do bring more money. These are coins that go into collections rather than auctions. I also look for coins with some cameo contrast. Can you tell I'm not a dealer ?

 

I understand that brilliant, spot-free examples sell for premiums, but I have seen a good number of such coins sell for considerably less than $1000. Are you looking at shows and/or auctions, or just on-line?

 

Yes, I can tell you're not a dealer and good for you for not settling.

[MarkFeld]

There are bogus and altered ASGs made in Colorado and sold to fools and suckers, also. So why not 2015-W fakes from elsewhere?

 

Wow, you are still obsessing about this ?

 

The most credible opinion poll is the one where people vote with their wallet.

And that "opinion" does not match yours in the slightest.

 

While I'm with you on your "obsession" issue, I must disagree with the "credible opinion pole" part. Plenty of people "vote with their wallet" on over-graded and/or messed with junk, not knowing what they're buying, And many others buy indisputably counterfeit coins, as opposed to yours, which are open to debate.

[ldhair]

There are bogus and altered ASGs made in Colorado and sold to fools and suckers, also. So why not 2015-W fakes from elsewhere?

 

Wow, you are still obsessing about this ?

 

The most credible opinion poll is the one where people vote with their wallet.

And that "opinion" does not match yours in the slightest.

The most credible opinion poll would be one that everyone voted in. Their wallet would have nothing to do with it. Many have given their opinion and have left it at that. They just don't wish to argue the point.

[Afterword]

I think it is more an obsession with creating the reaction it receives, than a true obsession with Mr. Carr. He initiates the reaction and shortly after starts his own thread on some benign topic. He no doubt follows the conflict he created, but never truly participates beyond the initiation, other than to present some provocative tidbit, when needed, to provide fuel for the flame.

 

[dcarr]

I think it is more an obsession with creating the reaction it receives, than a true obsession with Mr. Carr. He initiates the reaction and shortly after starts his own thread on some benign topic. He no doubt follows the conflict he created, but never truly participates beyond the initiation, other than to present some provocative tidbit, when needed, to provide fuel for the flame.

 

Well, the result is some free advertising.

 

PS:

I never start threads about these things, nor do I ever ask anyone to do it for me.

 

 

 

[dcarr]

There are bogus and altered ASGs made in Colorado and sold to fools and suckers, also. So why not 2015-W fakes from elsewhere?

 

Wow, you are still obsessing about this ?

 

The most credible opinion poll is the one where people vote with their wallet.

And that "opinion" does not match yours in the slightest.

 

While I'm with you on your "obsession" issue, I must disagree with the "credible opinion pole" part. Plenty of people "vote with their wallet" on over-graded and/or messed with junk, not knowing what they're buying, And many others buy indisputably counterfeit coins, as opposed to yours, which are open to debate.

 

Ok, let me clarify my statement.

 

The most credible opinion poll is the one where well-informed potential buyers vote with their wallet.

 

Yes, people sometimes spend too much on over-graded "problem" coins, because they don't know the coin has defects and is undesirable.

 

What I was pointing out is that the subject coin (2009-DC "proofed" over-strike Silver Eagles) have a current market value that is higher than the issue price. About a dozen have sold on eBay in the last couple months. Realized prices ranged from about $140 to $190 for the more-common variety. The original issue price was $85. All of those eBay auctions clearly identified the coin as a private alteration. Several were in ANACS holders which clearly indicate as such on the label.

 

[MarkFeld]

There are bogus and altered ASGs made in Colorado and sold to fools and suckers, also. So why not 2015-W fakes from elsewhere?

 

Wow, you are still obsessing about this ?

 

The most credible opinion poll is the one where people vote with their wallet.

And that "opinion" does not match yours in the slightest.

 

While I'm with you on your "obsession" issue, I must disagree with the "credible opinion pole" part. Plenty of people "vote with their wallet" on over-graded and/or messed with junk, not knowing what they're buying, And many others buy indisputably counterfeit coins, as opposed to yours, which are open to debate.

 

Ok, let me clarify my statement.

 

The most credible opinion poll is the one where well-informed potential buyers vote with their wallet.

 

Yes, people sometimes spend too much on over-graded "problem" coins, because they don't know the coin has defects and is undesirable.

 

What I was pointing out is that the subject coin (2009-DC "proofed" over-strike Silver Eagles) have a current market value that is higher than the issue price. About a dozen have sold on eBay in the last couple months. Realized prices ranged from about $140 to $190 for the more-common variety. The original issue price was $85. All of those eBay auctions clearly identified the coin as a private alteration. Several were in ANACS holders which clearly indicate as such on the label.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[dcarr]

I think it is more an obsession with creating the reaction it receives, than a true obsession with Mr. Carr. He initiates the reaction and shortly after starts his own thread on some benign topic. He no doubt follows the conflict he created, but never truly participates beyond the initiation, other than to present some provocative tidbit, when needed, to provide fuel for the flame.

 

That sounds like the definition of an internet "troll".

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Getting coins like this into holders that increase the value from $20 to $30 to $500 to $1,000 is very hard. The graders know about increases like this, and they don't give out those lofty grades like pieces of candy. The differences between MS-66 to MS-67 are subtle, and not readily apparent to the average collector's eye. There is also bit of luck involved too, because subjectivity can also play a role.

And yet....it happens....and I posted a (famous) thread over from CU (not sure if it's still there and I hope I can find it either online or if I cut-and-pasted it into Word) in which a collector saw a Franklin Half he had go up 2 full grades and get the FBL designation and increase in value something like 20-fold (or something like that).

 

I'll try and track down the posts, it was some very savvy collectors who frequent the CU message boards.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Here it is, 1 1/2 and 2 grade up-moves in many of these coins (I am not a Franklin collector so I have no dog in this hunt):

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/937859/rampant-gradeflation-in-franklins-is-why-i-stopped-collecting-the-series

[Zoins]

What are ASGs?

[Zoins]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

 

Good to hear of a case where MS60 gets some respect!

[GoldFinger1969]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

Good to hear of a case where MS60 gets some respect!

Yeah, on alot of coins where high MS is not available at all or at even semi-reasonable prices, the AU is sometimes more visually appealing than MS-60/61/62 coins. Surprised that one has that much of a bump just to MS-60.

[mumu]

Ridiculous!

I agree. With a mintage of 30,125 and a virtual 100% survival rate, I have never understood the price for this "rarity."

It's the MS70 and DCAM designations that make it super-rare.

 

I don't place much stock in "condition rarity" for modern coins like this. That's based on a short term opinion, and perhaps some supply manipulation by PCGS.

 

The entire modern 69vs70 game is a manipulation. Look at this other Pr70 95 ase. You tell me 3 graders didn't see the hit on the E above the head? No they saw the submitters name and stopped looking most likely.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-W-1-Proof-Silver-Eagle-PCGS-PR70-DCAM-KEY-DATE-PF70-Deep-Cameo-Coin/222391667092?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D3e741e13418147abae1319fdf71fb2a2%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D131732015749

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

What are ASGs?

 

Double Eagle Saints ? Augustus Saint Gaudens ?

[GoldFinger1969]

The entire modern 69vs70 game is a manipulation. Look at this other Pr70 95 ase. You tell me 3 graders didn't see the hit on the E above the head? No they saw the submitters name and stopped looking most likely.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-W-1-Proof-Silver-Eagle-PCGS-PR70-DCAM-KEY-DATE-PF70-Deep-Cameo-Coin/222391667092?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D3e741e13418147abae1319fdf71fb2a2%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D131732015749

Are you talking about that mark between the middle and lower horizontals of the "E" ?

 

Or maybe the indent on the middle horizontal of the "E" ?

 

Either way, it's about 1/50th the size of the "E" itself so maybe it didn't qualify. I can't even tell if the former blotch is on the coin or on the holder.

 

I'd have to see some other PR70 DCAMs to see what the tolerance level is. I mean, if you look long enough at any MS-70 coin you can probably come up with a few microns here or there to knock it down a grade.