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MS69 vs MS70....

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I recently watched four auctions close that provided me the opportunity to ask everyone if they think they can tell the difference between a SP69 and a SP70 coin. All were SMS Jeffersons, the first two being 1994's and the second two being 1997's, all in NGC slabs.

 

Here are the 94 coins first.

744626-smsc.jpg

744629-smsd.jpg

 

And here are the 97 coins.

744615-smsa.jpg

744624-smsb.jpg

 

In each case, some of you may be able to readily spot what makes one a 69 and the other a 70 but when you can't (as I must admit to), is the one point difference worth the money? The 94 SP69 sold for $70 while the 70 brought $550. In the case of the 97's, the 69 sold for $210 and the 70 got $1150!

 

I know that most would say it's just a matter of registry points, and not really the coin. I might agree with you if it weren't for the pop reports for these two dates. For the 1994, there are 98 listed in SP69 and 10 in SP70. For the 1997, there are 67 in SP69 with 38 in SP70.

 

Mathematically, the 94 in 70 sold for 8X the 69 with tenX the quantity. The 97 in 70 sold for 5X the 69 but the quantity ratio is less then 2X. Basically, I wouldn't have expected the 97 in 70 to sell for so much or the 94 in 70 to sell for so little, considering the availability (or lack thereof) in the grades noted.

 

Aside from the price, can anyone point out noticeable differences between the two sets even from the inadequate pictures? As my only info is the slab, anything you might see or do see, I wouldn't be able to give a yes or no to as I can only propose possibilities myself. I'll give the grades later.

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It's impossible to make such a call from the pics but they are very nice pics. I have three of these and had a 94-P certified. It's a 69 and there is a tiny nick on one of the pillars but you need a 16X doublet to see it. The pop numbers are interesting but the mintage differences between the two are 7X and may have played a role in the prices.

 

Leo

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It's impossible to make such a call from the pics but they are very nice pics. The pop numbers are interesting but the mintage differences between the two are 7X and may have played a role in the prices.

 

Leo

 

With the 69 and 70 grades coupled with a photo through a slab, there's too much "noise" that a person will get from dust on the slab, scratches, etc. So, I agree that though the pics are nice, they can't be used to discern these grades.

 

And I think Leo hit the nail on the head about prices. BTW, PCGS grades 719/11 for the 1994 in 69/70, and 555/75 for the 1997 in 69/70. It does point out David's contention that the difference in the prices, especially of the MS70s, is rather odd.

 

Hoot

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It's my understanding that flaws on the edge of a coin may prohibit an otherwise MS-70 coin to the MS-69 level. Of course, the ironic thing is that the slab would then hide any such flaws!

 

My guess will be that the first and last coins pictured are the MS-69s. I believe in the philosophy that there has never ever been an MS-70 struck yet, though....

 

James

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Grading at that level to me is meaningless. They are all pretty much the same. I'd say...save your dough and get a nice MS67 (or whatever grade is cheap compared to the others).

 

What I find far more interesting is that toning on the 1994. Why do the reverses of those coins ALWAYS have gold toning? I bought mine years ago (in the original packaging) and it already had the toning....although quite a bit more than yours have. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

jom

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I couldn't possibly tell the difference through the images, and might not be able to do it even in-hand. My only experience with coins graded MS69 is that I looked through some modern gold commems graded MS69 by PCGS and I thought that the grade window was larger than I anticipated. That is, there were more coins that I would have thought weren't MS69 in the group than I expected to see. Please note, this was only with modern gold commems and it was a small batch of coins, so I don't know if anything meaningful can be read into my experience.

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Grading at that level to me is meaningless. They are all pretty much the same. I'd say...save your dough and get a nice MS67 (or whatever grade is cheap compared to the others).

 

You couldn’t have put it better, IMHO the way cheaper grades, 67s, 68s, should have fine enough strike, good luster, and lack of nicks and disturbances that one really can’t tell them apart but for the insert.

 

Come on….

Step right up to the wheel of grading fortune…

Spin the wheel, around and around it goes… rata tat tat tat… looks like you’ve landed on a 68, so there you go, bye now.

What?

You’re not happy?

You feel your coin is as fine as any to be found in the land??

Well… You must understand… the wheel is large; there are many spots to land on… But few are numbered with a 69, and far less with a 70…. Oh please, don’t despair for you may spin the wheel again if you wish, and again and again! 893crossfingers-thumb.gif

 

As long you have da money to place the be… I mean submission fees… Bwah ha ha ha devil.gif

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I don't have an opinion on the subject per say, but I do own one of the 94's in MS69FS.......I thought I was buying the 97 version...hit the BIN and paid too much......sometimes I just need to slow down a bit foreheadslap.gif

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just make sure that if you buy the ms/pf 70 coins you do not break them out of their respective holders as then the value goes way down i think 893scratchchin-thumb.gif like over 70%-95% when it is raw vs the coin in the 70 holder before you cracked it out

 

so this to me sums it all up

 

 

coins are a hobby not an investment and buy coins with discretionary income

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As some of you may be under the mistaken thought that I bought any of these, let me put it to rest. No, I have not bought any of these. I also cannot see paying the kind of money they sold for regardless of grade or rarity.

 

As for the grades, the 69's are the first coins of each date and the 70's are the second one pictured.

 

I couldn't possibly tell the difference through the pictures

 

Thank you Tom! Exactly my point! The buyer has to rely on the insert to determine if it's a 69 or 70, as without the coins in-hand (and maybe even with them in-hand), how could one know? And to spend over $1000 based on a picture and a insert????????????

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I wonder if the '70 would grade '70 if you ran it back through the grading service? IMO, people are just buying plastic!

Just think of all the different nice coins or currency you could buy for the $500+ paid for that Jefferson Nickel! Boggles my mind! 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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Well you are correct in saying that a MS 69 is almost prefect. In your pictures what I could tell is that the top two of each set was your 69's and the bottom were the 70 . The MS 70's Coins are surpose to be prefect in every aspect. Most Gradeing companys will allow maybe one bag mark or a slight discoloration. But that is generally the limit on the 70's . Also they take into consideration how old the coin is when gradeing them. On your first set you can see visiable difference in the strikeing of the coin especially around the collar the creases are not as visable as in the 70' grading. On your 69 you also have scratches at the top of his head and on the rear of the coin. I will let you figure out what is wrong with the second set.

Not all coins are visiable when you buy them on ebay or any auction site. So like they saying goes buyer beware cause if you can't see the coin close up like in the pictures you showed us than you get what you pay for most of time. The best way to look at coins is not just what is eye appealling to you. You have to look a little deeper, at the strikeing of the coin, weather or not it has spots, brushmarks, dings scratches on it, and keep a mental note as to how it is surpose to look with out flaws before you make your decission to buy. The only way to not be taken is to educate your self on the coins you are buying . And remember not all grading companys grade the same. I have gotten MS70s with several scratches on them. So again look a little bit deeper than the shine of the coin. Pleo thumbsup2.gif

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As some of you may be under the mistaken thought that I bought any of these, let me put it to rest. No, I have not bought any of these. I also cannot see paying the kind of money they sold for regardless of grade or rarity.

 

As for the grades, the 69's are the first coins of each date and the 70's are the second one pictured.

 

I couldn't possibly tell the difference through the pictures

 

Thank you Tom! Exactly my point! The buyer has to rely on the insert to determine if it's a 69 or 70, as without the coins in-hand (and maybe even with them in-hand), how could one know? And to spend over $1000 based on a picture and a insert????????????

 

In my honest opinion, since I know who the wannabes are and those collectors who have registry collections! (Isn't it funny to watch a pop top coin go for rediculous money and then watch them enter that coin into their registry sets seconds after the auction is over! And recently, those charactors have found a way to hide what they just won and added to their grids) The minority of those charactors (and they are the true coin collectors) will take that hard look at that pop top coin they won, once it arrives in their mailbox and make sure it's a quality mint state coin at any grade! If you are looking for a MS70 coin then you need to multi-check it no matter what the number says on the slab, be it MS68, 69 or 70!

Do your homework man and don't lie down like some scared pup because your slabbed MS70 coin has a flaw and it's not a MS70 coin as some grading service has opinionated it to be. Return that sucker headbang.gif and check out a few others until you have that coin in hand that is flawless as a MS70 coin is supposed to be!

Hallelujah brothers hail.gif, can you feel the earth shake on this one? Amen!

 

Leo 27_laughing.gif

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