1800/79 Large Cent, NGC VF-35, but unquestionably should have been body-bagged!

[James_OldeTowne]

Can you see why?

 

 

Sorry for the crummy quality, but the slab is badly scratched (on purpose...?), and the coin quite dark. You can view the jumbo-fied version here.

 

James

[RGT]

I see that someone did a sloppy touch-up job on the dentils, at least on the obverse. Would you call this "tooled"? It sure wasn't a precision tool.

[Count_Erfit]

Aye, but what matter the coin? Tis the CASE that maketh the heart leap with joy.

 

............... Jitterspeare

 

[Leothelion]

AT toning?

 

Leo

[melmcbee]

Is it the famous spaghetti hair fake? No that is the Draped Bust dollars.

[James_OldeTowne]

Randy nailed it immediately. The obverse dentilation has been re-engraved (tooled) most of the way around the periphery to make the coin appear to be of a higher grade. I'm very surprised that this one made it past the NGC graders, as they seldom miss such obvious alteration! Needless to say, this one is going back for appearance review, as my client (it is not my coin) is in it at well over $1200.

 

I have a feeling the coin has been recolored too, but as we all know, many early coppers have been so processed, and if at least reasonably well done, they will still get holdered.

 

Hope this was viewed as an educational thread. My goal was not to slam NGC.

 

James

[DWLange]

I haven't seen the coin, other than via your photo, but it appears to be S-194. This variety is known to come with extra denticles inside the border due to clashed dies. These typically don't extend all the way around, but it will interesting to see whether this is the case or the coin was actually tooled.

[James_OldeTowne]

It is indeed S-194 - pretty common, and I've owned several, including coins with a hint of doubled denticles. However, that is not the case here. Someone has clearly used a pointed instrument of some sort to "push" little beads of metal on both the left and right sides of the periphery. In hand and close up, you can clearly see where the metal is built up from the tooling. Regardless, the overall impression of the "denticles" just screams out that something's not right.

 

DWLange, I also have a 1900 Liberty nickel in need of appearance review (it seems to have developed a hint of corrosion while in the holder). How do I go about submitting these coins together for this purpose?

 

Thanks!

 

James

[DWLange]

Just write up a submission form with the usual information (certification number, insured value, etc.) and a brief description of your concerns about them. Check the DESIGNATION REVIEW box. They don't need to be sorted by Tier values for this service. There is no charge, other than the return postage. NGC will decide what, if anything, needs to be done. Be sure to send the coins by Registered, Insured mail.

[James_OldeTowne]

This coin issue has reared its ugly head (pun intended) again.

 

When I got it back from NGC, a couple of strange things occurred. Number one, they went ahead and put it back in a VF-35 no-problem slab, despite the blatant tooling on the obverse. But more disconcerting is that the coin was suddenly "gold" in color! Needless to say, I wasn't satisfied with the situation at all.

 

It took me a few months to decide that I needed to pursue the issue again. At the Silver Dollar show, this past weekend, NGC was present, so I have resubmitted the coin, this time to Chris at NCS for another review. In this case, the NCS Submission Form now states two problems:

 

1) "Retooled Obv"

2) Color lighter after previous submission

 

I'll let you know of further developments.

 

James

[michael]

keep us informed

[James_OldeTowne]

Quick response by Chris at NCS! I received the following eMail from him early this morning (contact information suppressed for privacy):

 

Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:51:31 -0400

From: <Chris>

To: <james>

Subject: re: 1800/79 1C

 

Your 1800/79 1c dropped off at the recent St. Louis Silver Dollar Show has been assessed by the NGC graders. We agree with you that there is some re-tooling on the obverse of this coin. NGC would like to buy this coin back. Would this be acceptable?

 

Chris

NCS Conservator-Customer Service

I've made a counter-offer regarding a possible solution to the issue, and will let you know what happens.

 

One more followup note. I did also submit the 1900 Liberty nickel for appearance review - it was mentioned in the response to DWLange's post. NCS did a phenomenal job of removing the brown build-up, and the coin was beautiful after their conservation work. I'm sure the situation regarding the 1800/79 will be worked out appropriately.

 

James

[chinook]

NGC

[BankNote1]

The question I have is why would it take them 2 looks at the coin to tell it had be tooled??? A blind baboon could tell at a glance something just aint right with that cent!!!

[IGWT]

. . . and what about the mysterious change in color.

[BankNote1]

[EZ_E]

. . . and what about the mysterious change in color.

 

I have no problem with the color (the tooling is another issue, however!). EAC and condor token collectors have mastered the restoration techniques for these early copper specimens and I have no problem with it since they do such outstanding restoration work.

[IGWT]

I have no problem with the color (the tooling is another issue, however!). EAC and condor token collectors have mastered the restoration techniques for these early copper specimens and I have no problem with it since they do such outstanding restoration work.

 

Hi Victor -- You might have missed the part of James's post to which I was referring:

 

When I got it back from NGC, a couple of strange things occurred. Number one, they went ahead and put it back in a VF-35 no-problem slab, despite the blatant tooling on the obverse. But more disconcerting is that the coin was suddenly "gold" in color!

 

I would expect my coins to be returned from a TPG with the same color/toning even if the graders missed obvious retooling.

[EZ_E]

I have no problem with the color (the tooling is another issue, however!). EAC and condor token collectors have mastered the restoration techniques for these early copper specimens and I have no problem with it since they do such outstanding restoration work.

 

Hi Victor -- You might have missed the part of James's post to which I was referring:

 

 

As Orville said to Wilbur, "You're WRIGHT!" Missed the color change quote.

[James_OldeTowne]

This issue has been resolved! I just received a check dated 12/01/2005 from NGC today, and in my opinion, the amount represents a fair settlement of the issue. Approximate time to resolution was about five weeks, but that includes holiday time for Thanksgiving, plus it is my understanding that Chris Shappell (who was handling the issue) was on vacation for more than a week.

 

KUDOS to NCS / NGC for coming through with their grading guarantee. I now have documentary proof that, for at least one personal instance, the grading guarantee IS LEGITIMATE.

 

Just thought everyone might like to know. Although I'm just a very small-time submitter, I'll continue recommending NGC over PCGS for certification, and my next submission will definitely go to the "right side" of the street.

 

THANK YOU NCS / NGC.

 

James

[braddick]

[kryptonitecomics]

Good read...glad everything was settled to your satisfaction.

[michael]

[HaydenTubbs]

Although I'm just a very small-time submitter, I'll continue recommending NGC over PCGS for certification, and my next submission will definitely go to the "right side" of the street.

 

 

 

 

[mark]

James:

 

Interesting tale of a coin. I'm intrigued by the fact that it took NGC three looks at the coin before the agreed that there was re-tooling. Have you any idea why it took so many attempts? I don't know large cents that well, so was the coin that deceptive in that it might truly look like a legit S-194 with extra denticles? Do the denticles of an S-194 look like the coin you pictured?

 

Mark

 

P.S.: To throw a bit of gasoline on a fire, I wonder what would have been said over here if it took another company that shall remain nameless but is "on the other side of the street" three attempts to catch retooling?

[James_OldeTowne]

Mark, good questions.

 

As indicated in an earlier post, a couple of the guys at NGC honestly thought that the "dentils" were legitimate, and had the odd look due to an unknown striking problem. So, that would explain "Oversight #1" - the initial grading of the coin. It's quite possible that some of the grading folks who don't deal much with large cents didn't realize that there is NO early copper (large cents or half-cents) with dentils configured that way.

 

"Oversight #2" may have been partially my fault. The first time I sent the coin for appearance review some months ago, I did not specifically ask to have them look for tooling. In fact, I think I merely checked the "appearance review" option. This was the instance where the coin came back to me having changed colors rather dramatically. I suspect that the folks at NGC simply assumed I was concerned with how dark the surfaces of the coin were, and they lightened it. Note that I think the coin was artificially recolored after it was tooled in order to "tone down" the evidence of the doctoring. Of course, one has to question why NCS would "lighten" the coin's color without that being specifically requested...

 

It was after personally meeting with Chris Shappell that things got ironed out. Chris specifically handwrote on the NCS submission form that tooling was suspected. So the third event of grading the coin is what finally resulted in the problem being corrected.

 

It's interesting to speculate what the fellows "across the street" might have done, but I can tell you this. In reference to the infamous Norweb Hibernia, after two opportunities to review the coin, the twofold problem of it being doctored, and being incorrectly pedigreed, had not been corrected. Curiously, nobody seems to know where that coin now resides.

 

James

[gmarguli]

Of course, one has to question why NCS would "lighten" the coin's color without that being specifically requested...

 

Not really. The NCS form states that unless you tell them exactly what you are looking for, they will do what they thinks needs to be done. If you just send the coin to NCS for work, they will decide what needs to be done and in this case they felt it was too dark and they lightened it.

 

That's why when I send a coin to NCS, I list exactly what I want done (i.e. I want the toning on the reverse lightened, but the obverse toning left alone OR I want the coin blast white, etc). All but once my requests were followed and I think they did a good job overall.

[mark]

James:

 

Does your comment about the infamous Norweb coin mean that it's lost???

 

If you don't feel like answering, I can understand...but how/where did it go missing?

 

Thanks for your answers to my other questions.

 

Mark

[James_OldeTowne]

The "Norweb" coin was retained by PCGS after they finally admitted to one of the two certification errors, but mysteriously, its whereabouts are presently unknown..... maybe it now has an Eliasberg pedigree for all I know .

 

 

James