Upgrade from 66 to 67

[robec1347]

.... all the sudden early 1970's proof IKE dollars that were next to nonexistent in 70DC started becoming normal in 70DC

I agree the number is huge compared to similarly graded NGC Ike's, but still, saying 70DC became or is becoming the norm is a bit of an over statement.

 

206 PR70DC examples out of 75,850 (0.275%) graded is hardly the norm.

[MarkFeld]

I know the highest price was into 6-figures for at least one 95-W in 70DC. But now, as Mark Feld mentioned, even in PCGS they are under 20K now. One sold at auction 2 maybe 3 weeks ago and if I remember right went for 15K or so. .. this was a PCGS PR70DCam holder. Does anyone know that sometime right about the time the population started increasing exponentially that PCGS started charging $5K per PR70DC that they assigned? While the 95-W silver eagle was $5K for PR70DC, the other moderns were $500 for PR70DC's.... all the sudden early 1970's proof IKE dollars that were next to nonexistent in 70DC started becoming normal in 70DC the top pops for moderns exploded across the board... PCGS made $500 per 70 they assigned on MODERNS. They were selling grades. The fact that this sort of thing happened and nobody talks about it or addresses is mind boggling. In fact, most of you who do not know this probably will not even believe me, but yet it 100% happened.

 

I had heard about that - the $5000 fee for coins that graded PR70DCAM and subsequent jump in the population - and was shocked, as well as extremely disturbed by it.

[RWB]

The FTC has the option to investigate if a complaint is filed.

[Afterword]

Is the fee they are charging the problem or the possibility they are over-grading to acquire that fee? I would think the latter would be difficult to prove, especially considering the subjective nature of grading and the differences between the TPGs standards for grading. The over-grading would have to be fairly blatant to overcome these factors.

 

Has anyone examined enough of these coins to say they are suspect?

 

I also think PCGS would have consulted their lawyers regarding any possible liability.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

Wow, I am SHOCKED there is that much of a price differential between those particular grades for that coin. Many here have talked about how AU coins are sometimes better-looking than those in the low-60's and correspondingly cost alot less.

[GoldFinger1969]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

Or it could be because the coin has a trace of wear that you didn't see, and it really was an AU-58. If it was submitted at least 3 times and it comes back the same every time, chances are good that it is probably the right grade.

If that is true why do so many AU-58 coins end up in MS-61 and 62 holders when the the price difference between AU and MS is not huge?

Could it be that when there is NOT a big price jump to MS-60 or MS-61 that the graders are a bit more lenient in giving out the grade bump ?

 

If the population for a certain coin is very very limited in MS-67.....and the value of the coin jumps by 3-4 fold when you go from 66 to 67...and you submit an MS-66....I think the graders have to be aware of the implications for the existing population, no ?

 

They do have a quasi-fiduciary responsibility to make sure they do not dilute the legit MS-67 holders by giving a borderline coin that grade.

[GoldFinger1969]

I am dubious there is any other coin anywhere that could have anywhere near this count selling for this price.

1907 Saint-Gaudens High Relief....very plentiful in most grades, yet high prices as every coin collector is aware this was probably the finest coin ever minted by the United States.

[GoldFinger1969]

I had heard about that - the $5000 fee for coins that graded PR70DCAM and subsequent jump in the population - and was shocked, as well as extremely disturbed by it.

Novice here...I don't understand what you guys are talking about....I thought the TPGs just charged a set fee for coin grading, are you saying that if you submit a 1995-W ASE and it comes back in the super-valuable state PCGS (and NGC ?) charge you $5,000 for the grade ?

[numisport]

Somebody call PCGS and find out if they do charge extra for 70 grades. I can't imagine NGC doing that.

[Afterword]

Both TPGs charge more for coins with high market values, and market values are a reflection of the grades.

[MarkFeld]

I had heard about that - the $5000 fee for coins that graded PR70DCAM and subsequent jump in the population - and was shocked, as well as extremely disturbed by it.

Novice here...I don't understand what you guys are talking about....I thought the TPGs just charged a set fee for coin grading, are you saying that if you submit a 1995-W ASE and it comes back in the super-valuable state PCGS (and NGC ?) charge you $5,000 for the grade ?

 

My understanding is that they normally do charge a "set fee". But that for some time - I don't know how long - PCGS charged over and above the standard fee in the case of the PR70 1995's being discussed.

[GoldFinger1969]

Both TPGs charge more for coins with high market values, and market values are a reflection of the grades.

$5,000 ? 1/3rd of the value

 

What do they charge for a 1907 Saint HR ?!!

[GoldFinger1969]

I had heard about that - the $5000 fee for coins that graded PR70DCAM and subsequent jump in the population - and was shocked, as well as extremely disturbed by it.

Novice here...I don't understand what you guys are talking about....I thought the TPGs just charged a set fee for coin grading, are you saying that if you submit a 1995-W ASE and it comes back in the super-valuable state PCGS (and NGC ?) charge you $5,000 for the grade ?

My understanding is that they normally do charge a "set fee". But that for some time - I don't know how long - PCGS charged over and above the standard fee in the case of the PR70 1995's being discussed.

Thanks Mark...that is VERY STRANGE...admittedly I am not a coin grading expert and haven't followed the biz that long....but it almost seems like they are dissuading new entrants to protect the existing field of MS70 DCAMs.

 

I could understand a $5,000 fee on super-rare coins costing multiple-6 figures like a 1927-D Saint....as a % of the market value if you get preferential serevice/treatment, but this is 1/3rd of the value. You'd have to be crazy to pay it (if NGC doesn't charge, they're gonna get all the future business).

 

Maybe PCGS/NGC are sure there aren't any more 1995-Ws....or very few of them. AG's might not have an interest in pursuing legal action here since it affects so few coins.

 

OTOH....you could say it is unfair trade practice to protect the existing MS70 DCAM holders....and that after charging the older ones < $50 to grade, charging $5,000 for the new coins is restraint of trade or something.

 

Whole thing is VERY fishy...I can't believe either TPG is a party to it. Wonder if there's anything on their websites about it.

[Afterword]

Is there any real evidence that this is actually occurring, or is it simply hearsay?

[MarkFeld]

I had heard about that - the $5000 fee for coins that graded PR70DCAM and subsequent jump in the population - and was shocked, as well as extremely disturbed by it.

Novice here...I don't understand what you guys are talking about....I thought the TPGs just charged a set fee for coin grading, are you saying that if you submit a 1995-W ASE and it comes back in the super-valuable state PCGS (and NGC ?) charge you $5,000 for the grade ?

My understanding is that they normally do charge a "set fee". But that for some time - I don't know how long - PCGS charged over and above the standard fee in the case of the PR70 1995's being discussed.

Thanks Mark...that is VERY STRANGE...admittedly I am not a coin grading expert and haven't followed the biz that long....but it almost seems like they are dissuading new entrants to protect the existing field of MS70 DCAMs.

 

I could understand a $5,000 fee on super-rare coins costing multiple-6 figures like a 1927-D Saint....as a % of the market value if you get preferential serevice/treatment, but this is 1/3rd of the value. You'd have to be crazy to pay it (if NGC doesn't charge, they're gonna get all the future business).

 

Maybe PCGS/NGC are sure there aren't any more 1995-Ws....or very few of them. AG's might not have an interest in pursuing legal action here since it affects so few coins.

 

OTOH....you could say it is unfair trade practice to protect the existing MS70 DCAM holders....and that after charging the older ones < $50 to grade, charging $5,000 for the new coins is restraint of trade or something.

 

Whole thing is VERY fishy...I can't believe either TPG is a party to it. Wonder if there's anything on their websites about it.

 

I think it would encourage, not "dissuade new entrants". The high fee was supposedly only for coins which graded 70. In other words, for coins that would be worth a lot more than the fees charged. And whether as a result of that or other factors, the population eventually increased significantly.

[GoldFinger1969]

I think it would encourage, not "dissuade new entrants". The high fee was supposedly only for coins which graded 70. In other words, for coins that would be worth a lot more than the fees charged. And whether as a result of that or other factors, the population eventually increased significantly.

But who in their right mind -- unless it's a super-rich person who doesn't care about the $$$ -- would willingly forfeit 1/3rd the value of a coin ? If/when the coin was worth close to $100,000 I could see someone paying it if they knew for sure they could get 15-20x the cost of the grading service.

 

But 1/3rd the value ? That's boiler-room type commissions !

 

If I had a 1995-W ASE that I thought was MS70 DCAM I would send it to NGC...I'd even go 2nd tier with ICG or ANACs. Or I'd forgo the rating until sanity returned.

 

Gonna scan the Net and see if I can find out more..........

[MarkFeld]

I think it would encourage, not "dissuade new entrants". The high fee was supposedly only for coins which graded 70. In other words, for coins that would be worth a lot more than the fees charged. And whether as a result of that or other factors, the population eventually increased significantly.

But who in their right mind -- unless it's a super-rich person who doesn't care about the $$$ -- would willingly forfeit 1/3rd the value of a coin ? If/when the coin was worth close to $100,000 I could see someone paying it if they knew for sure they could get 15-20x the cost of the grading service.

 

But 1/3rd the value ? That's boiler-room type commissions !

 

If I had a 1995-W ASE that I thought was MS70 DCAM I would send it to NGC...I'd even go 2nd tier with ICG or ANACs. Or I'd forgo the rating until sanity returned.

 

Gonna scan the Net and see if I can find out more..........

 

I believe that the NGC graded coins were and are trading at much lower levels than the PCGS ones and that even with the added fees, it still made economic sense to try for PCGS 70's. Also, at the time, the coins were trading for significantly more than they are now, so the fees were not "1/3 the value" of the coins.

[BillJones]

I believe that the NGC graded coins were and are trading at much lower levels than the PCGS ones and that even with the added fees, it still made economic sense to try for PCGS 70's. Also, at the time, the coins were trading for significantly more than they are now, so the fees were not "1/3 the value" of the coins.

 

This one of the reasons why I so glad that I am not involved in this market. When you are collecting fees like that for a grade, it looks like a conflict of interest. This also why I fight so hard NOT to allow PCGS to become THE dominant grading company or perhaps the ONLY major grading company.

 

Whatever great things you can say about PCGS, they do act like monopolists at times, and monopolies are not good for consumers.

 

[World Colonial]

I am dubious there is any other coin anywhere that could have anywhere near this count selling for this price.

1907 Saint-Gaudens High Relief....very plentiful in most grades, yet high prices as every coin collector is aware this was probably the finest coin ever minted by the United States.

 

Not IMO but I am in the minority.

[World Colonial]

I believe that the NGC graded coins were and are trading at much lower levels than the PCGS ones and that even with the added fees, it still made economic sense to try for PCGS 70's. Also, at the time, the coins were trading for significantly more than they are now, so the fees were not "1/3 the value" of the coins.

 

I have only looked at the Heritage archives. Last time I looked, my recollection was that a PCGS 70 sold for about 1/3 more than an NGC for the 95-W ASE.

 

I also recall when the PCGS thread for the 95-W which sold for $86K was active a few years ago, the PCGS count was two or maybe three. When I checked earlier for this thread, it was 105 and the NGC count is a small multiple of that, as in over 300.

 

I have also anecdotally looked at prices for individual coins in a number of series and for those who don't know it, a PCGS coin in the same grade frequently or even usually seems to sell for more than an NGC. I understand there may be exceptions (maybe for Franklin halves with FBL) but my observations are consistent with the commentary I have read on the PCGS forum.

 

This is for US coins and for the record, most of my coins are in NGC holders, none of them are US, I have never submitted a coin to PCGS, the PCGS premium to my knowledge does not apply to world coins or certainly not across the board and no I don't believe PCGS coins are generally any better for the coins I collect. It varies.

[numisport]

So if my coin ended up as 70 and I didn't want to {or couldn't afford to} pay the fee; could I ask them to return the coin raw ? Knowing the grade was 70 really doesn't mean much without the holder now does it.

[Afterword]

So if my coin ended up as 70 and I didn't want to {or couldn't afford to} pay the fee; could I ask them to return the coin raw ? Knowing the grade was 70 really doesn't mean much without the holder now does it.

 

 

 

Call PCGS, and ask them. You will be certain to receive the correct answer.

[GoldFinger1969]

FWIW, a 1995-W is actively bid on Ebay right now, $21,000 and counting:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-W-American-Silver-Eagle-PCGS-PR70-Deep-Cameo-The-Series-KEY-/131732015749?hash=item1eabd70a85:g:8L4AAOSwvUlWp~

 

Feel free to get involved, I am not.

[GoldFinger1969]

The 1995-W went for $22,310.

[RWB]

Ridiculous!

 

[BillJones]

Ridiculous!

 

I agree. With a mintage of 30,125 and a virtual 100% survival rate, I have never understood the price for this "rarity."

[Afterword]

I wonder how many people collect this series - 1,000, 10,000, 100,000.....?

[oih82w8]

Absolutley crazy! I wish that I had this kind of money to throw around on coins...yes plural.

[numisport]

Guess I've misplaced my '09 Silver Eagle; it was Proof 70 too !

[GoldFinger1969]

Ridiculous!

I agree. With a mintage of 30,125 and a virtual 100% survival rate, I have never understood the price for this "rarity."

It's the MS70 and DCAM designations that make it super-rare.