From ATS - Counterfeit Coins in NGC, PCGS and ANACs slabs...

[TonerGuy]

Interesting thread from ATS for those of you that dont surf over there as well...

 

Very scary if its true which it looks like it is...

 

https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=26&threadid=955781&enterthread=y

[mumu]

Love those egos ATS immediately contesting the poster.

[KMAG100]

What would happen in that situation? Would the TPG be on the hook for anything? Or would you be subject to only their willingness to help if they felt so inclined?

[Rickey]

What would happen in that situation? Would the TPG be on the hook for anything? Or would you be subject to only their willingness to help if they felt so inclined?

I am sure that if the TPG slabbed a coin and it was counterfeit that they would stand behind it 100%.

[AHFreak]

Not sure what PCGS would do, I have heard some pretty concerning stories but I believe if you read that article, it is pretty obvious that NGC is doing what they can in order to make it right.

[mumu]

If their guarantee doesn't cover that then its pretty much worthless.

[MarkFeld]

Love those egos ATS immediately contesting the poster.

 

I think it was perfectly reasonable and understandable to question the poster's claims and ask for additional information/verification. Especially considering that, at least at first and second glance, the EBay seller's coins look quite convincing.

[TonerGuy]

Love those egos ATS immediately contesting the poster.

 

I think it was perfectly reasonable and understandable to question the poster's claims and ask for additional information/verification. Especially considering that, at least at first and second glance, the EBay seller's coins look quite convincing.

 

Mark - can you help shed some light on this die-transfer process of making a counterfeit coin and how it could be done so well (assuming those coins are counterfeit and made it past the graders at NGC, PCGS and ANACs) that it could fool an expert ?

 

Or do you think these are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs (which at least doesnt seem to be the case by NGC's actions so far)...

 

Thanks in advance.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Insofar as making sure your coins are genuine, with no switcheroos of any kind to your NGC slabs, go the distance when doing the Verification look up.

 

Not only should the coin match on a few features that may uniquely identify it, but the printed-material insert shown in the Verification look up will also have a few stray, unintended anomalies, that will further help verify that the slab is genuine. Positioning and centering of the label, slight print anomalies other than the intended info, can combine together to add assurance.

 

Get the coin and slab to both match up in no uncertain terms, and your NGC guarantee is unshakable.

 

If asked at random, I don't know how collectors will answer ten years from now, but if I were asked today if I believed all of my coins were genuine, I'd say yes they are, and this is because they've been TPGed, and were acquired before any new technology of die-transfer capability had worked its way into our hobby that (hopefully not) eventually became hugely invasive.

 

So, provenance of ownership will also play a factor in the brave new world of authenticity that we're heading into.

[physics-fan3.14]

and were acquired before any new technology of die-transfer capability had worked its way into our hobby that (hopefully not) eventually became hugely invasive.

 

Die transfer counterfeiting has been around for decades. The only difference now is where it is being done.

[Nutmeg Coin]

Obviously the online seller who apparently developed a history of selling questionable coins will lose out in the long run and the ebay reporting system will work against him and others like him. Over a certain value level buyers are a lot more skeptical.

 

Quality coins don't just come out of the woodwork, but are passed on from generation to generation. There are many tools being employed to counter the problem of the counterfeit coin threat, and I doubt that examples like these are that large issue percentage-wise. Most dealers know their providers of rare coins well and if anything are overly judgmental about coins they have come through their doors and that they later sell raw or certified.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Everyone ATS is aghast over the coins that have been identified, but if this sort of thing has been around for decades, then why the latest round of hysteria?

 

When you point out that “The only difference now is where it is being done,” are you getting at the notion that there will be a flooding of the marketplace because they can be done so cheaply in China, and with impunity? Or are you getting at a caveat emptor "upping of the ante," because the coins are showing incredible attention to detail that can fool even TPGs, and because the Chinese are pulling this off, a vast improvement of the die-transfer technology may be at hand?

 

I wonder if a "game changer" for the hobby is in the making. Or is it little more than a lot of work is required for each coin die-transfer, and the rapidity of discovery by the Internet makes the counterfeiter's get rich scheme an actual money loser.

[Insider]

True, transfer dies have been around for decades; however, many of the counterfeits made by transfer dies at this time defy detection - even by TPGS - for a time until they are detected. This was rarely the case even 10 years ago. IMO, we haven't seen their best work yet. The days of the hand lens for authentication are over and state-of-the-art fakes are pushing the envelope for microscopes too.

[Nutmeg Coin]

The US government should just enforce the rules and step up the penalties for anyone who traffics in these fakes without designating them as such. And just fine them at a high enough rate to pay for the Secret Service workers needed to enforce the law.

[MarkFeld]

Love those egos ATS immediately contesting the poster.

 

I think it was perfectly reasonable and understandable to question the poster's claims and ask for additional information/verification. Especially considering that, at least at first and second glance, the EBay seller's coins look quite convincing.

 

Mark - can you help shed some light on this die-transfer process of making a counterfeit coin and how it could be done so well (assuming those coins are counterfeit and made it past the graders at NGC, PCGS and ANACs) that it could fool an expert ?

 

Or do you think these are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs (which at least doesnt seem to be the case by NGC's actions so far)...

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I don't fell that I know enough about the coins or the process to provide a meaningful answer - sorry. I am confused by the whole thing, including why NGC and PCGS have apparently been unable to get the listings pulled by EBay.

[physics-fan3.14]

Love those egos ATS immediately contesting the poster.

 

I think it was perfectly reasonable and understandable to question the poster's claims and ask for additional information/verification. Especially considering that, at least at first and second glance, the EBay seller's coins look quite convincing.

 

Mark - can you help shed some light on this die-transfer process of making a counterfeit coin and how it could be done so well (assuming those coins are counterfeit and made it past the graders at NGC, PCGS and ANACs) that it could fool an expert ?

 

Or do you think these are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs (which at least doesnt seem to be the case by NGC's actions so far)...

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I don't fell that I know enough about the coins or the process to provide a meaningful answer - sorry. I am confused by the whole thing, including why NGC and PCGS have apparently been unable to get the listings pulled by EBay.

 

Probably the best book I've read on counterfeit coins, and how they are made, is this book here: http://smile.amazon.com/Numismatic-Forgery-Charles-M-Larson/dp/0974237124/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449932777&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=numsimatic+forgery

 

It was published before the Chinese makers really got big, but their techniques are often very similar.

[Conder101]

Everyone ATS is aghast over the coins that have been identified, but if this sort of thing has been around for decades, then why the latest round of hysteria?

Because up to now a fake coin getting past the TPG's and into a slab has been a very rare event. Now suddenly one to two dozen of them appear at the same time and from more than one service. it would seem to imply that the fakes are getting good enough to fool the grading services. Once that happens ALL coins become suspect raw or slabbed.

[PocketArt]

TonerGuy, thanks for posting this subject, I suppose forewarned is forearmed. I never have heard of this "die transfer" process and must say it is very disconcerting! About 75% of the coins I purchase are already slabbed by reputable TPG's; especially the key dates in my collection as insurance to my ignorance! If counterfeiters can achieve proper weight of a coin, realistic patina to a degree, and wear, I suppose knowing the provenance of the coin would be the only sure fire way of guaranteeing authenticity- as others have suggested.

 

I used to collect Indian Artifacts for several years before selling my collection and investing in coins; that particular hobby was flooded with fakes, and was part of the reason I lost interest. Many rare types were reproduced so well that it was virtually impossible to tell the difference. The only way to guarantee buying an authentic, rare piece was from old documented collections that were pictured.

 

At least the clad coinage is safe from these hucksters! I hope!

[RWB]

Authentication is the reason PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc. were formed. That has to be their first task.

[dragon]

Authentication is the reason PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc. were formed. That has to be their first task.

 

 

 

IIRC, I thought the reason that pcgs was formed was in order to grade/encapsulate coins so they could be traded via a sight unseen network and also for the benefit of a rare coin mutual fund which later failed. What pcgs has morphed into since is anyones guess IMO.

[dragon]

Not sure what PCGS would do, I have heard some pretty concerning stories but I believe if you read that article, it is pretty obvious that NGC is doing what they can in order to make it right.

 

 

 

Among other things, I've heard horror stories from at least one high profile pcgs member dealer that had to re-submit obviously 'worked on' coins in pcgs holders at least 2 or 3 times and basically go public with the coin before pcgs would finally make good on their guaranty. I personally would not trust pcgs to do the right thing, although I would definitely trust NGC to step up and act in a forthright and honest manner.

[RWB]

The American Numismatic Association Authentication Bureau (ANAAB) was formed to independently determine the authenticity of coins submitted to it. This eventually became American Numismatic Association Certification Service (ANACS), and then just "ANACS" when it was sold to Amos Press for $1 million.

 

"Grading" was just an add-on.

 

Actually, instead of me relying on possibly faulty ancient memory, you can look up the entire history in The Numismatist on-line archive. Start with counterfeit coins or the name Virgil Hanc`ock, and the various acronyms mentioned.

[truthteller]

Everyone ATS is aghast over the coins that have been identified, but if this sort of thing has been around for decades, then why the latest round of hysteria?

Because up to now a fake coin getting past the TPG's and into a slab has been a very rare event. Now suddenly one to two dozen of them appear at the same time and from more than one service. it would seem to imply that the fakes are getting good enough to fool the grading services. Once that happens ALL coins become suspect raw or slabbed.

 

 

This is the way it should be. If the collector educated him/herself to the actual knowledge of the coin, then a bad coin in a slab becomes more obvious. It used to be where a coin collector was educated in coins, the series, the diagnostics. Now a collector relies on the slab. The grading services have become a crutch for knowledge of how to grade and attribute a coin. I know of many current dealers and collectors who do not know how to grade a coin, much less the diagnostics, once it is out of the holder.

 

 

TRUTH

[Conder101]

Authentication is the reason PCGS, NGC, ANACS, etc. were formed. That has to be their first task.

Authentication is why ANACS was formed, Grading is is why the others were formed.

 

The American Numismatic Association Authentication Bureau (ANAAB) was formed to independently determine the authenticity of coins submitted to it. This eventually became American Numismatic Association Certification Service (ANACS), and then just "ANACS" when it was sold to Amos Press for $1 million.

Got the companies backward.

 

ANACS opened in 1972 as a company that did authentication only. Grading was added as a six month experiment in Jan 1979 that never ended. ANACS was sold to Amos Press in 1990. ANAAB was formed by the ANA in 1992 or 93 once the non-competition clause in the sales contract of ANACS expired. ANAAB returned to its roots and was an authentication only company. It closed its doors in Nov of 2002. It closed due to a lack of submissions and the difficulty retaining top quality professionals. (It probably didn't help that in a world rapidly turning to slabs ANAAB continued to use photocertificates.)

 

There was a precursor to ANACS, it was ANAAT but that was only used from 1968 to 1970 while they were fundraising to start the authentication company. ANAAT became ANACS in 1970 two years before ANACS began commercial operations.

[TonerGuy]

Well this certainly makes toners a bit more attractive then...

 

I doubt the Chinese are going to bother with learning how to AT coins.

 

And it makes coins in older slabs more certain as well as it appears all of the counterfeit coins sold are in the newer NGC/PCGS/IGC/ANACs - slabs so this must be a recent development.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Well this certainly makes toners a bit more attractive then...

 

I doubt the Chinese are going to bother with learning how to AT coins.

 

And it makes coins in older slabs more certain as well as it appears all of the counterfeit coins sold are in the newer NGC/PCGS/IGC/ANACs - slabs so this must be a recent development.

 

Then you are not well versed in the practiced Art of the Taco Bell Napkin method.

[physics-fan3.14]

Well this certainly makes toners a bit more attractive then...

 

I doubt the Chinese are going to bother with learning how to AT coins.

 

 

The chinese have been simulating wear, corrosion, handling, and a host of other problems in an attempt to disguise their work. Many of the coins referenced are in problem holders. They have also been simulating aging copper.

 

It is only one step further to simulate toning. I wouldn't be surprised if a chinese forger hooked up with an expert AT'er - its the next logical progression in their craft.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Let’s get some estimate of opinion.

 

You have 20 coins, they’re all slabbed by either of the top two TPGs, and some of your coins have thousands of dollars of present day value.

 

The slabbed coins were all purchased from reputable dealers who would not knowingly sell counterfeits.

 

What is the likelihood, percent-wise, that any one of your 20 coins is counterfeit?

 

100%, 10%, 1%…0.00001%, zero?

 

(Neither artificial toning, nor “conservation,” apply in this definition of counterfeit, but doctoring does: imperfection removal, mint mark deceit, etc.)

[TonerGuy]

Well this certainly makes toners a bit more attractive then...

 

I doubt the Chinese are going to bother with learning how to AT coins.

 

 

The chinese have been simulating wear, corrosion, handling, and a host of other problems in an attempt to disguise their work. Many of the coins referenced are in problem holders. They have also been simulating aging copper.

 

It is only one step further to simulate toning. I wouldn't be surprised if a chinese forger hooked up with an expert AT'er - its the next logical progression in their craft.

 

I think the other surface issues you mention are much easier to mimic than is AT that truly looks NT. It comes down to why bother if you can get non-toned coins pass the graders this easily. Water finds its own level.

 

And further more why would a so-called "expert AT'er" share that knowledge to increase his competition ? And in essence put himself out of business once the TPGs pick up on the tell-tale signs.

[physics-fan3.14]

And further more why would a so-called "expert AT'er" share that knowledge to increase his competition ? And in essence put himself out of business once the TPGs pick up on the tell-tale signs.

 

The expert AT'er in my scenario wouldn't share his knowledge - he would source his coins from the Chinese and AT them himself. He would then sell them as genuine toned coins.